Lurky

In Valve games, commentary is off by default, and you have to turn it on manually. No reason to worry about immersion. Additionally, in Valve games, commentary only activates when you've already beaten that level (at least in Portal). Maybe they'll unlock the option to turn it on after you beat the game once? In that case, if you decide to activate the commentary you'll know what's being described anyway.

Why not? Because that would limit the kind of character content you can experience with a given PC. Since many people feel strongly about romances, this would not go well. Clearly, the only solution here is to make the romanceable companion from a changeling-like race (godlike subrace?). If the NPC can change gender at the player's will, all combinations are covered! Universal Romance? Haha (Come on, I was joking. I put a smiley and everything.)

Seriously though, I posted here a suggestion that I think would benefit this topic. At least tell me you read it, even if it's to tell me that I suck :|

Why not? Because that would limit the kind of character content you can experience with a given PC. Since many people feel strongly about romances, this would not go well. Clearly, the only solution here is to make the romanceable companion from a changeling-like race (godlike subrace?). If the NPC can change gender at the player's will, all combinations are covered!

I think we're handling this the wrong way. People who favour romance and people who don't usually agree on the fact that friendships and other kinds of relationships should be in the game. If that's the case, why should romances get the spotlight on the forums, with threads solely for their discussion? Why not make a thread for relationships in general? Or, to be more precise, a thread for companion interactions in general (since that's the kind of romance usually discussed). I think it would solve most of the problems these threads usually have: 1) Chris Avellone already said that the game would feature "a variety of mature relationships". This does not equate "we will have romances for sure", because it turns out that humans can connect with each other in ways that do not involve romantic love (such as close friendships, brothers in arms, sibling-like, mentor-student, competitive camaraderie... the list is long). By making clear in the OP that this type of thread would be for equal discussion of all kinds of relationships and interactions, we are being truer to the way the devs are approaching this topic. This means that gathering feedback could be easier and more accurate for them. 2) By having threads focusing on the romance, either as the only topic or as the main topic, you're giving the wrong message: it gives the impression that romances are the best form of relationship to be had between characters, that if you want a close connection with them romances are the only way to go (and many people actually show this view, when they defend romances by praising the virtues of close relationships in general). This is a big source of irritation for many people (including me): it's a fundamental disagreement with the notion that "close relationship = romance", and this is a major reason why romance threads are met with hostility. By making clear in the OP that this type of thread would be for equal discussion of all kinds of relationships and interactions, you would remove a major source of annoyance. And I think it would benefit everyone: the people who dislike romances can talk about other interactions they want to see in the game, and people who want to talk about romances can do so without feeling harassed (as long as they're not overbearing about it). 3) As an extension of the above point, this whole "close relationship = romance" notion is the approach used by many Bioware games, and the mere association with them is enough to annoy many people. Either because they despise what Bioware games have become lately, or because they despise the kind of fans they attract and don't want theme here, this approach is also a major reason why romance threads are met with hostility. By making clear in the OP that this type of thread would be for equal discussion of all kinds of relationships and interactions, without any particular focus on romances, you would remove another major source of annoyance. By taking a different approach, different to Bioware games and the romance threads of the Bioware fans on the BSN, I think it's likely that many people would stop making that association. Calming down the levels of worry would be helpful for everyone, in my opinion. Honestly, the "screw the haters" approach hasn't worked, and the "silence the haters" approach isn't too effective either, because people won't stop feeling annoyed and will probably feel more hostile if they're told to shut up (not to mention that it takes a lot of work for the mods to mantain peace). Why not try something different? Keeping a thread for general discussion could certainly be more productive than several threads that always retread the same points over and over. Personally, I think it's worth a try. Thoughts?

You guys didn't read the thread before posting, right? They confirmed mature relationships. Mature relationship != romance. http://forums.obsidi...60#entry1247996 Here are some reasons. http://forums.obsidi...80#entry1248118

The problem is, the existence of romances usually means that the friendship path suffers; it either feels awkward or very short. It's no wonder that many people oppose romances if their existence means that the alternative content is going to be lacking. Besides, some romance fans are either annoying, obsessive, or just pathetic, in a "junkie suffering withdrawal" kind of way. Most of them are found on the BSN, but there is the fear that they could come to these forums and bring their habits with them, if romances were confirmed to be implemented in the game. Those are basically the two factors why I think romances are so violently opposed.

And I am hoping for deep, meaningful connections with characters that lead into a variety of close relationships, with romances being only one possible outcome if it fits the characters. Bromances and camaraderie should be other possible outcomes, and they should be equally satisfying (We have to keep supporting this view against the onslaught of "close relationship = romance" implications that some people make, you know. At least most of you aren't making the assumption that "romance = sex").

This is the best summary ever

Oh, I know that he didn't say that. I extrapolated it to make the point that what he said doesn't really apply to this topic And there is the crux of this whole matter. When a character is romanceable, the friendship path usually suffers. Both paths should be equally fulfilling. Granted, many people in this thread are saying the same thing, and I'm glad for that. But some don't, like those who talk about romantic love as if it were the only kind of close relationship possible, or the best and most fulfilling one. And that irks me, just like the people who don't want romances irk those of you who want them. Which is why I wanted to speak out.

You know, that can be fulfilled perfectly with a deep friendship too. Why does that have to be romance exclusive? Seriously, that's a big reason why so many people dislike romances. They take all our close relationships and leave those of us who aren't interested in romances starving Yeah. Even in real life people can live without love. But it's not a good life, at least I think it isn't. Romantic love is not the only type of love that exists. It's the one that gets the most media representation, and the one that is most commonly asked for, but there are others that many times get ignored in its place. And that is a bad thing. Also, I'm fairly certain that people who identify as aromantic would highly disagree with you, on the whole "if you don't have (romantic) love you're not living life to the fullest". Not to mention that we're not talking about life, we're talking about a game. What if I, the player, am not interested in pursuing a videogame romance? Are you saying that my way to play the game is not a good one?

You know, that can be fulfilled perfectly with a deep friendship too. Why does that have to be romance exclusive? Seriously, that's a big reason why so many people dislike romances. They take all our close relationships and leave those of us who aren't interested in romances starving

Ah, but then people complain that they only have one choice for their preferred combination, and that if they don't like the character or the way the romance is executed they have no options. So, the only way to keep almost all people happy would be to provide several distinct options of personality and romance execution for each combination (but you can't go too wild with romance variance, because if some characters have happy romances and others have tragic ones people are going to be jealous). And some people still won't be happy; they'll find that they like the personality and the romance of a character that is unavailable to them but available for other PCs, and they'll campaign to make it available to their preferred PC option "because it can be done (with a good dose of fanwank)". You can see where this is going. You can't please everyone. You have to draw the line somewhere. A basic "one option for each combination" might seem like a good place to draw the line, but I guarantee you that it will not make "almost all people happy". Because that's impossible.

I will be a very happy camper if ciphers can use their soul manipulation abilities in dialogue as well as in combat. It could be like playing Ventrue in VtMB. Dominate was awesome

The idea of that is depressing. I'd hoped the apathetic would be in the majority, by far. The majority is apathetic. We're always the same few people posting here

I'm surprised nobody in all these threads of romance discussion has mentioned changelings yet. I mean, come on. A shapeshifting race would neatly sidestep the pesky "my preferred gender is not available for my character", because they can effectively be anyone's preferred gender :D

I want characters and companions that are diverse and varying yet ultimately satisfying to engage with. Bromances, camaraderie, brother-sister like relationships, mentor-student relationships (and the other way around), competitive-yet-friendly relationships... the list goes on. Romances are one way of interaction, and a unique one if well done, but there's so much more to character interactions that are often overlooked in favor of romance. Ultimately, I want good companions and cool stuff to do in the game. If romances can be done well and flow naturally from the interactions with the characters, I'm all for them. But if they can't, then I would prefer the team to focus on the other ways you can interact with your companions

Avellone already said that they wouldn't be "dark for the sake of dark", for the same reasons you said. Here's the interview. - Well going back to NPC reactions, how deeply will morality enter into plot progression? Just how dark are you looking to go with the narrative? - Dark’s a little boring to me, and it’s also too easy to fall down that hole in storytelling in an attempt to be pseudo-hardcore. Some of our strongest releases kept the dark on the backburner and cloaked it within a blanket of humor, and people responded to both. There is no reason to worry.

Romance junkies don't really "wander out", if they feel they're going to get their fix. I'll be honest, I really don't want the obsessives around. I did some research on the BSN, and I've seen the worst they can offer. The Tali sweat analysis is only the most memorable one, but they can be pretty damn creepy regarding the characters (or their voice actors). I'm not concerned about them influencing the game, but they're still a drag to have around in conversations. As for Chris Avellone's post about romances, it's here.

I just hope they're only mentioning romances as a separate feature for the sake of the people who care about them as a separate feature. Because treating it separately doesn't usually produce good results. It has to be a part of the general character interactions :|

I knew this would happen :\

I don't know about cRPG romance fans. I've enjoyed some of them, but I don't really care if they aren't. Does that make me a mindless drone too? Romance junkies, on the other hand, are probabbly good fodder, yeah. Junkies in general can be so easy to get on your side, aren't they? (Shut up, I'm having fun playing both sides )

You are counting your chicks too. Nothing is confirmed. You know, just saying. You sure forgot my post quickly. Yeah, I've seen this before, too. "Oh, we are only suggesting. Yeah, that's the word. We are not forcing you to please us or anything, but we're going to be very happy if you do it, and disappointed if you don't. And we're going to repeat it to you several times. Just in case you were going to forget that there's a target for this or anything. No pressure". This kind of behavior reeks of emotional blackmail. I'm happy if Obsidian will do it because they want to, but if they do it because they feel pressured to, that's not so good. Oh well. I'm happy with whatever they decide. Really. I will. There are so many things in this project that I'm looking forward to, and none of them involve romances

@dlux: My remark was going for you too, since you jumped to conclusions so early. There is no confirmation one way or another yet. It is possible that they won't see themselves comfortable enough with the funding to tackle them, and decide that it is for the best to drop them. I'm optimistic that they'll get enough funding to try it out, but anything is possible yet. It's very easy now to say "Oh yeah, I'll totally be a good sport when it's announced" when you still think that you're going to get what you want, but being a good sport means accepting loss gracefully too. And that's where most people fail.