Vin

There is a report button. Just ask the mod who deletes this to cut the data and copy it on a cd, then burn(literally) the disk. Unhappily, I'm afraid that only the ban-hammer will do the job, and I don't think that's an option in this case (realistically, people who donated to PE can't be banned from the forums... ). I'd love to engage in a rational debate with the romance opponents -- I'm certainly willing to be convinced that romances would be bad for the games -- but they don't seem have any arguments beyond "Games in the past have included badly done romances -- therefore, including a romance in a game makes it bad" and "If romance is included in a game, it isn't a RPG but I'm not going to tell you what I think an RPG is, either." Ah well, hopefully Oblivion will step in and settle this debate one way or the other soon. Personally, I thought Gargantuan's argument was the best against romance in video games, whether it was their intent to argue against romance in video games or not -- although, I'd make the assumption that they were arguing against it. The part about trying to simulate emotions like those involved in romantic relationship within a video game is kind of creepy. That would be my argument against it as well.

Spamming insults now when out of arguments, aren't we? I'm just saying, if you've never been with a woman before a romance in a game is probably more immersive for someone than someone who has been with a woman. What's wrong with that? Not really insulting. It's like the difference between a boy seeing boobs for the first time and the difference between a man seeing them for the thousandth time. You know what? I could just as easily say that the people who are opposed to romance in games hold that position because they're 30-year old virgins who live in their mother's basement and don't like in-game romances because it reminds them of the pants-****ting terror they experience when they talk to women in real life. I don't make that argument because it would be rude and baseless, but that's essentially what you're doing here. It's dickish. Please stop. Well you could say that but you'd look stupid because most, if not all, of us have been with women. That's why we don't need romances in our video games. Can't you see that? So... I don't want romance in my video games because I've been with a woman... Your post feel slightly contradictory and more than a little ironic.

You know what...you're right. I hope to someday buy a chess set which comes with options for romance. And here I thought I was the only one. See, usually I have to make up the romances as I go along. But if I could buy a chess set that would do it for me...

I would enjoy having the option of making my own party -- in fact, I would enjoy it a lot. Even if the group of companions Obsidian cooks up are the best, most well-rounded and fleshed-out characters in the world of roleplaying games, I still want to be able to make my own characters. Not just craft my own team for the purposes of combat balance and kicking butt, but to build up a dynamic group with differing personalities, opinions, and alignments. And I would roleplay as ALL of them. That's what multiple playthroughs are for, yes? Picking different options?

Oi! You're forgetting the romance options for female characters! Unless the "stone cold traumatized beauty" is a man. In which case I am all on board for that lineup.

This topic scratches the surface of some bigger issues I have with video games and their characters in general. Characters that serve as some kind important plot device and are thus invincible -- not to mention the game will favor the player who makes room for this plot device character, sometimes even to the point of being considerate enough to stick them into the party without the player's consent at all -- are just frustrating. The option for companions to die, whether the player kills them on their own volition or an action the player took earlier -- or didn't take -- will inadvertently cause a companion to die, should most definitely be there. But if a player chooses to off a character there should be repercussions, especially from the other characters. Unless they didn't like the guy you knifed in the back anyways.

I'm definitely indifferent on the subject of gold having weight. It buys me stuff; I will hoard it. That being said, the only thing I'm really curious about is where adventurers keep their gold. Five thousand gold pieces? Really? Where would you put that?

Well, it doesn't have to be a whole game and it doesn't have to be rape. I mean, if you're going to a pirate-infested town, what will you get? Explicit drunks, explicit kid slavery, explicit gore maybe, explicit many others. But will the other towns be like this? Of course not, the other towns might have better law enforcement. Maybe overall, the world is a beautiful place to live. I mean, look at Las Vegas. It's vibrant, colorful sleepless city. You can see the city prospered and and you can have a great time in it. But if you ventured into its underground societies and criminal factions, of course you will also see lots of horrible things. But that only happens IF you ventured and explored them further. And as I said, I have nothing wrong with that. Bring on the filthy, pirate-infested dens of sin. It's when the game goes overboard and slaps the player in the face with how absolutely "hardcore" it is. Then it becomes gimmicky and false. Like a plastic toy someone painted to look dirty. It may appear to gritty and dark, but then you scrape the paint off and it's just plastic. Does that make sense? I'd go into further detail, but it's twelve in the morning and I can feel my brain leaking out through my eyes. As long as it's not so ridiculously explicit that it takes away the realism that comes with real poverty, and real depravity and makes them into little more than a tool to give a video game -- or a book -- a dark and dismal atmosphere. I'm more for implicit poverty and depravity. Subtext is art's best friend. Edit: On a side note -- although, not so much really, since you brought it up -- a city like you described, like Las Vegas, with a seedy and violent underbelly, is something that I would very much love, now that I think about it. I guess there are lines that must not be crossed after all And yeah, I'd like to see cities like Las Vegas in video games. Now that's one complex city hahahhahaha XD Also -- shiny. Which, in a dark fantasy setting, would be a very welcome change.

Well, it doesn't have to be a whole game and it doesn't have to be rape. I mean, if you're going to a pirate-infested town, what will you get? Explicit drunks, explicit kid slavery, explicit gore maybe, explicit many others. But will the other towns be like this? Of course not, the other towns might have better law enforcement. Maybe overall, the world is a beautiful place to live. I mean, look at Las Vegas. It's vibrant, colorful sleepless city. You can see the city prospered and and you can have a great time in it. But if you ventured into its underground societies and criminal factions, of course you will also see lots of horrible things. But that only happens IF you ventured and explored them further. And as I said, I have nothing wrong with that. Bring on the filthy, pirate-infested dens of sin. It's when the game goes overboard and slaps the player in the face with how absolutely "hardcore" it is. Then it becomes gimmicky and false. Like a plastic toy someone painted to look dirty. It may appear to gritty and dark, but then you scrape the paint off and it's just plastic. Does that make sense? I'd go into further detail, but it's twelve in the morning and I can feel my brain leaking out through my eyes. As long as it's not so ridiculously explicit that it takes away the realism that comes with real poverty, and real depravity and makes them into little more than a tool to give a video game -- or a book -- a dark and dismal atmosphere. I'm more for implicit poverty and depravity. Subtext is art's best friend. Edit: On a side note -- although, not so much really, since you brought it up -- a city like you described, like Las Vegas, with a seedy and violent underbelly, is something that I would very much love, now that I think about it.

And ruin my pants? The river it is.

Sure, but... why exactly are my hands smelly and sticky?

It's weird to come onto a forum on the Internet about video games and find so many people opposed to rape being used as a narrative device. And I have to agree. Because, first of all, rape isn't really something that should even be remotely considered as a possible narrative device. I'm not really against dark and gritty realism. I'm a writer myself and as my sister likes to point out I have some incredibly grim, gritty, and hopeless stories. But as it's been posted before, edgy and gritty for the sake of being edgy and gritty is cheap. Rape is an incredibly serious subject that should be handled gently, not plastered in all its horrifying detail onto someone's TV or computer screen to illicit an emotional response or to convince this gamer that this game isn't going to pull its punches: it's visceral, it's "realistic." It's offensive. I'm not against gritty realism. But it shouldn't be used as a shock factor. As some others have posted, the imagination is or can be just as powerful -- sometimes more so -- as being shown the full effect. A dark, atmospheric and mature story is one thing. But there's a thin line there between that and stories that want to be that, but just fall short. And, as a more personal personal opinion, the whole "dark fantasy" charm is starting to wear thin with me.

Personally I couldn't care less about the sexuality of a character, unless it impacts the story or is an integral part of the aforementioned character's personality. Which, sometimes it does impact the story and sometimes it is a major and important part of a character's personality (saving the world is more important, maybe just a little.) But it shouldn't be at the level where during a conversation with some barbarian guy or some spicy rogue-girl they suddenly start telling the protagonist about how they like the same gender -- which is usually around the same point where they fill the PC in on their personal history from the time they were born to the time they joined the PC's little adventuring group. It should be tasteful. It should be subtle. Unless the NPC that is bisexual or homosexual is not a subtle character. But there should never be a "token gay" or a "token black," or a "token male/female fanservice character" just for the sake of inclusiveness. Especially if being gay or being black or being totally hot is the only thing that character has going for them.

I've never had a problem with monsters or bosses having immunity to cold/fire/whatever. It's there -- and sometimes it just springs itself on you and you may want to bang your head on a wall -- but I've never seen it as something that necessarily needs to be fixed. Because a vampire is going to be mostly immune to normal weapons. They're kinda dead, y'know. A creature made of elemental fire isn't going to care about your fun Burning Hands trick. That's sort of self-explanatory. That's how it goes, on and on down the list. Ridiculous amounts of immunity are ridiculous. But for the most part, it's something that should be expected.

^^ This. Very much this.

I'd like a combination of both stat-affected conversation options (i.e. dude with persuade skill has more dialogue options, or has a better chance of succeeding at persuasion) and actually trying to work your way through dialogue by saying the right things, as one of the above poll choices suggested. Because sometimes in games a "persuade ability" turns into some kind of cure-all.

While I don't mind the classical Tolkien-esque fantasy setting, I certainly would not be adverse to something a little fresher. Also because I really want to see some "pacifist demonic hell elves" now.