Stun

<gag> Asking for Kill XP does not equate to asking for a pixel-by-pixel code port of the IE games. But hey, feel free to dishonestly move the goal posts. How can a poll dismissed away as not big enough to be an accurate representation suddenly constitute *bad* news? (or good news, or any news). I'm still trying to get either of you 2 to explain that one to me. But I won't be holding my breath. Since complete nonsense is impossible to explain away by definition.

Attempting to separate nostalgia from the equation suggests you weren't around for even one day of the kickstarter. They sold this project on Nostalgia. It wouldn't have generated half its funding without it. If you really only backed this project for the purposes of getting "something new" (which is a Bullsh*t claim and everyone here knows it), then one wonders why you didn't just throw your money at any of the several dozen super-high publisher funded titles coming out this year and next year. They'll be doing "New" a wee bit better than any $4 million project ever will. They must. It's the main focus of their $50 million+ budgets. But that doesn't matter anyway, does it. Kill XP has exactly NOTHING to do with Nostalgia or the IE games. It's just as much a staple of modern RPGs as it is the old ones. Wait... what? A poll that shows a majority in favor of combat XP undermines the combat XP position? In what alternate reality? Oh, by the way, This is Obsidian we're talking about. The same company that scrapped their Weapon Degradation design for PoE, citing fan disapproval, on LESS than what we're seeing here.

I'm pretty sure the bulk of the gripes on this thread (and all the other XP threads) is about those developer goals themselves, and how presumptuous they are. More to the point: Josh believes that a quest-only XP system will satisfy all playstyles. But if the players themselves are in the middle of playing this 60 hour game and they feel that all the combat they're frequently forced to engage in feels pointless/unrewarding, then it won't matter whether or not Josh's stated goals have actually been met. His design has failed already. Perception is reality in this case and this is something we're going to have to wait and see about, I suppose. But I was *there* when Bobby Null came to these forums during the kickstarter and took feedback from us on a possible Megadungeon to rival Durlag's tower and Watcher's keep - an idea he said the dev team was discussing. And now, a couple years later, we've got a 15 level megadungeon. There is NO WAY they're gonna succeed in recapturing the feel/pace/magic of those dungeon experiences by simply tying everything to Quest XP-only.

^that's already the system in PoE. The Cyclopedia fills in the blanks for each enemy as you fight them. if you have a high lore skill it fills up faster. if you have a low lore skill you have to kill more of the specific type of enemy to get the same amount of information. The only difference is that you don't get any bonuses against that enemy in combat once you have all the information on them. Thus it isn't a trade off. It's also not a tradeoff because feverishly going around killing things just so you can achieve a completely unabridged Cyclopedia will do exactly nothing to advance you from level 1 to level 2.

Sensuki asking Josh Sawyer about the quality of PoE combat in his RPGCodex interview: Josh: "Honestly, I think it will take us a while to exceed the complexity of IWD2 fights. IWD2 and BG2 were built with a lot of tried-and-true scripting functions that programmers and designers developed over previous titles and expansions. Like any other feature, AI in PoE is being built from the ground up, so we have to add layers of complexity over time." Yeah all those people saying herp derp they had better AI in BG2. Why is the AI so ****ty in PoE 15 years later. Its like saying herp derp why cant you build a proper moon rocket... they build the first one 50 years ago! LOL terrible analogy. We've got dune buggies driving around on Mars now. We didn't have the technology for that 50 years ago.

Indeed. So lets all stop pretending that "system abuse" is some sort of factor here. It isn't.

which complete ignores that we can sneak past all the spiders in the cave. No it doesn't. It merely proves false the claim (yours) that the quest can be completed via stealth, since combat is required before reaching the ogre, and more relevantly, before receiving a single experience point for that quest. If you wish to change your False claim to one more accurate like: "Well, OK, The Quest-XP only system may require some players to alter their playstyles sometimes in order to receive XP. No system is perfect heheheh", then fine. Not sure your ego will allow that though. It's not a matter of trying. They block a map transition. You can lure them away from it then try run in without fighting them (not sure if that works), but regardless, that will require that you deactivate stealth. It does for your claim. You can't sneak past the spiders, so your question is meaningless and the point remains: There are no quests in this beta that can be completed via stealth, So the claim that the Quest-XP system rewards all playstyles is false and one who chooses Stealth as a playstyle cannot receive XP for it in this beta. He must first change his play style. In fact, even if you COULD stealth past all the insects and spiders, you STILL can't complete that quest with stealth since the game forces a *visible* confrontation with the ogre AND forces a dialogue with him. In order for a stealth playstyle to work in your system, the quest itself has to be specifically geared towards stealth. ie. It has to be, like, a heist-type quest where you are tasked with recovering/stealing an item and returning to the quest giver without being seen or forced into any confrontation with anyone along the way. Those are *YOUR* perameters, Gromnir. That is the Bar you set previously when we were debating Combat XP, when I was pointing out to you why it's fundamentally impossible to reward XP for stealthing past encounters in a combat XP-only system.

^No. In a balance-first type of game, you either 1)keep your balance and avoid falling or 2) you will lose your balance but land on both feet. No pillows needed in either case Question: will we be able to enchant the piglet?

Nope. You can't sneak past the spiders, as they *physically* block the entrance to the ogre cave. They must be removed if you wish to enter the cave and complete the Ogre quest. You also can't stealthily complete the Dragon Egg quest because the conversation with the mercenary party that guards the nest auto-triggers when you approach. The missing daughter quest can't be completed via stealth due to dialogue triggers as well, and the Nymtha quest can't be completed via stealth because first it requires dialogue, and then if the dialogue fails, it requires combat. We weren't discussing whether or not you can use stealth, but whether or not the Quest-only XP system rewards the stealth playstyle. Nope. Just poking giant holes in your feeble argument, and all the witless insults you toss don't change that.

It'd be more accurate to say that Josh changed the design. Because just a few months ago This was the plan But apparently it was neither difficult nor expensive to change course, and balance each XP reward, for every quest, in every area of the game to account for each of the six party number size choices the player has. Yet we are lead to believe that adding XP rewards for this game's hand placed encounters and then balancing the game around that too, is too difficult and would lead Obsidian to...bankruptcy or cause its employees to suffer post traumatic stress disorder, or whatever nonsensical gibberish Gromnir is spouting today.

And I'm still mystified by Gromnir's inability to grasp the concept behind loss of Quest XP for the Stealthy playstyle but not for, say, talking. Especially since he seems to be championing the false notion that the Quest XP-only system rewards all playstyles equally. And then of course, the utter subject-changing and red herrings he'd respond with whenever ANYONE pointed this out to him. (well, that part's not so mystifying) Hey Gromnir, Can you complete any quest in the beta via stealth?

I stand corrected. Also: Yuck!

Link?

Correct. It should not grant XP on its own in either case. It already grants none in either case. You cannot complete any quests in this beta via stealth, for example. And what available Gameplay style in PoE would it discourage exactly? I'm a gamer. The amount of developer 'hard work' is not relevant to me. I do not judge how fun a feature is by "how long it took the devs implement it". OK, I didn't want to bring this up earlier since we already had enough to discuss, but since you insist on parroting the company line without thinking it through... You have NO IDEA whether or not the system currently in place will actually be balanced. As it stands, XP is shared in this game, meaning a party of 6 will advance at a much slower pace than a party of 3...or a soloer. They *admittedly* did not take this into account when they designed the quest system. So you want a *PERFECT* example of quest XP exploitation? There it is. Take a party of 6. Do all your combat from point A to point B in a quest. Then, just before you get your XP reward for completing the quest, Dismiss everyone but your Main character. BOOM You've just gamed the system. Your main toon will reach the level 12 cap halfway through the game (or even sooner). And the end result will be an over-powered main toon. all his non-combat skills will be higher than they should be, causing him to never fail any of the scripted events checks or dialogue options, etc.

If you miss a lot do you get a perk called "shooting blanks"? Also: -Can you enchant that codpiece mounted revolver? -What will the reloading animation look like? -Which attribute will affect its damage? Might? Resolve? Constitution?

Yeah, I think I pointed this out to Gromnir no less than 27 times, but hey, why bother actually addressing someone's formidable point when you can just make up your own flimsy point and then shoot it down with ease at the same time as people watch. So does Josh. Stealth is one of those "ways and means" skills that he alludes to in his post. You can use stealth IN combat, so if a system has kill XP, it already takes stealth gameplay into account.

There were story/narrative reasons for the importance of wisdom. And you're splitting hairs. If that's really a point of contention for you, then you ain't got a case. They could just adopt an XP system like PS:T's only without Wisdom bonuses to XP. I switched to PS:T because it's a better example, and serves as a fairer compromise (there's more non-combat XP in PS:T). But you know what? I didn't have to. And I regret conceding even that much. Because BG2's system is STILL better than the dumbed down, Lazy, Developer-first system you're advocating.

I suspect that rogue is going to be one of those classes that becomes a lot more fun to play when you deck them out with magic gear (like fighters are in the IE games). On the "lame itemization" thread Josh said that you'll be able to enchant your weapons with the various status effects (daze, stun, hobble etc). Well? Equip your rogue with a pair of weapons that cause those status effects and he'll become an absolute beast, one sneak attack after another. That sounds super fun to me!

that has been done literal hundreds o' times in multiple threads, and Gromnir is simply repeating. folks who don't kill get less xp than those who do.... Since we're discussing PS:T's system, I'm not sure you realize just how hilarious that argument sounds. Doing the Drowned Nations "XP Double Dip" will net you an extra 4000 or so XP.....in a game where a 3 minute conversation with Ravel a few hours later can net you 750,000 XP + 2 points of Wisdom. I made no such claim. I specifically said we shouldn't get XP for stealthing past encounters, since you ALSO cannot solve quests in the POE beta via stealth. As for your system being easy for the developers and mine being harder.... Yeah so what. I'm not a developer. I'm a gamer. Tell me why I should care. I'm a patient guy, I'll gladly accept a 6 month delay in return for a NON CRAP XP system.

is so difficult to tell if you is being intentional obtuse for effect, or not. perplexing. *sigh* is not a "nuh-uh" argument. is axiomatic that NOT making any attempt to balance is easier than attempting to balance a myriad different xp award types. quest xp does not make any attempt to balance. it is therefore less resource intensive than ANY xp mechanic that attempts to do so. this should be so obvious that it is beyond question, but somehow it ain't. Explain how Kill XP imbalances PS:T... instead of DODGING the question again for the 3rd time

Several problems with that. 1) This does not take into account Forced combat encounters (of which Josh assured us there would be many.) 2) This system does not reward intelligent character building over non-intelligent character building since it's designed to reward all builds equally (Hello Casual gamer! Hello, dumbed down, idiot-proof game design!) 3) This system renders 80% of the game pointless. 4) This system doesn't actually address the legitimate gripe from players that receiving no xp for kills will make combat feel pointless (see #3 for emphasis) 5)This system does not factor in Loot placement and the effect it will have on players making game play choices. This system is Garbage. Stop defending crap game design.

And... No rebuttal. You've just spouted out a simple "nuh-uh!". You haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it and why. Here, let me help you out. In the Drown Nations, you can do the Undead priest guy's quests, receive XP for them, and then run straight to the Rat Catacombs and receive Many-as-One's quest....which will require to pretty much kill everyone in the Drown nations (XP Double dip #1). But then you can return to Many-As-One, Show them them the Silent King's Skull and get XP for it.... and then Turn around and Kill Many-As-One (XP Double Dip #2). Oh wait....Those aren't double dips at all. Those are LEGITIMATE, Story-based, Roleplaying, options. And if one were stupid enough to argue that such a betrayal-based playstyle is "unfair" because it rewards more XP than the "good, honest route", everyone else who's played PS:T can simply point out the f*cking obvious: that the XP difference isn't enough to matter at all, since you'll be receiving 10x the XP rewards from Pharod when you return from that dungeon with the Bronze Sphere. Yep, PS:T's system is better than the garbage you're proposing. A lot better, since it offers Kill XP and quest XP. ie. it's a win-win. He did say that the exploits would be different, yes? And Those differences will probably manifest themselves in the way of extreme metagaming exploits, unless they make every quest in the game as simplistic and one dimensional as the Ogre quest, where you need not have to actually rely on any build choices to achieve success.

So let me see if I can translate this post of yours. Gromnir wants quest-only XP because quest-only XP insures that Gromnir won't be able to game the system. Fair Enough. If Gromnir can't control himself when playing a computer Game then maybe the developers should Baby sit/police Gromnir. Not sure why the rest of us should be punished, though. I can do a BG2 run without resorting to Spell-writing exploits. Can't Gromnir? Actually This isn't even an argument against Kill XP. This is another dodge. Placing XP value on monsters does not cause XP exploits, provided those critters DIE when you kill them, or go away after you spare them. Yes?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Definitely not my post though. LOL You're dodging.

...then we've got a problem. Giant chunks of pointless content in the game. Pointless content that requires from the player just as much thinking, just as much time, just as much planning, just as much use of character builds, just as much use of character skills, _And_, possibly MORE use of limited player resources. Stealthing past an XP reward means you're deliberately skipping out on it. So of course you shouldn't be rewarded. And this isn't unique. Try stealthing past the Ogre then returning to the farmer. You'll get exactly the same result: NOTHING. 0 xp. because you haven't completed the quest yet. There are several answers to this question. 1) Because this is a combat focused game 2) Because Unlike Combat, in this game Stealth is an aspect of the Mechanics skill (or is it Athletics? I forget), and if we reward stealth XP we will need to reward Lore XP, and athletics XP, and trap disarming XP, and Lockpicking XP, and swimming XP, and jumping XP, and climbing XP, and arm wrestling XP etc. That is, if we wish to be fair. 3) Because stealth is too specifically imbalanced vis-à-vis the classes. It is a tool that Rogues have an advantage with. By rewarding XP for stealth you are giving them an advantage over the other classes. Planescape Torment's system, minus the meta-gaming exploits. I would suggest NPCs/monsters who are dealt with non-violently during the course of a quest/task/objective be worth zero XP for anyone who attempts to double-dip the rewards after initially completing the quest.