Darth Trethon
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Posts posted by Darth Trethon
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Don't get me wrong I do have a bit of sympathy but at the end of the day the Kickstarter game development model isn't all that different to many walks of life, e.g. If I was to dramatically undercost a project in my job the work would have to be completed (for a loss) but I would be sacked, simple as.
Well, Kickstarted money probably cant be called "costs", since a large chunk of it (what isn't spent on rewards) is free money with some vague strings attached. And, since developers can get money from other sources, this sort of deal is amazing for them. Before crowdfunding, only socially beneficial (and also military and scientific, I guess) projects would get this level of support from anyone.
I guess my point is that the scenario in which this becomes "normal", at least within certain game genres, is terrifying to me. Even now studios ask for more money after already going through what they got for free. And then we get stuff like Broken Age with it's questionable gameplay and 4 hour length of it's first half.
Ideally, of course, when a studio gets their revenues from a successful kickstarted project, they'd finance themselves from that point on, but even now studios, including Obsidian, Double Fine and inXile, either have multiple crowdfunded projects or are currently planning to announce them. While not even being close to releasing a previous one, no less.
Small teams are better at using crowdfunding, I think. The Banner Saga turned out good, and they got relatively little money from KS in the first place.
I don't have a problem backing Obsidian or InXile for their next project before the first is out if solid progress is shown and InXile has more than satisfied I think. It's ok to help them get going on a few games at once if it prevents devs from getting fired while they get their first ball rolling. From there, once their games are out and solid gold I very much hope to see them succeed and continue working fully independent. Nonetheless for as long as the games are good I'll back if needed.
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I have to admit I have very high hopes for this game, perhaps unreasonably so, i never backed Shadowruns as i got the feeling it may have came out a bit linear.
Wasteland 2 however appears to be shaping up very nicely, as is Divinity:Original Sin (though that was almost in alpha when the KS started), I'm also not worried about Torment as Inexile seem to know what they're doing if Wasteland is anything to go by.
The only punt I've really taken imo was with "The Mandate" but even that looks to be on target.
Edit: also never back Massive Chalice despite the wonderful concept due to the developers track history, I hope it works out for them tho.
Yes, I was trying to make this point earlier. Developers like Obsidian, InXile and Larian are solid guys, I can back them with absolute confidence that amazing things will happen and never have a trace of doubt. You can't compare their Kicksarter campaigns to other successful campaigns....you have to look at who is making the game.
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They were both shams......Shadowrun Returns had the DRM scandal when they intended to pull some shady shenanigans on their backers and turn all the DLC the backers funded ass stretch goals for a DRM-free game into content only to be sold via Steam, essentially cheating everyone and forcing everyone to start worshiping DRM.
And all there has to be said about Broken Age is "Tim Schafer".....that should require no explanation and should instantly kill all expectations for that game. The dude grossly miss-managed 800%+ funding and decided to only make half a game in hopes it would make enough overblown profits for him to miss-manage in order to create the second half....and then he was trolling and insulting backers who were upset at the fact that now the second half of the game may never see the light of day and all the backer funds will end up as wasted on a crappy half game.
I had a bad feeling about both of those shams from the start, I just didn't feel like they deserved to be trusted with money, I was right and I am proud to say neither will ever see a cent from me.
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I just disagree. I would rather have a continuing sequel where the character grows in power and continues to explore the depths of the realm.
The lack of transferred choices really doesn't bother me as much as starting a new character from beginning every single time.
The way you feel about lack of transferred choice is the way i feel about starting a new character: "what was the point of me playing the prequel?"
In every game with save transfer you practically start from beginning with almost none of your progression recognised and it's not recognised in the sequel either. So you basically start new character and new story everytime anyway. So there is no point anyway.
Asking for the transfer of every single choice you make in the previous games is simply asking too much. It's impossible.
It can't be done unless you have an unlimited budget and make a game twice as long as any of the IE series.
However at least in the sequels you have "some" transferable options. In stand alone games you already have none.
Exactly. Do it right or don't do it at all. It will just create more headache for the devs and render most of player's choices meaningless which renders the whole choice-and-consequence system meaningless and therefore the prequel game itself is meaningless. Every game in PoE universe should be independant and have a complete story. That way we'll get at least a single great game instead of many decent (or not so decent) ones.
People who criticize ME ending and praise Planescape Torment really contradict themselves.No, they don't. Torment was a game from a whole different gaming generation and delivered everything it promised. But it's another example why constraints of franchise are harmful to this type of games. Devs at the time had to work within limits of existing Forgotten Realms lore so they could not give total freedom to player.
ME on another hand was a new IP. Bioware had the power and budget to shape the trilogy however they wanted without any limitations. And in the end they did what they did... They failed to deliver promised expanding interactive universe that changed from game to game according to to player's choices and gave a Deus Ex rip-off ending on top of that adding insult to injury.
i don't think you can fit such a huge story in to a single game with the budget they are working with, or without sacrificing most of the combat.
The point of new IP is Obsidian can do whatever they want without any preexisting constraints. Holding back for sequels hurt ME and it's going to hurt PoE much more because of the tight budget. What truly matters is making a great game and chances of that happening are much higher if devs are completely focused on the current project instead of worriing about what they are gonna do in the future.
THIS^^^
The very idea that a game would have any bit held back because of sequel considerations sickens me. The ONLY reason I love Obsidian is because they don't play the sequel bulls*** game and they deliver the best branching experiences, meaningful choices and epic stories in single games.
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it would cheapen and diminish the experience for everyone
your opinion
Yes it would. The second that the statement "This would be more epic executed this way." is followed by "Let's not go there because we need the sequel to appear better or at least equal." the experience has just been cheapened.
That is as absolute a fact as you can get. We've seen this bulls*** again and again.....more popularly with BioWare who made all choices inconsequential in their games because of sequel considerations. The best thing about Obsidian is that they never work considering sequels.....they do not fear branching the ending in so many directions that a proper sequel would literally require different games to properly accommodate player choice. So don't give me that bulls*** that it wouldn't cheapen the experience or that it's "opinion"
It's not opinion, it HARD F****** FACT.
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Absolutely not!!! F*** that!! Deliberately lowering the scope of the game or dumbing it down because of sequels is f****** idiotic....it would cheapen and diminish the experience for everyone. I couldn't give a s*** less about sequels, f*** sequels....just make this game the best it can be and that's it. I don't care if it's the best thing since Jesus and walks on water, leave it alone. Make another grand and amazing game that's even better under a new IP.
What's all the obsession with sequels? Now gamer are only asking for games to be cheapened and dumbed down.....have you lost your minds? There is NO excuse for threads like this, NO acceptable reasoning or explanation for this crap.
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This thread basically looks like 12 pages of speculation. Do we have any solid information about this supposed new title yet?
Are you speculating as to whether or not this thread is 12 pages of speculation?
Yes!
Seeing that pages 11 and 12 seemed to be of the speculatory variety, I provided my own level of speculation as to the contents of pages 1 - 10!
Well Obsidian has stated intent to start another Kickstarter once they can show PoE in a playable state....which would be later this year. But no decision or announcement has been made about what title or game would be next but they did say it's likely going to be a licensed property....so an IP they don't own but I'm guessing known quantity.
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I think everyone agrees that everything related to TOR(novels, comics, the idiotic MMO and so on) is complete and utter garbage. Lucas botched everything.....Disney is erasing some Marvel crap right now so we can only hope that next on the chopping block is all this worthless trash. They need to re-release KotOR I&II, erase all TOR garbage from existence and then make KotOR III from the ground up, clean slate.
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Making Mac version of KOTOR2 is not Obsidian's decision. It all depends on if LucasArts / Disney wants one. The first KOTOR was ported for Mac OSX years ago (a year after the original release?) whereas KOTOR II did not get a Mac port at all. It has been 9 years since the release so I doubt it will ever happen.
Well with BG1&2 getting enhanced editions it's safer to say never say never....but I agree it is highly unlikely. Still, it would be a joy to see anything done with KotOR1&2 that doesn't involve the unspeakable MMO disgrace which shall remain unnamed.
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The fact that Call of Duty was even included in the poll kindof undermines your premise of the poll being for serious information gathering in the first place.
You gotta have a net to catch idiots and clueless fools to prevent their votes from polluting the real answer to the real question. This doesn't invalidate the question of the results, the exact opposite is true....it reaffirms the results by keeping parasites out.
They could have given more options like it but it wasn't necessary, COD is enough to catch the mindless hordes and the remaining BioWare fans and.....well....pretty much every kind fool they might have wanted to keep from polluting the results.
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As most Obsidian fans are aware Chris Avellone is very in involved in three game Kickstarter campaigns: Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2 and Torment: Tides of Numenera....and involved in no small measure since he is writing novels, characters and reviewing scripts. That has to be more than a full time job right there.
Except it doesn't end there, then this happened:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/waysidecreations/legend-of-grimrock-the-series
I just kind of ran into this kickstarter video and watched in disbelief.....during the presentation video at about the 2:10 mark I see this dude that looks exactly like Chris Avellone and the first thing that crosses my mind is: "What the hell? Is that Chris Avellone? No, no, no I'm tripping, there's no way in hell....he's already working on three different games right now." So I keep watching but I keep thinking there's no way that could be him. And then at 3:13 some dude says "Chris, what do you think?" and I'm just tripping big time at this point, I'm thinking "Chris? Did that dude just call this Avellone twin or something Chris?" I had to rewind a few times to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. I scroll down the main KS page and I run into this:
"Chris Avellone from Obsidian Entertainment (Fallout: New Vegas, Knights of the Old Republic 2) is attached to the series as a writer."
Which of course now it means I have to back the project and all but how is this even possible? Is Obsidian or someone forcing him to like never sleep and just work 24/7 on all these projects or something?
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I hope these games aren't going to be full price at release. I can't imagine the average user spending 60 dollars on a throwback game.
I also wouldn't call Kickstarter totally viable because it prevents a studio from taking risks. Transparency can be a lot of fun, but it can potentially be a ruining factor. Remember when elements of Half Life 2 were leaked on the internet in an unfinished state and the game was totally blasted by players despite not even being finished? Valve ended up scrapping a lot of that material and remains resentful of the event to this day. Similarly, we have seen a few elements of this game that were outside of our comfort zone and saw some vocal elements of the community get very angry about said details. If future games are self financed, we won't have to see them defend themselves over unfinished material and just enjoy games they wanted to make. I think that's a much more desirable end goal than seeing them rely on the community for years to come. We'll likely never see anything BUT Black Isle throwback games if that's the case.
These "throwback" games are far more exciting than anything I've seen come out of the AAA industry for a very long time. Just watching the Wasteland 2 beta gameplay on youtube it seems quite clear these games will be A LOT better than any grand-selling title we'll see for a long time. Don't get me wrong I love games like The Last of Us, GTA V, Assassins Creed IV and so on as much as anyone else but they just don't provide the amazing feeling of exploration of games like these ones. Torment, PoE and Wasteland 2 go far beyond anything I'd expect of a AAA game.
The main reason why they aren't $60 is because they'll mainly be digital releases only outside of the KS backers and slacker backers that get physical versions before release.
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Thanks a lot for everything you guys do, enjoy the holiday break.
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The problem with investors is, for every dollar you get up-front from an investor, you've got to earn that much more money above your margin just to make them happy. i.e. if you get 30 million from investors, well... you can't just make a 30-million-dollar quality game instead of a 4-million-dollar quality one. You've got to make a game that earns you enough money to get them back their money PLUS profits, and for there to be money left over for you to have your profits, too. If PoE ends up making 7 million dollars, then that's 3 million above the 4-million cost of making it. Whereas, if they'd gotten investors, who couldn't care less about the game, as long as it makes profits and they get back more than they put in, they'd owe back money.
Basically, this causes a problem at some point, for certain games, because, there are only so many people who want to play a particular type of game. Take Civilization. If you spend 50-million dollars making Civilization, you've got to sell so many copies of the game that you earn much more than 50 million in revenue, so that you can pay your investors' returns, THEN still have made a profit yourself. Meanwhile, only so many people in the world are going to buy Civilization. Doesn't matter how good of quality it is.
And, as for the shine wearing off... If the shine wears off, then the Kickstarter isn't successful, and development doesn't even properly begin, and you move on to some other option. If they just-plain can't make, for example, isometric-style party-based RPGs anymore, then they can't. If there's no demand, there's no demand. Getting a bunch of investors doesn't help that. Because, if enough people don't want to Kickstart a game, there probably aren't enough people out there to want to buy it if it was funded any other way (again, to satisfy investors AND developer profits). It's not 1:1, obviously, but out of the total number of people interested in paying money for a given product (that's not even a necessary product, mind you), some percentage of them is going to be willing to fund it up front to prevent it from never being created.
Here's an experiment: Put the next Call of Duty game on Kickstarter, and tell the populous "If you don't help us hit 100 million dollars, there won't be another Call of Duty game" and see how many people fund it.
No, you got this one wrong. The profits off a game don't go to the developer if a publisher is involved. The publisher hires or contracts the studio to make the game so the publisher pays them the salaries and additional costs they agree on and that's it. When the game is released, however good/bad it does, it's all on the publisher.....if the publisher spent 20 mil on the game and it makes 100 mil in profits they keep the profits while if the game goes bust the publisher is left with the financial loss but the studio that actually made the game won't be shut down(unless it's owned by the publisher in which case it could be, for example EA could choose to shut down BioWare) although their reputation may be damaged preventing other publishers from hiring them....but they never pay anything back to the publisher regardless. If the actual developer ever sees any of the profits it's only a tiny amount in the form of a bonus or a small percentage of the profit.
Kickstarter allows the developers to keep their intellectual properties and all the profits a game makes so they are properly awarded for their efforts and if a game does really bad then they can try to return back to kickstarter but it largely depends on how well they pleased their backers and if they damaged their trust and reputation with the game that didn't do so well. So generally speaking everyone will be much happier when funded projects go well. Honest and skilled developers will really succeed through Kickstarter I think.....I am really happy with both Obsidian and inXile right now and for the foreseeable future they sure have my support.
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Two greatest fallacies I see in game endings are:
1) Predetermined approach(impossible odds, some affliction will kill you in time etc.): The "Well that's what this story is about....we told you from the start of the game you're f***** so what did you expect?" approach. Well not this pile of suck....that's for sure.
2) You're the hero: The part where you're forced into the shoes of the good guy or the savior and any choice you may have is limited to your tone of voice(Mass Effect is the most popular example). This pretty much means you amount to nothing more than the typical military drone and usually involves "heroic sacrifice for the greater good" garbage.
Both of these are cliche, overused and most of all complete garbage. Let the player think outside the box and at least feel like he/she is taking matter into his/her own hands no matter what anyone says. Basically just saying: "Yeah whatever, I've heard all about what's possible so I'll go do something that isn't and I'm going to pull it off." The story and plot twists should be there to open unexpected options for the player or to try to make the player reconsider his/her allegiances but never to restrict the player.
Obsidian has done an amazing job with Alpha Protocol and New Vegas in this aspect and that's precisely what makes them so great and amazing....they are not afraid of giving true choice to the player.
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Look, I love both ends of the Light/Dark spectrum as much as the next girl. Whether it's Happiness and Rainbows with a Sprinkling of Unicorn Tears or Personal, Global and Universal Damnation of Everything I Ever Loved. I love it all, but... Realistically speaking? Some stories don't work with a "Happy Ending" vibe. Just like other stories don't really mesh with the whole "World of Eternal Darkness and Desolation" thing that Neverwinter Nights 2 had going on...
Endings can't just be plucked from thin air on a whim, they need to work... They need to fit.
I was trying to replay Dragon Age Origins recently and one thing I notice through-out the entire game is the amount of emphasis on a Grey Warden's responsibilities during a Blight. The sacrifices they have to make. Almost all major NPCs at least off-handedly mention it; Duncan, Alistair, First Enchanter Irving, the Couslands and their men, Leliana... Heck, Wynne goes on about it almost non-stop, you practically have to gag her to make her stop preaching on about Warden sacrifice and the greater good. Well, you know what Wynne? I'm at the Lands Meet and I made exactly zero sacrifices up until this point. All my problems had solutions that ended in immediate happiness and rainbows so I don't know what you're going on abou-
I HAVE TO DO WHAT?! Well, okay... Yeah, I-... I guess that's a right proper sacrifice isn't it? So, this is what all that foreshadowing was building up to? Well, I'm sorry it's come to this. Alistair, you're going to have to take one for the team...... JOKE! Magic fixes everything with an epic loophole out of the blue. And I do mean out of the blue. Because there has been no indication that such a loophole exists. No off-handed comments, no sly remarks, no background rumours or codex entries. Not a single thing in the game that somehow turns this Magical Loophole into a viable ending.
So my Warden's "responsibility", my Warden's "great sacrifice" to end the Blight? That didn't happen. Thanks to magic, Anithae Amell got her happy ending. (At least for the immediate future)
Speaking quite frankly, it irritated the **** out of me.... Not because it was a happy ending, but because it completely disregarded everything you had been told through-out the game and randomly dropped a solution into your lap from bloody nowhere. You cannot completely disregard the story that has been told just so you can shoe-horn a fan service ending into it, whether it's for blissful happiness or crushing despair. An ending can't just be created for the sake of it, it has to shift and change, it needs to evolve from the story.
I have faith in the writers and I don't need them to create the ideal Happy/Sad endings, especially not at the expense of coherent story telling. I just want them to craft endings that make sense, endings that best suit their story.
Edits: because spelling is hard at 1am. Who knew?
I agree that endings must absolutely fit the story and the game but I do not agree of being stuck down a path of doom because such is the story. Most endings have to feel great for the player, empowering and satisfying no matter what their theme may be.....endings can be very dark and still leave the player happy with the way they played out. Plot twists can e amazing but should be used as a catalyst to challenge the player's loyalties and plan of action NOT to give the player a magic way out or to get the player stuck in a certain situation. In the case of Dragon Age the magic way out should have been better incorporated into the story and leave it as an optional thing the player could choose to pursue and discover from the start of the game.
And the non magic ending should have allowed a wider variety of options including the ability to overcome and defeat the Archdemon's soul when it was trying to inhabit your body without dying and perhaps in the process erasing the long-term negative effects of the gray warden disease. A battle of the wills perhaps.....this could be played off as a feat nobody pulled off before and therefore unexpected.
The worst mistake any ending can make is to leave the player resigned to a pre-described fate, f*** that. If they want to implement "you suck" endings they need to make absolutely certain that they only occur to players who really suck(didn't complete most optional content, took no time to explore options and generally just rushed the bullet he/she bit) but even then there should be at least two endings where the player is fully in control for every "you-suck" ending and I mean absolute bare minimum.....preferably there should be four endings where the player is in control for every "screw you" ending.
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Feargus' comments don't really bother me much. Personally, I've never viewed Kickstarter as a viable, long-term solution for financing games. I think if you are Kickstarting all of your games, that means your company has a real weakness when it comes to sustaining a business model.
I'm not following your logic. If you, say, use Kickstarter to finance games that then sells like hot cakes and makes a profit, how is that a problem sustaining a business model? Magazines use subscriptions (and advertisements) to fund their publications and, as a business model, it worked fine for many decades.
If they need it and they deliver I'll keep supporting them on Kickstarter but I think I see his point....or at least part of it. With Kickstarter based games Obsidian will be able to keep the profits from individual sales for what is likely the first time.....I very much hope to see them reach unprecedented success once the game releases. This success would ideally bring them very healthy profits so that they can continue to make games on their own independent of publishers and without needing the help of Kickstarter anymore.
Nonetheless as I mentioned above, as long as the games are good they'll have my support on Kickstarter as well if they need it.
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I'd prefer an open ending really, nothing that changes the fate and order of the universe, so that a potential sequel wouldn't need to take part 500 years into the future and on a different continent just not to take all the endings into account.
Also no deus ex machinas and no ending selection menus 5 minutes before the end, instead it should be influenced by actions and decisions throughout the game.
No. Screw that. If they're going to give the player choice make them meaningful choices. I am sick a tired of the BioWare shenanigans where no choice you ever make has any meaning because of sequels.....F*** SEQUELS. Make a great game with true choice and consequence that fully reflects across the entire game, especially in the ending(because otherwise there is no bloody point to any of it). If then that can be worked into a sequel then great but if not then leave it alone and just make another game altogether, surprise us with another amazing adventure that is new and fresh and has true choices and consequences.
The ONLY reason I backed Obsidian is because they are a very rare kind of developer that still believes and delivers on true and complete choice-consequence systems in their stories. If they let their games degrade into garbage like BioWare did it'd be a damn disgrace.
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I'm wondering what's the point of green ks badges, shouldn't anyone have at least a bronze one?
Not having the green K badge means someone backed after the KS campaign ended and wasn't part of the group of people that made it all possible....the ones that made the Kickstarter campaign successful and without whom we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I don't think that is necessarily true. I kickstarted very early in the campaign, yet when when the backer site came online it was going to make me pay to get the KS badge. No thank you. I put money down for a game, not a vanity sticker.
Maye I'm missing something but as long as you backed via Kickstarter(or during the KS campaign via PayPal) you should get the badge and there's no way to buy it if you didn't as far as I can tell. You can buy the Obsidian Order membership and title for $8 but that doesn't give you the K badge.
If you're supposed to have the K badge but don't you want to post in the pinned thread and/or send a PM to Fionavar. But I seriously doubt there's any way to buy the K badge....either you're supposed to have it or not.
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I'd actually prefer to have an option to turn them off.
You can PM Fionavar and request to have your badges removed if you really want. Someone else did that. But there's no way to just hide them. Still....I like the badges.
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I'm wondering what's the point of green ks badges, shouldn't anyone have at least a bronze one?
Not having the green K badge means someone backed after the KS campaign ended and wasn't part of the group of people that made it all possible....the ones that made the Kickstarter campaign successful and without whom we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It may seem redundant but I like it.
They might not have backed after the KS campaign. I donated during the campaign, though I did so through paypal because kickstarter didn't like me for some reason.
If you backed on PayPal but during the KS campaign you can try sending a PM to Fionavar.....I think you'll still be able to get the K badge once the date of your pledge is confirmed....because you backed during the KS campaign and your pledge counted towards stretch goals and mega dungeon levels and all that.
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I'm wondering what's the point of green ks badges, shouldn't anyone have at least a bronze one?
Not having the green K badge means someone backed after the KS campaign ended and wasn't part of the group of people that made it all possible....the ones that made the Kickstarter campaign successful and without whom we wouldn't be having this conversation.
It may seem redundant but I like it.
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Please do a steampunk RPG. We don't have one of those yet. Something like The Last Exile.
You might be interested in
SteampunkCyberpunk 2077 from CDPR(makers of the witcher series). It's in development and I think they plan to release it in 2015. Even if Obsidian does go for aSteampunkCyberpunk CRPG with their next KS this upcoming March/April it won't likely see a release until sometime in 2016 so look upSteampunkCyberpunk 2077 and see if it catches your eye.Edited to
correct embarrassing mistake.....err....to make the post more awesome that's why.
Errr...
You sure you're not talking about Cyberpunk 2077?
Wait a minute, are you pulling my leg?
lol....you're absolutely right. What can I say? Embarrassing brain-fart? I suppose the only excuse I have is that Cyberpunk is just about the same thing as Steampunk....it's basically a synonym as far as I'm concerned. But no that was a genuine blunder....not an intentional one lol.
Aaaaand fixd.
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Please do a steampunk RPG. We don't have one of those yet. Something like The Last Exile.
You might be interested in
SteampunkCyberpunk 2077 from CDPR(makers of the witcher series). It's in development and I think they plan to release it in 2015. Even if Obsidian does go for aSteampunkCyberpunk CRPG with their next KS this upcoming March/April it won't likely see a release until sometime in 2016 so look upSteampunkCyberpunk 2077 and see if it catches your eye.Edited to
correct embarrassing mistake.....err....to make the post more awesome that's why.
Vote it up ;)
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
Aaaargh....I really wanted to do it but ultimately as the choices narrowed I went for No Man's Sky, that indie game made by just four people was immensely impressive and they suffered a flood on Christmas eve and I just felt like the hype would do them more good rather than to a well established company like Obsidian from which any small sentence is big news and everyone hears about it.