Slowtrain

Were did you get the idea it features Mortal Kombat style killing moves? Funny, I thought that part was the least important part of Hurlie's post.

Instead why not spend a few bucks and enjoy a really excellent game: http://www.amazon.com/System-Shock-2-Pc/dp...063&sr=8-11

I play it on XP all the time.

I think FO3 did some things well, but I like to think of this thread as a place where we can talk about making improvements where FO3 did not do so well. SO it would seem, at least to me, that criticisms of FO3's gameplay are more generally useful and interesting than are praises of said gameplay.

I guess the sudden flurry of the story debate is over? Too bad. I was enjoying that one.

I'm thinking that maybe the word "story" needs to be defined. Certainly, I'm thinking that mkreku and I are defining "story" very differently in this instance. If Stephen King wrote a page of description, describing, from a fly-on the-wall POV, skeletons lying around a bathtub with a radio and a rain bonnet and some dog poo, it might be a very awesome piece of descriptive writing, but it wouldn't be a story. In my opinion.

You know, Pop, I have to say. If you weren't around to constantly remind us how ludicrous our trivial arguments are, I might lose faith. Which makes me wonder of course, why do you come here? Since every trivial argument we engage in is pretty much beneath you? Most of the time the board isn't stupid. It's just when people set their minds to it. Its a gaming board. Arguing endlessly about things that have no real relevance beyond here is part of that. Depending on how relevant one feels an argument is is going to affect how either worthwhile or stupid it is to argue it. For me, the concept of story in a crpg, what it is and what it does, is pretty important. While I am on a gaming board.

One can imagine a story around them, certainly, if one wishes to do so.

You know, Pop, I have to say. If you weren't around to constantly remind us how ludicrous our trivial arguments are, I might lose faith. Which makes me wonder of course, why do you come here? Since every trivial argument we engage in is pretty much beneath you?

Yeah, they're enhancing the game for a few thousand people.. Amazing what they get away with. No one is arguing that they don't enhance the game. No one. Stop beating that drum. No one thinks it would be a better game without them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mise_en_sc%C3%A8ne Dude, come on. No one here is saying they don't have a postive effect on the game. But they are not stories. I could create a story around them in my head if I want to. But then I'm WRITING the story, one possible story, based on one frozen moment. That's all it is, Josh, one frozen moment. Again, I'm not saying its a bad thing. Or not effective at times.

I'm not knocking them for what they are. No one is that I can tell. They add a little something to the game. ALthough I would point out once I've seen many many skeletons laying in various poses on beds, bathtubs, etc surrounded by various items, they stop being interesting. Beth overkilled it pretty bad. But the concept that somehow putting these things around in any way, even a teeny tiny amount, offsets the need for characters and narrative, and action and reaction and consequences etc and so forth. No. Just no. I'm not saying you are saying this, btw. Just responding to your question.

I guess ez mode is better: Hey, no imagination required., and you don't even have to think about what you see. Here is the story, in your face, just like it's TV. Sorry, dude. You seem like a nice sort, but the entire concept is sooooooooooo ludicrous I can't even go there. No offense, hey. ps: those sort of atmospheric things are nice. Cute. Sweet. Etc. I'm not knocking them. They are NOT a story.

lol @ "prop placement" = story telling. Its a sad day for crpgs when story is reduced to a bunch of skeletons gathered around a bathtub. OMG LOOK ITS A STORY. lol. Its amazing what Bethesda gets away with.

Good Lord, man. Why?

I don't buy many games anymore, and I thought The WItcher was a pretty good game, so I decided to go buy the EE as new copy. Treat it as new game, as it were. It was worth it. Havent played it, but was looking at it in the store. So you recommend it? What did you like the most? The least? It might be a little too linear and story based for your tastes. It is somewhat non-linear but not completely sandbox. There is quite a bit of chocie and consquence, but very little right and wrong. COmbat is pretty much Diablo-esque clicking. The skill system is not the greatest or most varied. I would almost call it an adventure game with a lot of combat rather than a crpg.

As much as I loved STALKER:SOC, I felt STALKER:CS was somewhat shoddy and unremarkable. A lot of good fixes were made to the gameplay systems, such as the AI and weapon upgrades, but that was counterbalanced by poorly utilized maps, an even worse story than SOC, loss of the underground maps and locations, almost no additonal enemies and weapons (giving the same weapons, new names doesn't count), and a general loss of atmosphere. The fact that the faction wars are being canned is good news though. I wonder how buggy this game will be? Will it be: a) very buggy b) insanely buggy c) the buggiest game ever made

Stealth kills using most weapons worked fine. Face up FPS combat eh not so much.

*praises Looking Glass* *is sad*

I don't buy many games anymore, and I thought The WItcher was a pretty good game, so I decided to go buy the EE as new copy. Treat it as new game, as it were. It was worth it.

Combat is not very good in DX. Totally agree there. But it was crap in IW as well, so a wash in that area. The mechanics of the games are similar enough that if you loved IW you should play DX. DX does the whole build-your-character-find-your-way-through-levels-to-objective better than IW. Better aug system, skill system, lots of gear options, better levels, more interesting situations. AGain, I am not simply dismissing IW as total crap. I finished it twice. But I finished DX like 5 times and played it through a substantial way probably another 30 times. Also, again, I am not saying DX is a great, perfect game or anything. It's not. There's some stuff about it that really irks me. edit: System Shock 2 is similar in style yet far superior to either one. IMO.

I didn't use VATS much, but when I did I didn't really notice any increased lethality or accuracy of my weapons. The only real thing that VATS did was freeze the enemy in their tracks so you could actually hit them. WHich was useful at point blank range when they were bouncing around like jumping beans. Perhaps adding some of the VATS specific perks later in the game, makes VATS more deadly to the enemies? I never used VATS really, except as a brief "please hold still while I shoot you" thing so I never took any of the VATS perks.

Well, at least they put some kind of check in, vs Oblivion where the lockpicking skill didn't even matter.

Honestly, I don't believe you have much to worry about. (not that you are worrying, really) Yes, it might be SLIGHTLY more story focused than Beth's Fallout 3, but I can't see any main departure from the Big Wasteland To Explore dominant gameplay. As you said earlier, hopefully, we wil get the best of both worlds, an expansive free form world to play around with, but slight more fleshed-out characters and stories and consequences that give the time we spend in that world a bit more resonance. Of course, there is always the chance that Beth gave this project away because they WANT it to be a lot more linear. My guess though is, no. But until Josh talks more openly about the game, all we can do is sit around and ponder the possibilities.

It's a bit odd that you think so highly of Invisible War buy can't get past the first mission of Deus Ex. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything. Its just that Deus Ex is so far a superior game in pretty much every way. Not that DX is perfect; it has problems, but a lot fewer than IW.