BruceVC

I am not sure which one Wals is referring to, to be honest. We seem to have an abundance at this time. Always gets his shorts in a knot over oby, so that must be it. Yeah it must be Oby, Wals always use to take him far too seriously and get annoyed.

So your contribution towards this thread is that people should ignore me , thats ironic because thats a comment that isnt relevant to the thread? But I suppose you wanted to say something so that must make it relevant Did it ever occur to you that this thread isnt exactly active anymore and maybe people enjoy discussing the SJ issue I raise, even if it is to disagree with me I assume you are not suggesting that people on this thread can't think for themselves and they need you to tell them the solution is " just to ignore people who try to derail the conversation" Yes I think people on this thread understand what the ignore function means and how to use it but thanks for explaining it....again

Hi Wals "waves "

Oh stop ....its not like you ever cared about what I said when it came to gender issues. In fact I can't remember a time where you ever supported my posts on SJ developments?

You see now I'm disappointed but not surprised, I was hoping you had real some interest apart from a lame attempt to try to prove I'm a hypocrite...which is exactly what Nonek keeps suggesting So there is no need for me to explain because you don't really care and its waste of my time I blame Nonek for your parroting of his views as he makes sense on loads of topics. I just don't agree with his GG stance...well duh !! I know you guys get on well and are forum friends. I respect that but he is wrong about this and now you are as well

Amen brother. Although the warm cloak of familiarity (D&D) makes me very excited. I don't even understand the terminology in PoE. For example, this is an except from the strategy guide on a dagger: What the hell does that Accuracy even mean? Plus 5 out of what, 100? Do those two stack for a total of +13 Accuracy? What would this be analogous to in D&D terms? Wheres my pants? I normally wouldn't have stated this because I also have NO idea how the ruleset works in PoE but I'll apply myself once I start playing the game plus I know there are many people on these forums I could ask who really really understand the PoE ruleset like Sensuki, Stun or Tigranes

I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them. And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice You've previously admitted to using the services of prostitutes Bruce. Nonek is calling your frequent attendance of strip clubs hypocritical but stating that it's your choice so he's fine with it, however he finds your use of prostitutes disgusting and hypocritical. Why do you use the services of prostitutes Bruce? I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them. And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice You've previously admitted to using the services of prostitutes Bruce. Nonek is calling your frequent attendance of strip clubs hypocritical but stating that it's your choice so he's fine with it, however he finds your use of prostitutes disgusting and hypocritical. Why do you use the services of prostitutes Bruce? Oh so we are making a big deal about something I said in the past and not focusing on my actual current posts ...okay typically this would be where you guys say a person is now debating in bad faith but I don't mind because I sometimes rehash older points people have made I am not prepared to explain how I know and interact with escorts unless you are really interested? I'll happily explain if is this isn't some stratagem to try to catch me out..so do you really want to know?

I can completely understand Tigranes criticism but he is looking at this type of game from a RPGCodex perspective so they generally would be more pedantic and critical around how developers promote there games if they are perceived to be disingenuous I am just looking to be entertained but obviously the game must be good But its important that we get Tigranes view on why he is disappointed with this game because then I have more information about the overall game

Also they do talk about D&D terms like a DM so its not completely dissimilar to D&D ?

I have been only really discussing strippers and strip clubs, not prostitutes. So I would encourage you to try to at least read my posts before you dispute them. And of course an element of prostitution exists in strip clubs but that's not there focus What you guys don't seem to understand, and I tried to explain this, is that what Nonek is pretending to show concern for is the illegal trafficking of women in the sex industry. I am also concerned with that but the places I go to aren't associated with that type of illegal and iniquitous practice

*Depending on where he lives. Though of course I don't believe he resides in a country like the Netherlands or Germany that legalizes and provides support for prostitutes. Both prostitution and the purchasing of services from prostitutes is illegal in South Africa. So Nonek is correct in this case. Circular arguments, which pretty much happens any time we don't have any happenings. Since when did we start discussing the legality of visiting a strip club as if its relevant? If you think the legality of visiting a strip is what should influence your decision then I suggest you get out more KP All the places I visit are legal entertainment venues, see below http://thegrandrivonia.co.za/ http://www.teazers.co.za/menu.php http://www.lollipoplounge.co.za/door.php?return=/&e=3600

No it doesn't, to be truly disgusted you would have to actually care about what happens to strippers and escorts and we both know you are just feigning " disgust " at the fact that I " say I care about womens rights and go to strip clubs " because you think it proves I'm a hypocrite " which would be a good way to dismiss what I say....I mean who would listen to a hypocrite ? Sorry to disappoint you Nonek but I am not embarrassed or see any hypocrisy by the fact I know strippers..back to he drawing board for you or at least stop bringing it up because I believe I have adequately answered the question

I have travelled and lived in several other countries Bruce, and have over three decades of experience travelling all over the world, your insinuation is factually incorrect as always. I have views on the Ukraine crisis, but they are not simplistic and so I do not air them, there are startling similarities to previous cold war conflicts that do not automatically mean I favour one side excessively. This is an international argument I have seen before, that has born bitter fruit and only harmed the nation caught between ideologies. Only the simplistic believe that this is simple. In terms of your buying women for your amusement Bruce if you insist on discussing it then I shall, paying for strippers to perform for you is hypocritical and in no way contributes to any kind of social justice, but that is your choice and you are free to excuse this in any way you choose. However your admission that you use prostitutes is disgusting, you are aiding a repressive, illegal industry that is extremely harmful to women and is involved in the international drug and human trafficking trade. To then preach to others and say you believe in social justice is hypocritical and downright despicable. Better dead than red Nonek ...better dead than red Sometimes the reasons for political and military conflicts are nuanced and nebulous and it becomes difficult to comment as a person doesn't want to be seen to be unfairly criticizing a particular country But Russian interference in Ukraine is not one of those examples and because it is relevant to the UK and the EU I'm surprised you suddenly don't have a opinion, I mean you have an opinion on basically everything else But I am more concerned with your view that you may favor Russia in this development ? Considering the fact you are a proud Brit who also is informed about world events I find this view most incongruous? Now back to the strippers discussion, I consider the girls I know in the industry to be friends in the party scene. So I have a real relationship with them that I can imagine is difficult to believe or understand. And you right Nonek, I dont go to strip clubs to discuss SJ issues with the strippers. They would get annoyed with me and think I was being patronizing if I said to them " do you girls know that you aren't helping the greater cause of reducing the objectification of women in society by working in a strip club " Sorry Nonek I'm not perfect and can't always raise and enforce SJ issues. Sometimes its just not feasible and in the case of strip clubs its not necessary to raise it when you there

Australia. Why? Interesting, well the main reason being often a persons views on politics is influenced by where he comes from and where he lives. And you are a bit of an enigma because you support equality (SJ issues) but seem critical of the West..and I'm not saying these two points are automatically interchangeable but you think you would be less critical of Western historical injustice, like Colonialism, and more complementary to all the benefits and values a person gets with living in a first world country like Australia? But I know we also haven't gone into great detail about your view on the West but from past discussion it doesn't seem that great ?

Its funny Nonek but when someone says things like " I'd prefer to live here than in the west, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering " this usually comes from someone who lives in a first world country and doesn't really know any other lifestyle. And I'm not judging you, I love the UK and think you are very fortunate to be a citizen of such a progressive and important country. And the UK is also part of the West for purposes of this discussion But you being a citizen of a first world country has obviously blinded you in some areas if you think Putins actions in Ukraine shouldn't be criticized. They must and should be condemned because you need to understand why the West is passing sanctions on Russia as this could have an impact on the UK on some level in the future so you should at least understand the motivation behind the sanctions Also can you stop trying to suggest I am a hypocrite because I say I care about womens rights and also go to strip clubs. I am well aware of your constant attempts to get a reaction from me. You actually tend to repeat this point, using innuendo or course, but you have never bothered to actually ask me if I see the "contradiction ". Also I have always considered this flawed criticism from you to be really petulant and really should be below you intellectually ...at least until you know my official stance But since you asked me in a more polite way I will answer you so you don't have to keep repeating yourself in the hope I will respond I am going to assume you don't go to strip clubs or have friends that are strippers or escorts ?. Because if you did you would know your average strip club doesn't need to use girls that are victims of human trafficking. The girls that come into countries like the UK through cartels and smuggling rings don't work legally, they normally don't have access to there passports and almost all money they make goes to the cartel or there pimp. Its a terrible life and I absolutely reject it The girls I know who work in the industry are there of there own free will, no one controls them and they do that type of work for money to live on I don't judge them at all and there lifestyle choice is completely different to the seedy world of human enslavement you are referring to

No you are missing the point as always Bruce, no culture or nation can claim moral superiority over another, we have many benefits in the west but there are also aspects that are troublesome or unwanted by some nations. We should be celebrating commonality not telling others to how to think and act, or to listen and believe, the famous quote of Goebbels. Enacting and favouring an agenda of hate and derision is harnmful to everybody. Western culture is not sustainable, we massively over consume and there are growing problems with poverty, substance abuse, illiteracy, as well as of course the harmful trade in prostitution which some hypocrital scum still favour even though they lie about believing in SJ issues. The west is not a promised land, it has many benefits but it is not perfect or sustainable. I'd prefer to live here than in the west, but I will not take the moral high ground over Russia, even if they are trying to do so through political maneuvering. Post

Thx

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto? No not at all, I read any article that is relevant and then react to it based on what the message is, how its getting explained and finally does it resonate with me I will never understand how some of guys reacted to that Leigh Alexander article. It fascinates me that people like me took something positive from it yet many people were really offended which then lead to them getting annoyed I do think the reaction to the Leigh Alexander article and the creation of GG was really just a result of years of frustration from gamers by being treated a certain way and being lectured by SJW on what is acceptable in gaming The irony being yes SJ movements are real and influential but not much has changed or will change...so its like you guys reacted more to the suggestion of change than actual change So when we have demonstrated the similarities of destructive lines of thought to one philosophy, but you still think think that one positive and other is not without telling the difference? Oh wow. But those are two different things that you are making the same. I had no real issue with the Alexander article but I did find it a little insulting to white gamers because she generalized and didn't explain properly who she was referring to when she said " gamer " so understandably people who were already annoyed reacted a certain way But come on guys...a few generalizations shouldn't effect us and cause us to feel we need to respond in such a dramatic way? Anyway those other points are ideological statements that applied to Communism...not really the same thing as Leigh Alexanders view on transformation in the gaming industry ?

Nonek you are missing the more relevant point Lets say you right that in the last 200 year the West is directly responsible for million of deaths...as in committing genocide or purges This is not relevant to how the West conducts itself now, so when I say "Western countries are the best countries in the world as there citizens have the best quality of like and therefore this proves that Western ideology is the most effective, it works and can be sustained. Western ideology needs to be emulated to several places around the world that would benefit from its wisdom " I don't expect someone to dispute this by saying "well the American civil war was a brutal affair " You see my point ?

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them So you would be concerned about the "Gamers are dead"-articles if, and only if, they all officially abided by an ethos or from a political manifesto? No not at all, I read any article that is relevant and then react to it based on what the message is, how its getting explained and finally does it resonate with me I will never understand how some of guys reacted to that Leigh Alexander article. It fascinates me that people like me took something positive from it yet many people were really offended which then lead to them getting annoyed I do think the reaction to the Leigh Alexander article and the creation of GG was really just a result of years of frustration from gamers by being treated a certain way and being lectured by SJW on what is acceptable in gaming The irony being yes SJ movements are real and influential but not much has changed or will change...so its like you guys reacted more to the suggestion of change than actual change

Oh I have studied history, or rather I have focused on key areas. But your point is really a moot point, I could say for arguments sake just to be fastidious " in the last 200 years no Western countries have as much blood on there hands as Hitler or Stalin " The reality is we cannot say with absolute certainty how many people were killed in the last 2000 years due to Western influence because accurate records were not kept as opposed to lets say the last 200 years I can say " Stalin killed 20 million of his own people " and I can guarantee you that many people were not killed in the 600 years of the Crusades but that's because there weren't 20 million people alive in the region so it would be an unfair comparison So you wouldn't be able to irrefutably prove "every western nation (if not every nation on Earth) has just as much blood on its hands as every other, study history." ?

Yes they are similar but all these statements would concern me if someone really used them as form of a political manifesto for any group. Thats why that Gramscian article distances itself from them

Germany is now no longer part of the west? No it it is Ah then your statement was utterly wrong and you accept this. Yes I should have worded that sentence better, because what I really meant is that most Western countries don't have the same amount of blood on there hands as your classic dictators like Stalin or Hitler

Germany is now no longer part of the west? No it it is

Sound familiar? I'm not sure what that is but its very irritating with its generalizations and flawed logic No one gives a damn if you find it irritating. Either you put up a counter argument on why old Soviet disinformation campaigns have absolutely no resemblance on to how the anti-GGs argue and what kind rhetoric they employ. Even Baroth can come up with counterarguments with great substance if poked enough, so you do have zero excuses. Either you put up or shut up. You seem to have misunderstood me , I didn't think you guys would be interested in what I don't like about those points. Thats why I didn't comment further, its not that I didn't want to And since you have asked me to respond I gladly will , I thoroughly enjoy these types of debates There is no truth, only competing agendas. 1)Nonsense, there are many truths that have been proven and are irrefutable. For example, Russia is actively involved in Ukraine and Nigeria is having an a hotly contested presidential election tomorrow All Western (and especially American) claims to moral superiority over Communism/Fascism/Islam are vitiated by the West’s history of racism and colonialism.2) Never..not in a million years. Of course the West has aspects of a checkered past but comparing the West to the purges of Stalin or Hitler is just silly and no serious historian will agree with that, its just hyperbole There are no objective standards by which we may judge one culture to be better than another. Anyone who claims that there are such standards is an evil oppressor. 3)Again wrong, we dont pass judgement on the wealth or education of the citizens in other countries. We generally pass judgement on how they treat there citizens and effectively govern there country. And there are still some appalling examples of leadership in the world and there is no way they aren't going to get criticized The prosperity of the West is built on ruthless exploitation of the Third World; therefore Westerners actually deserve to be impoverished and miserable.4 )This is obviously a joke ..and it did make me laugh Crime is the fault of society, not the individual criminal. Poor criminals are entitled to what they take. Submitting to criminal predation is more virtuous than resisting it.5)No if you break the law there must be consequences. The poor are victims. Criminals are victims. And only victims are virtuous. Therefore only the poor and criminals are virtuous. (Rich people can borrow some virtue by identifying with poor people and criminals.) For a virtuous person, violence and war are never justified. It is always better to be a victim than to fight, or even to defend oneself. But ‘oppressed’ people are allowed to use violence anyway; they are merely reflecting the evil of their oppressors. 6)Also funny When confronted with terror, the only moral course for a Westerner is to apologize for past sins, understand the terrorist’s point of view, and make concessions ....in fact is this whole thing suppose to be a joke ? That's more like it. You do realize what i was trying point out the similarities of the underlying philosophy of the people of anti-GG vs. Soviet KGB subversion methods and not you personally? I only realized that later I didn't read the previous posts. But this is just your interpretation of anti-GG right, this is not actually there philosophy...its meant as a joke?