BruceVC

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society Education is such a long term investment that the likelyhood of feeling the effects of that investment before you hit retirement age is low. I think thats what he means. It depends on you what define as " positive return on education " So for example ( and I'm simplifying these points ) If you contribute towards getting getting 100 people educated at University and these people get jobs they contribute towards the tax base for government. When government allocates yearly budgets to municipalities it now has more money so your region could get more money that the local municipality needs to manage to improve the area. Suddenly the dirt road you use to go to work on everyday that has existed for the last 60 years get tarred and is immediately improved. This is a benefit you could see 6-8 years after the initial investment in the education of others If you help fund a persons costs to study medicine and become a GP and once they qualified they open a clinic in the rural area you live, where there has never been a clinic, this is a benefit you could see 8-10 after the initial investment But if your definition of " positive return on education " is government raising the minimum wage this could take much longer and is much more complex objective to achieve that is influenced by other factors outside of education The economic return is likely to take quite a while, as due to educational inflation, BA's aren't worth as much as they used to be and a lot of those kids are going to be making little more than an uneducated labourer for quite a while. I make around 35k per year as an unskilled labourer, and most university educated people I know don't make much more than that. There is a lot of room to grow, but it takes years of experience, or more education to make much more. I also know in Canada, you can write off much of your tuition on your tax returns. I wasted 20k on a 3d modelling class, and didn't pay taxes for 6 years afterwards (by wasted I mean I did nothing with my training, rather than a dig at the school). In the US much of their income will go towards paying off student debt for years to come, so that income isn't driving any sort of economic activity. Education is essential and shouldn't be neglected, but its an investment in the future. You raise some very relevant and accurate points based on your own experiences and living in Canada So just to explain in more detail. I am basing my point in this debate around a premise which can broken down into points like ( this is based on how corporations and big business can see this debate ) a person who applies for a job with a university degree is more likely to get the job than someone who does not have the degree there are many people who dont have degrees but have real experience due to working for years in a particular field and this can be more appreciated and valuable than someone with a degree but no experience in that field a person who joins a corporation straight out of University will generally be seen as someone learning and needs to still be mentored on some levels as they understandably lack practical experience Irrespective of things like paying off personal debt due to education loans the person who gets the job still pays taxes and has spending power and this benefits all of civil society. So yes I am not saying a degree will initially necessarily offer you personal financial benefit or even an improvement of your economic reality but just getting the job does help civil society around things like the tax base

The link below is a nice summary of this important decision http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/uk-citizens-opinion-leaving-european-union-brexit_us_57202862e4b0f309baef33dd I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed more, particularly by our members who live in the UK and EU. The vote is the 23 June 2016 ...very soon in other words I think it would a terrible economic decision for the UK to leave the EU and will also impact the EU on certain levels But I am interested in the personal views of people who live in the EU about what they think about the UK and its contribution towards the EU and then what do people living in the UK think?

This is a good video and makes a good point that I have often said This view that " Trump is going to make the USA great again " is vague and lacks substance around practical implementation. It will also have vastly different definitions to his supporters and what they think Trump can achieve when he becomes president

Fix'd. Now, now. We all know that he who controls the memes, controls the universe. I have mixed views on memes, they can be clever and offer insight but they can also be misunderstood and used as a way to avoid intellectual debate....so sometimes they are just an excuse to avoid unpacking real societal issues I dont think memes should ever been seen as a medium to convey automatic real information because the transfer of information generally needs to be discussed and analyzed..it can be nuanced and once someone explains something you can change your mind. How does a meme do any of that?

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society Well, paraphrasing Constantine: "Let me tell you the secret of science... any **** could do it." Scientific progress is largely built on soul-crushing drudgery. Sure, some will be better at it than others, but if you educate someone decently enough, they will be able to contribute to some extent - the problem is that for any given person, this is going to happen exceedingly slowly, and will only have an exceedingly minuscule impact on the total body of knowledge accumulated by mankind. My point is that the likelihood of any given person funding the education of a world-changing genius whose work will then have a tangible benefit on their lives in return is astronomically small. Yes I agree, Scientific progress is much harder to measure in most countries that have functional governments that are doing there jobs and ensuring good governance But imagine in an impoverished African country where you dont even have electricity or running water in some parts of the country and now through science and the implementation of scientific progress suddenly electricity grids get created this is an immediate advantage of Scientific progress

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society Education is such a long term investment that the likelyhood of feeling the effects of that investment before you hit retirement age is low. I think thats what he means. It depends on you what define as " positive return on education " So for example ( and I'm simplifying these points ) If you contribute towards getting getting 100 people educated at University and these people get jobs they contribute towards the tax base for government. When government allocates yearly budgets to municipalities it now has more money so your region could get more money that the local municipality needs to manage to improve the area. Suddenly the dirt road you use to go to work on everyday that has existed for the last 60 years get tarred and is immediately improved. This is a benefit you could see 6-8 years after the initial investment in the education of others If you help fund a persons costs to study medicine and become a GP and once they qualified they open a clinic in the rural area you live, where there has never been a clinic, this is a benefit you could see 8-10 after the initial investment But if your definition of " positive return on education " is government raising the minimum wage this could take much longer and is much more complex objective to achieve that is influenced by other factors outside of education

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society

The concept and idea that there are " no go areas for police " in Sweden is not true and is based on misinformation and exaggerated and sometimes is intentionally propagated to undermine Sweden as a form of propaganda So dont believe that type of commentary about Sweden

You guys wont believe this but about 15 years ago I also could have worked in the USA but it was a military contract...I always wanted to join the CIA. I had this view of how it was the perfect place for me. I could work independently and bend laws and break them in the name of security of the USA.....I know this is fine as long as its for the safety of your citizens People dont need to know everything...but I didnt apply but I have always admired the CIA, its amazing how they get criticized by so many Americans. No offense to anyone but I would never do that...I see it as unpatriotic Jesus Christ. Most operatives and agents within CIA bend the rules and work they way they do because they have to in order to reach their objectives, not something they take pride in (based on interviews and books by prior agents. Cognitive dissonance and all that taken into account). The fact that you would take some sort of enjoyment out of the methods shows a very sycophant behaviour, usually found in sociopaths. You wouldn't even pass the first vetting as such traits are treated as liabilities, not as assets. Rather i think you would be first in row as a test subject for the following projects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ARTICHOKE Well as you know I'm 41 and I did do 1 year military service in SA How do you know I wasn't already interrogating people in SA and breaking the rules ..... 41? I figured early 20s. Yes people do seem to think I'm younger on these forums.....its a compliment right

You guys wont believe this but about 15 years ago I also could have worked in the USA but it was a military contract...I always wanted to join the CIA. I had this view of how it was the perfect place for me. I could work independently and bend laws and break them in the name of security of the USA.....I know this is fine as long as its for the safety of your citizens People dont need to know everything...but I didnt apply but I have always admired the CIA, its amazing how they get criticized by so many Americans. No offense to anyone but I would never do that...I see it as unpatriotic Jesus Christ. Most operatives and agents within CIA bend the rules and work they way they do because they have to in order to reach their objectives, not something they take pride in (based on interviews and books by prior agents. Cognitive dissonance and all that taken into account). The fact that you would take some sort of enjoyment out of the methods shows a very sycophant behaviour, usually found in sociopaths. You wouldn't even pass the first vetting as such traits are treated as liabilities, not as assets. Rather i think you would be first in row as a test subject for the following projects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ARTICHOKE Well as you know I'm 41 and I did do 1 year military service in SA How do you know I wasn't already interrogating people in SA and breaking the rules .....

...Your education never covered, say, Dante or Petrarca? Dante yes ...but I haven't read Dante for about 12 years

I genuinely have no idea how important it is to have at least a cursory understanding of the Bible for most works studied in an English class, so I really can't comment on that, but I do think having some basic knowledge of Christianity is just as important as having some basic knowledge of Greek and Roman mythology for someone who wants to study European literature. These subjects have been the core pillars of culture and education for centuries here. But why would that matter, I had never read the Bible before and I got my degree Its probably because in Hungary the Bible is considered very important to people ? No, it's because it was very "important" to some of our greatest writers and poets, and to miss allusions to it out of ignorance diminishes one's capacity to engage with the text. But I don't think this is a uniquely Hungarian phenomenon. Fair enough, I am only familiar with modern writers and I didnt realize the Bible had such significance for older writers

"Arguing with Bruce though is less fruitful than attempting to barehandedly move a mountain " Vals come on, you are exaggerating. We use to have many productive debates

how does raising minimum wage makes rich people not grow wealth faster than those on minimal wage? That should work, obviously the person earning more money theoretically will get richer quicker

How would we know.....there is no way I can say with absolute conviction " Volo is NOT right wing " ..I give you benefit of the doubt but its not 100 %

You know I dont have an accent, South Africans are the only English speaking people that speak English without an accent Malc I know Canada is big but how far is Oerwinde and Volo from you?

What? Dont you like the American accent? And dont get cross with me because you have a funny accent ....what will you blame me for next....the 2008 financial crisis

Asking what? Lay off that marijuana Bruce. And yet you still won't acknowledge the big (I would call massive) problems that Indira pointed out. Wowzers dude....lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I need to smoke because it helps me deal with stress....you know how much stress exists in SA? Yes of course I recognize these societal problems in Sweden, our thoughts are with you Indira

Ah Bruce. Even Indira said, "For years and decades to come, this will bring high costs and big problems." You don't want to acknowledge that at all. Also, why don't you send some money? And how do you know if I have or have not an affinity for refugees? All I've said, there is massive problems in Sweden (maybe because I've done some research which you clearly haven't) and Meshugger has been right all along with the likes of people such as yourself who dismiss all this as being nothing serious at all. I'd have to applaud Indira for his honesty as there's at least one other person on this forum who can recognise the problems aren't small and not be so dismissive as to trivialise them as has been shown in this thread. Oh sorry Hiro, I assumed you wanted to get involved which is why you kept asking..my bad

Thanks for sharing, I am glad it isn't a crisis. I admire Sweden for this effort ...I doubt I would be so keen Do you mind if Hiro helps out, he will probably want to send money or he may even fly there as he has a real affinity for the refugees ?

They dont need to really lie about Trump, he normally does controversial and offensive things

I haven't been following the European refugee crisis that much due to real life and stuff. So when I had a spare moment, I decided to sit down and read some things about it and one country in particular (Sweden) kept coming up with some alarming statistics and various other things. I then went back over the last 6 months or so of news reports and interviews, concentrating more on Sweden and comparing to other countries (eg. Norway, FInland) are handling the situation in their countries as well. This is all on the internet and the information is out there. But I think you are right in that if someone brings up Sweden and say it appears they have massive problems, people are now like 'huh, watcha talkin about? haven't heard anything about Sweden, so what's the problem?'. Or they're so used to the problems in countries like Sweden and become desensitised to it all that it's now become normal. No Hiro.....lets be fair. It has some societal and integration issues But to say the problems are massive is hyperbole....remember we want to keep things in perspective

According to Elerond and Bruce, no major problems at all. Nothing to see here folks. Move along. Ask Indira....then you can get an informed view about Sweden. But I think what we know you may assume is serious but we dont ?

Not making them headlines makes sense, apparently SA has got 2 new awards . We are both the murder capital ( 50/day ) and rape capital (350/day ) in the world Now why would you want this information on the front page....its inevitable this crime every day so rather keep it on older pages And yes becoming desentisized is the best way to feel, its not like you dont have emotions but you just dont feel fear or worry. So you go about your life. Its fine and you wont worry so its a good place to be at