BruceVC

Please dont forget because I am genuinely interested in your opinion because I want to share something with you that is a positive but you may already be well aware So go into as much detail as you feel you need ....I can always have more detail in important introspective questions we should all be asking ourselves about what this virus and the reality of the proper lockdown and subsequent " virus best practice " means to us and our views on what defines us It cannot end sooner enough for me, human beings are gregarious creatures by nature and most of us need to interact with other people in different ways. This artificial shutdown and lack of personal connection with everyone correctly wearing masks just makes it more foreign.....so I am predicting until the vaccine becomes mainstream this will be our reality.....its not great especially when you live by yourself and I only see my family 1 in 120 days ...and I dont have long-term friends living in my complex so it gets lonely at times Thank goodness for PC gaming and software tools that allow me to interact with people remotely

Gorthfuscious with the reality of the virus and the global economic impact how do you feel about the world and society in general. For example some well being people in the beginning of the virus use to say things like "this is going to lead to a better world as we all become more compassionate and care more about people in poverty " You normally are a little cynical, which I have to honest I am not sure its true because you dont come across as a truly cynical person, but I am sure our definitions of cynicism will slightly differ But how do you feel now, for example are you concerned with the potential risk to Oz if the virus spreads ?

Fair enough its not convincing to compare what we define as " legitimate crimes " ...you break the law there must be consequences and I support this across the board with obvious extenuating circumstances where applicable and reasonable " wife shoots her husband due to years of abuse .....its not murder and she should not go to jail " But you must realize the Trump presidency has been full of outcomes and actions that have been unprecedented and this is one of them but I am not dismissing it because the respect of law doesnt matter to me or even more absurd blaming things on imaginary problems like the Deep State...... Its because I am almost convinced Trump will lose so I can now see things returning to normal which means we wont ever see this again from a USA president Thats good news for me but the Stone pardon didnt upset me because this is exactly normal Trump irrational but consistent Trump behavior ....its not the normal way any Democratic country would be governed. So I am not justifying it but rather acccepting this as " normal " for Trump when he makes these decisions

Please dont misunderstand me, Stone did commit a crime and I can honestly understand your personal frustration of many of the controversial realities of the Trump presidency because you do understand the law and the Constitution, and you know these work and matter due to your career, and certain things Trump has done can definitely be seen as utter contempt for the Constitution and for me personally he undermined the normal decorum of what being a president means. Many of Trumps real hardcore detractors are lawyers and dislike Trump because of him undermining or abusing the Constitution and this means he undermines core American values....yet he is suppose to the president?? I cant argue with this because people explain the legal issue and it true because these people are qualified and give examples, I would never expect you to agree with my broader point of " Stones pardon isnt such a big deal " because how can you compromise your fundamental beliefs which you know works more than it fails US society This is more of an anomaly in how presidents in the USA behave and its all about the unique reality of the Trump presidency .....it will be over soon so we wont this type of abuse of presidential power so I always ask when these events occur " what does it really mean apart from the obvious blatant Trump logic " Stone did receive a unreasonable pardon but is he really a committed criminal, like a murderer or a drug dealer ? What he did was misplaced support for Trump...its sad and I personally dont like Stones general views around integrity but he is someone who has real international contacts and experience so people sometimes use his services And finally even if you still disagree on the understandable legal principle Trumps legacy is gone forever and everything he felt matters has been eroded by the virus and the economic outcome. He is bitter and even more publicly controversial....but this is all he has now and he will make these types of pardons because he still remembers when it mattered So why get additionally upset by Trump when he is going to do this with even less concern....it just seems a waste of energy considering all the other virus related problems the world and USA is grappling with

I agree with the general sentiment of the importance of the idealism of youth and how this should be constructively managed but I dont think the Cuba story is the same thing. Also you wont find Jewish children dismissive of the holocaust because that history of the Jewish is always taught and accepted by the Jewish people....I have never met any Jew who isnt aware of the holocaust This particular Cuba view is representative of several other narratives that are inaccurate in the world that you still come across. The reoccurring one is this view of Communism\Socialism that it " wasnt so bad " and some university lecturers in SA I know of present "socialism " as a viable alternative to the proven success of the global free market system. Its misplaced because it normally blames inequality on the economic system when many other factors contribute towards people living in poverty I think the young lady has obviously come across this spurious view but it somehow has been associated with the failures of the Cuba. No one is suggesting Communism and Socialism was the same thing, both the USSR and Cuba had very different governments and different definitions of what Communism\Socialism meant but both failed for different reasons ....for example these systems dont allow sustainable and inclusive economies. I do think the Cubans did more good in the interests of a better world than the USSR if I consider there efforts in Africa I personally believe families, who have a legacy and direct connection to parts of history, have a real responsibility to explain to young people how certain events in history have directly impacted them and you need to accept this as your family are well meaning and in most cases are correct . So Im surprised the Dad has not explained the history of the Cuban revolution and how tens of thousands of Cubans were forced to leave Cuba due to Castros policies that were mandatory and basically didnt allow citizens to disagree with the state or question the new economic reality ....even if there were human rights abuses and erosion of human rights Im sure the Dad is well meaning but he should have educated his daughter on the reality of the Cuban revolution .....you cant blame the daughter for misunderstanding issues with Communism and assuming they dont apply to Cuba which is not the reason people question how Castro run the country

I always maintained the best candidate to challenge Trump was going to be Biden, but until the virus I didnt think the Democrats would even win as Trump had some real successes around a more cohesive political strategy and his economic advisors did indeed do something impressive with making the USA economy even stronger. Nowadays I refuse to give Trump intellectual recognition for any successful policy that he had no contribution towards, Trump was always about the theater and how he connects with certain people around some valid issues and he was the reason the Trump base exists which unfortunately has some people in it who vote on what Trump says and they dont reflect on the actual outcomes or truth. I dont think this is how people should make voting decisions in any Democracy The Republicans should have won the election on the success of the USA economy, its not unusual to see this in countries as it is real and matters. But Trump would have misunderstood his victory and I would have been concerned how controversial his next 4 years would have been. I doubt Trump will win and Im glad as Im happy to close the book on the Trump presidency ...you have successes and valid support for him but there is far too much dichotomy and erosion of presidential decorum. It was an very interesting political experiment but it was unnecessary. Lets go back to normal political engagement driven by the established politicians who do care as its a permanent job Im sure Biden will win and I have a few minor concerns with his way of framing some points but its not that extreme and it wont be nearly as bad as the last 4 years of Trumps comments and " alternative facts " and endless inaccurate views on some things. No Biden will never stoop to that level .....Im just worried about a Democratic presidency and some policy changes that will harm and or weaken the USA but Biden not an Democratic:" extremist "like Warren and Bernie. And I like both of them on a personal level but to defeat Trump you shouldn't become the antithesis of Trump but on the left ....it makes some of the Democratic policies more extreme and unnecessarily socialist Also once I started understanding Trumps mannerisms, impulsive nature , ways of engaging and bizarre ways of making exaggerated points you dont get as frustrated because things that actually really matter to a stable world he hasnt been able to undermine. For example any attempt by him to remove Russia sanctions or support Russia in other concerning ways was almost unanimously blocked by the Senate which is basically controlled by traditional Republicans who wont compromise on these types of things and debate this point with Trump but they basically pass a bill or resolution ( I think this is what it is called ) that makes things like reducing Russian sanctions dead...the sanctions have actually correctly increased. This is good news and behavior from the Republican lawmakers I would expect You take this latest Stone pardon, there is no point getting upset with Trump about this as this is exactly what you can expect from Trump...especially around Stone. Trump has often spoken his mind openly about certain issues that other presidents would have not commented on. His usage of Twitter is part of this and sometimes I agree with Trump because he taps into some views people have or a ideological comment that I support ...but I find myself more disappointed with some of his comments Only Trump would be so openly supportive of a person like Stone, its not like Stone is a mass murderer. He has had a long career of success in lobbying and does have global political relationships that can be useful. But he also has had some serious criticisms leveled towards him around how he can cross the line of acceptable political ideas or suggestions but these suggestions resonate with Trump and make sense to him so to him Stone is a good supporter who " understands how to get results " . Stone was always going to get pardoned and I dont see it as such a big deal or another example of Trumps contempt for " legal rulings or judicial sentencing " because quite simply Trump doesn't care about these things because Stone to him was unfairly targeted I am not trying to suggest Stone didn't break the law but I read what he was charged for ... "federal prison to serve a 40-month sentence for seven felonies, including lying to federal investigators, tampering with a witness and impeding a congressional inquiry. He had aggressively lobbied for clemency, both in the courts and on social media " Now of course these are all potentially criminal acts but it was all about the Mueller report and how some of Trumps supporters lied about there own involvement about meeting with Russians. And the Mueller Report did matter because it was relevant who met with the Russians and what was discussed. I didnt believe Trump had a secret personal agreement with Russia but people did cross the line and several people were jailed but Stones crime was more about protecting Trump than calculated criminal act so I can live with his pardon

That Al-Taqwa story is interesting, one of the Victoria spokespeople was saying the increased virus spread is because Oz let 60k citizens return from other countries...Im not sure how accurate this is ?

Gorthfuscious, how is the Victoria lockdown going? Its early days I know but hopefully it slows down the spread and leads to better citizen participation in best virus prevention practice

There are definitely elements in homeless communities prevalent in many countries that fit this profile. I have personally seen this since moving to Cape Town that there are homeless people involved in the crimes you mentioned

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/07/americas/brazil-bolsonaro-positive-coronavirus-intl/index.html The Brazilian president has tested positive for the virus, this is no surprise considering his appalling rejection of the nature of the virus and its spread

Thanks for sharing, I dont understand all the sentiment that Americans feel about the Civil War..I am going to read this detail and maybe ask other questions because there are some things I dont understand about the negative views but it is probably because Im not American Edit : Your post has already been revealing .....the detail is exactly what I need to analysis this historical event

Hurlshot I am a little worried that a liberal and well meaning state like California could alter there history interpretation of the South, in other words the Confederacy will be seen in history as nothing but an attempt to justify slavery and that would paint the entire movement in a negative light Its unlikely and I know you probably have no visibility on this but has this been mentioned ? This will just lead to additional frustration from most Southern states as they will feel vilified which is unnecessary

They cant just erase history, the loss of Confederate soldiers should absolutely matter to people in Southern States. It doesnt mean you support slavery but your ancestors death or commitment is still relevant ....and I cannot believe most people in the South will just accept this Surly we can separate slavery from the fact many Confederate soldiers didnt even own slaves but believed in the doomed cause ....of course the reality is the South breaking away would definitely have weakened the overall USA immeasurably so the South had to lose to ensure a better world with a united USA we all know about ?

Gromnir I am glad you are asking a valid question around the true importance of statues, they do matter and are important in countries that have had a great loss of lives due to events that I will explain. I am not sure this will apply to Confederate statues but in the case of the UK statues like the Cenotaph and Churchill are important And any form of damage like vandalizing or actually trying to destroy the statue will always been seen as unacceptable because of the overall principle I will just use the Cenotaph which is one of the most sacred. It was elected after WW1 as a permanent tribute towards the millions of British soldiers and there allies who died fighting. The outcome of WW1 was the entire old empires of Europe were destroyed forever and a new better world was suppose to be the future....ironically it took WW2 before this lesson was truly learned But the damage done to individual countries after WW1 was the real devastation, in the UK for example the second wave of volunteers were allowed to enlist based on villages, companies and social groups. So you had whole villages being part of the same unit....these units were deployed initially at the Somme which was a real disaster for the British in the first 2 days because the British miscalculated that there massive, unprecedented artillery attack did not destroy much of the German trenches because the Germans had literally designed deep trenches unlike the allies which meant the entire artillery attack actually didnt destroy the German front line at all....the Germans basically went underground The British then after several days deployed there new regiments expecting to find no enemy but the Germans literally came up from there trenches and used there murderous machine guns units to annihilate and kill thousands of British troops who died in no mans lands. In one day the British lost 60k troops ....the actual outcome back home was whole villagers lost all there men due to this mistake Every family basically lost someone in WW1, my own SA family had my great grandfathers brother die at the Somme and our English families lost 2 brothers but there was no such thing as people going unscathed So when the war ended the impossible thought of how to remember all this death was summarized in the Cenotaph, this is why many British people still actively support Armistice day. I have many books about WW1 and there are many tragic losses but I will never forget is a Scottish family who lost 7 out of 8 sons and single crying women at the day of the surrender who was asked " why are you crying ...we won " ..she replied " I lost all my 4 sons in the war and at least I know there deaths werent in vain " So when small groups decide to damage statues like this with no understanding of what they represent it will be never be acceptable for obvious reasons. The irony being many people immigrated to the UK exactly because of the sacrifice this statue means and yet they want to damage it And for countries like France they suffered even more losses

Gorthfuscious please can we have this debate because I enjoy your debating style and I havent been able to have this debate with anyone in a meaningful way? And you have shared interesting links that often explain your personal views around things I may not agree with but once I read the link I can see why you feel that way....like the Oz banks and the bad perception that people feel towards them. So I would like your honest opinion around what you dont agree with And it is specifically about Churchill and should his statue be taken down. But to understand my point you have to try to be objective and ask 2 very important question about any statue that people want to take down. Because certain statues should go but others represent something greater than the need to take them down So the 2 questions about taking any statue down should be What country is the statue in What is the person most famous for and what was there overall contribution towards that country Churchill played a critical role in leading the UK in WW2 and wast just about morale, his equanimity and fortitude ended up representing what Britain stood for in a true battle of "good and evil ". This cannot be ignored in the same way Stalin was for USSR and Roosevelt for USA In history and generally how people are judged its about there overall contribution, they shouldn't been vilified for certain comments or views unless there comments and views are more significant than there actions. Zora was actually the first person to suggest Churchill was racist due to his actions in India, I hadnt heard of that until he mentioned it. I did some research and it had some truth to it but that is not is overall contribution towards the world we all live in In other words its difficult to look back at most historical figures and not find something wrong with them if you only consider certain offensive comments they made as what defines them ....dont you feel its unfair ? And then another point which is more for people in the UK proud of there history or rather respectful of the sacrifice millions made in WW1 and WW2 is statue of Churchill is in London because of what he did basically in WW2.....I can honestly say I dont know one person who thinks of Churchill firstly as a racist because WW2 was literally an existential war between Democracies and the final evolution of what would represent White Supremacy or the flawed belief that certain white ethnic groups were superior to other races So I would assume anyone serious about BLM would recognize that Churchill fought against true racism and a world where if the Nazis had won the future of any black person would be beyond terrible So in closing, you right Churchill should not be seen as a humanitarian role model. That was not what he did to make a the world a better place

You make sense to me, sometimes I wish you got more involved in asking these types of questions because that way I also can see if what I am posting is coming across in a negative way And you are one of the many people on this forum who I have learnt certain things from and that in turn has made me a better person. This forum is the first forum from a non-work perspective I have been an active member on for so many years without getting banned or people ignore you so you leave. It use to happen to me about 2-3 times a year on other forums and I never really understood why I was getting banned or people didnt seem want to talk to me which makes a forum experience boring. I was never really concerned because there are hundreds of places on the Internet to discuss things I enjoy and I never thought I was in the wrong I remember 2133 years ago called me " thoroughly, revoltingly condescending " , now of course he was exaggerating because I have never been called that in my life and that includes huge arguments in RL. I have often been called condescending but never " thoroughly, revoltingly condescending " But on this forum people have sometimes PM in the old days to chat about certain comments I had made which could be offensive ...anyway it allowed me to understand where I was being rude or misunderstood. For example if BLM was only in the USA then it would be very strange and offensive for someone outside the USA to be critical which is why I wanted to clarify what I was saying And just to be clear. I think BLM is well meaning and most activists I hear about offer constructive comments about societal changes or raise valid issues. Its just the extreme groups or certain outcomes that I object to. For example in the UK vandalizing certain statues like Churchill and the Cenotaph is going to far for many people

Definitely, but there are movements that address African problems that I do support But BLM is not just an American movement anymore , I wish it was because I would never criticize any legitimate social justice movement that develops in other countries. But BLM is basically in many countries outside of the USA and the latest outcomes impact people who live in these countries that in some cases have no link to the USA So in other words I am not criticizing aspects of the USA BLM but rather how it evolves in countries, like South Africa and UK , and how we all get associated with racial problems in the USA which are different throughout the world and then there are real societal changes or expectations based on BLM USA but its not the same in our countries I could ignore it because in SA its already basically died down but I have real connections to countries like the UK where its ongoing so it does effect me and people I know But please dont think I am really spending energy concerned about the USA BLM, its not my country and that is really the concern of Americans but it does have an impact or influence globally and that does matter to me I hope this makes sense ?

Interestingly enough their is a real African diaspora, some BLM activists go on news networks and believe the African diaspora is there lived experiences in first world countries where they are often second , third and older generation. Many valid concerns are raised and Im not dismissing racism or discrimination, but the real suffering of black people is not in first world countries ....terms like " micro-aggression " and " structural racism " become more relevant than what you have raised unintentionally and in a joking way African people that immigrate to countries like Sweden come from certain African countries where in most cases there is no future due to bad leadership, wars and or egregious corruption and lack of governance. But its not all African countries, for example how many people become African refugees and look to Europe from Namibia, Botswana, Zambia, Rwanda, Kenya and many others There are real rising stars in Africa but you cant compare them to any first world country because that is an unfair comparison. South Africa is a hybrid country where some people live between first world and third world in the sense we are well aware of the poverty and levels of inequality that exists due many factors....but in closing no one ever wants to leave there country and go somewhere else. I never understood this until I started travelling for work in Africa and the ME and I met many immigrants But end of the day the real problem and question all of us living in Africa need to ask and address is " why are citizens leaving certain African countries and immigrating to places like Sweden " Its not sustainable, it doesnt help the objective of the true African renaissance that many of us support and it undermines the institutions like the African Union which lack any political will to address internal problems. I wish BLM was about the problems of the African continent because all that energy and effort would be much more appreciated and constructive in the goal of " Black Lives Matter " which should start on the African continent

How many countries in Africa have you traveled to GD ?

I dont know Malc, there are very hot ladies from the Caribbean, Nicki Minaj is from there. It may be worth going on a reconnaissance at some stage for you

That is cool, nice one

But that is exactly the global problem with federal systems of governments.....there is intransigence and rejection around how individual states decide to address virus spread which ultimately impacts the entire country and that would include states that follow best practice

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53218704 Its the last thing we want to have to deal with but there has been a new virus identified in China, yes China AGAIN, that has the potential to be a pandemic

Its interesting because Oz has a relatively low level of infections...yes you can argue that can always get worse but that risk is normal in any country that has pockets of the population that ignore basic virus preventative measures...like the USA Im surprised the Australian government is still not allowing travel between all states or rather isolating Melbourne and Victoria but that is the nature of the reaction to the spread. Its understandable from a health perspective but I dont believe end of the day it can stop the actual spread because that is about citizens taking responsibility and again you can see from our friends in the USA the failure, in this time of virus, of allowing too much freedom of speech and too much freedom of choice As I have mentioned in the past this is one of the very few times I admire the Chinese one party state and how citizens basically do exactly what the state tell them to do Before the virus it would have been difficult for someone to give me a valid reason why Democracy has its real negative outcomes

GD you not considering all the advantages with this modern world, how are you going to play Skyrim and sip on delicious red wine if you living in the mountains ?