yorname

Yeah the argument for BW would be "why wouldn't I want more focus". There're so many high tier spells that couldn't fit into a build because focus isn't enough for everything even with DW.

from here I think I probably saw PL affecting the weapon part when doing tests earlier today (20.3 roll with a sabre). Not sure as I'm not on computer right now.

That's a pretty elegant solution. Other lashes will still make the end result favor DW a little bit, but with reasonable amount of lashes it's at least 15% more damage and 70% focus gain, not bad at all.

If we buff it to 30% raw lash, for a typical cipher with 8 PL, 2.5 multiplier (low for mindstalker, pretty high for others) and no other lashes, the attack + SA combo damage will be BW 163.5 vs DW 154.375. The difference is only 6% and I still would never take it. suggestion: base 25% raw lash, another 25% if target is affected by shred spell DoTs (if it's possible). Or just bonus attack and/or PEN vs said targets on top of lash. Double focus from DW simply is this impactful.

trying to get it clear from the basics: set M = (1 + all_weapon_and_damage_bonuses), L = all_other_lashes_ratio, let a PL8 cipher do the alternative attacks with a sabre with average base damage of 16, look at 2 attacks: DW: 16*M*(1+L) + 16*M*(1+L) + [4*M*(1+L)+7.5]*1.7*M BW: 16*M*(1.2+L)+ 16*M*(1.2+L) + [2*M*(1.2+L)+7.5]*1.7*M If we want DW < BW: 32*M*(1+L)+6.8*(1+L)*M^2+12.75*M < 32*M*(1.2+L)+3.4*(1.2+L)*M^2+12.75*M M < 160/(68+85*L) Every other lash or damage bonus makes BW worse by comparison. To make BW as good as DW, the total damage multiplier can't be higher than ~2.35. Legendary weapon + Soul Whip is already 1.8, if we add just one lash, the difference is unnoticeable. Not to mention we naturally want more damage bonuses on any damage dealer, and it only makes DW better. Also yes, CP BW works on weapon abilities. Personally I think BW needs to be a clear winner in this case to compensate for the severe lack of flexibility in all other cases, and 25% lash is far from enough. Maybe even a redesign so it doesn't punish getting more damage bonuses.

I think you're skipping too much on multipliers. A MC cipher with 8 PL and 10 MIG, legendary weapon and no other bonuses makes the difference into 6 * 1.7 * 1.8 = 18.36. And it only gets better with every bonus you can add. It's in fact really rare that a cipher only has this few bonuses. Also before getting to late game it's just worthwhile to waste focus on SA as they already struggle to keep the usual cipher spells. Edit: I forget the lash applies to the weapon part of SA attack, but still: if we can hit 60 weapon damage without other lash, the bonus would be much more than just 0.6 from legendary, for example with a multiplier of 2.5, it's 6 * 1.7 * 2.5 = 25.5. If they have other lashes, BW also becomes less important. this pattern also doesn't take up all of the cipher's total combat time. Borrowed Instinct is the bare minimum, and Disintegration is always more efficient for single target. Taking all these casting and focus generating time into account, the attack - SA loop is even less important. A BW cipher will have a much harder time to sustain BI and Disintegration that if they have any advantage with SA at all, the end result is still worse.

Beguiler really needs focus from weapons when enemy numbers is low, e.g. in many boss's case. They aren't much different from vanilla cipher in that situation, and Biting Whip just heavily underperforms as usual. Even though SA is already not very efficient by damage per focus standard, it is still pretty easy to reach at least 1 focus -> 1 damage. In this case, let's say a SB with Draining Whip and no other lash deals 200 weapon damage to get 200 focus, and uses SA to deal another 200 raw damage (plus the primary attack) A SB with Biting Whip in the same time deals 200 weapon damage, 40 raw lash and 120 SA damage. This is an extreme case because we don't really want to dump focus into SA every time. For every other purpose BW is much worse. Even in this extreme case, BW is still worse than DW. If the cipher has other lashes or has a DPF better than 1:1, the numbers favor DW more. IMO DW cipher as baseline is fine, I don't mind a slight nerf like down to +80% focus, but BW really needs some buffs to be viable, because it's less flexible by a mile and still strictly worse than DW.

is this effect multiplicative like Enfeebled? seems like something can be abused. Also this doesn't have to be a kill from the weapon?

I just finished a Berath run, actually there're very few special interactions for them, maybe slightly more than other priests but much less than I expected. If you really want to play it, I highly recommend go single class. SC priests have a very different playstyle compared to MC ones, and Berath is one of the better pure casters among all subclasses.

The main advantages of DW are: 1. you get special effects from 2 weapons. and some of 1h weapons have very powerful effects. 2. because everything in deadfire is slower, you'll have much longer recovery time with 2h, that makes you much less responsive. 3. when you use an ability with full attack, DW makes it easier to apply the effect. In terms of DPS, 2H and DW are surprisingly really close, usually around 10% difference.

I've tested it, Writ of War can stop Dorudugan from using any ability, all the way down to 0hp. Also with 25 INT character it lasts ~15s on it, so keeping the effect on is very practical. I think this is somewhere between perma-paralyzing and normal kiting strategy. After debuffing Dorudugan only has 90+ will, so keeping all the debuffs on is much easier. Tanking auto-attacks is also as not difficult as dodging barrage/dealing with the pull.

I see. It does need some time to get used to, but makes sense. Ideally a tier 9 spell every 15s is still pretty good

Can the higher ticks prioritize higher tier slots? or are they just random? Also how does the time counter work when it's frequently reapplied? When I set a very basic AI script to cast Ancestor's Memory on a caster whenever cipher has enough focus, if they have multiple slots to fill, the tier 7-9 slots can never be filled. Is this because the frequent reapply made the counter always cycling 3-6-3-6, or because the "9" ticks don't prioritize higher spell slots?

When a brilliant is longer than 15s, the max lv of spells regained is 3-6-9-3-6-9... right?

I think frightened is different, it's very common to stop queued abilities with cipher's secret horror.

Yeah this happened once, it queued Hellfire Barrage before I could apply the writ and used it anyway. I'm doing a Berath run, maybe I'll just add the spell to the spellbook and see what happens then. My party composition won't be able to fight it comfortably anyway.

Tested this for a while. At least with Unity Console refreshing spells constantly, Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment + Writ of War can keep Dorudugan doing only auto attacks for a few minutes. I didn't get its hp down so can't say this works for all its abilities, but even disabling Brutal Cleave only is a vast improvement. This makes Priest of Woedica a very interesing MC choice, their spells aren't that great outside writs but they don't get symbols anyway, so I don't feel I'm losing as much as with other priests.

That's a fair point. By the way, nothing to do with cipher, but isn't White Flame's AOE super tiny? IIRC it's way smaller than paladin aura or chant, last time when I played one with 20ish INT he couldn't even cover melee characters if I wanted to flank a boss

I mean the cipher is probably the last person in the party I want to do tanking or healing, so wasting the best stuff from the paladin side.

Let's just assume accuracy, duration and brilliant isn't a problem, can Writ of War disable its Brutal Cleave or Magnetic Overdrive? These 2 are the only things that makes the fight tricky. I don't have a save near the boss to test on my own.

Inquisitor is probably better for a solo character, since both paladin and cipher are very strong classes, but don't help with the other side, like at all. Every cipher subclass has a different playstyle. Soulblade and Beguiler are closer to a vanilla cipher, with Soulblade focusing on melee and Beguiler on casting. Soulblade works well with rogues, especially Streetfighter. Beguiler can work with almost everything, or as single class. The high tier cipher abilities are very powerful for a caster style. Ascendant is extremely powerful as single class and can underperform with multiclass. The core spells and passives for them are mostly in tier 8 and 9. They are also the only subclass that can delete everyone in like 10 seconds for most fights. Psion is the subclass I haven't played and also the most unique, works with caster multiclasses, but I think others that actually played it can explain it in detail.

I don't know how to make bellower work either. +PL makes most sense for offensive incantations, but why not use skald then, they are so efficient with low cost incantations that +PL can't compete

Beware of the trap that you might build your character that is good in 90% fights but underperform against bosses. Most bosses has really slow attacks, if they attack at all, and tend to have high accuracy, so the use of riposte is actually minimal. As for the specific build, I found that you'll get way more out of disengagement attacks generated by terrified than from riposte, when fighting mobs. Mindstalker is good against bosses anyway, but just as normal mindstalkers.

Necro myself to say some of OP is wrong the "base" damage of the corrode/crushing attack is affected by PL and not MIG, so it's more like 12-18 at max level. Other bonuses that weapon damage normally gets are applied multiplicatively on top of it. IA don't graze or crit. If the weapon attack is at least graze then IA is always a normal hit. Adding up the 5-7 weapon attack it's effectively 17-25 dmg, and loses very little when grazes. When used for dual wielding or 1H + Rushed Reload, the damage and speed is very comparable to melee 2H weapons with the superiority of reloading instead of recovery. The damage is also higher than standard 2H ranged weapons and reloads faster. All things considered it's simply one of the best ranged weapons out there, especially useful when enemies have high defenses.

By the way, aside from psion/chanter, do you feel the lack of brilliant for endgame bosses? As they will likely be the only cipher in the party, the other class can be eventually drained out in those boss fights, and interrupt/paralyze spam don't work in those situations. I'm about to start one but planning for megabosses is stopping me from making the final decision. Most other fights are whatever since we can't really not beat them, that's why my mindset is always focused on those bosses.