CrazyPea
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In the UK here, and still nothing - not even an email. -
Update #90: Shipping and Strategy Guide
CrazyPea replied to BAdler's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Announcements & News
From France, no mail, still showing "shipping soon". UK here, and same for me - nothing. Sent in a query to support, but again, nothing from there so far... -
Update #90: Shipping and Strategy Guide
CrazyPea replied to BAdler's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Announcements & News
No email confirmation for me (checked in my junk file too). I'm in the UK and backed at the $250 level. I don't expect a delivery estimate, but I would love some official announcement on when EU items shipped/will be shipping. Update 90 did imply that the physical goods would ship before the release date - hence the reason for delaying the physical copy of the game. If I had known shipping wasn't going to occur until after the release date anyway, I would have changed my vote (and had the disc shipped with rest of the components). -
Well, I went and searched for information on this mod and I found this: So, your example of a "good starting point for a romance done well" is: 1) A character from a mod. Mods have a bunch of crucial departures from the rest of the game: they do not draw from the budget of the game, and they are optional in the purest sense of the word, for example. I do not find this to be a fair comparison. Especially considering that PE will likely not let you disable parts of the character outside of the game, like the mod allows you to do. 2) A character that was not originally designed as a romance option. In fact, it took three extra versions to include that at all. You said in an earlier page that romances are not a lot of work to do if they're planned from the beginning, but this example goes completely against that. 3) A character that has been developed for over four years. With the help of a professional writer from the beginning. Holy crap. You have read this post, right? You expect a writer to be able to match that in a sixteenth part of that time? You do realize that Obsidian cannot dedicate that many resources to the exclusive development of a companion, right? I just... seriously, is that the best example you have? A mod? Because if mods already have that quality, why do you care if PE has romances or not? Modders will make romances regardless of game content, and considering your example, they'll do a better job anyway! 1. I was showing what I believe is a good example of a well written romance. 2. You're right it didn't originally include a romance - but that's part of the point wanted to make, whole levels of depth have been added to the character since the romance was added - the romance element hasn't detracted from the character at all, it has enhanced the entire project. It also shows that Romance can be added later - this doesn't invalidate my earlier point because IT IS easier (and much LESS work) to incorporate the romance in the beginning. I never said it couldn't be added later, just that you are making your life harder for yourself by doing so. 3. The mod itself has been in development for 4 years not the romance aspect of it. These people are not professionals, they have day jobs/lives/loves etc. And they didn't have help of a professional writer from the beginning - Mr Pratchett played the mod from version 1, his advice and pointers started from Version 2 onwards. It's also taken four years because the modders chose to continue developing it, taking it from one game to another. I don't expect Obsidian match that at all (well ... perhaps if some of the NPCs make it into the sequels, but that's a different kettle of fish); I wanted to show it can be done and to see if there are aspects that could be applied to other romances. I also wanted to see if other people deemed it a good romance and if not, why not? You know, promoting a discussion about romances rather than the attacking/defending that is the current status quo in this topic. 4. Seriously? A Mod? Yes. - Does matter if amateurs (with help) wrote the mod? Good is good, no matter who writes it. Is it the best I can do? I wasn't really putting it out there as some sort of challenge. Foolishly, I thought the point was to show that romances can be well written. Why do I care about P:E if mods are a that level quality? Because all mods unfortunately are not at that level of quality. Also, although Oblivion and Skyrim can be fun games, they are very shallow; I want something with a little more depth and better writing, something which Obsidian is famous for. 5. Maybe modders will make romances, maybe they will be better than any 'Official' one, maybe they won't. Besides, I don't about you, but I love Obsidians writing and I would really like to see their take on it - especially Mr. Avellones ideas for a doomed romance.
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A good starting point for a romance done well IMHO is Companion Vilja - a mod for Oblivion and Skyrim. Completely optional, the character didn't become unresponsive if you didn't woo her, any gender could woo her, the romance only developed after a lot of hours of playing (in Oblivion, it was quicker in Skyrim but they haven't finished with the Skyrim version yet) and perhaps best of all there was no sex scene - the entire relationship was extremely chaste. I think what really helped was that Vilja was a very well developed character (with contributions by Sir Terry Pratchett, of Discworld fame), certainly more developed than some professionally made characters.
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Brilliant post, I don't agree with everything but it was a brilliant post - and now I'm determined to have your hat
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Based on the way the internet/game forums tend to work ... not much would cease. The debate would probably just shift direction ... if/whenever the topic came up again. It's not a debate that is confined to a single game, really. Course, I'm a cynical old bat. I'm a middle aged optimistic old bat, but I'm catching you up
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I know, right? It's like this thread went back in time to September, with all the namecalling and such EDIT: That includes you, CrazyPea. You know, since you liked my post. I refer the right honourable gentleman to the post above this one
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He started it .... (joke - just in case...)
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why Why, thank you sir
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Then if that is what it looked like, then I apologise.
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If people are contentious, it's just due to them waging this fight way back before the Kickstarter even ended. Same old grind - some need it, some dislike it, others don't care. I wonder how much of this would cease if Obsidian made an official announcement. Brian Fargo said pretty much from the start that romances would not be a part of Torment: Tides of Numenera and people accept this. I think part of this come from not knowing one way or the other.
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Excuse me? You asked me if I had when you were point-scoring. LOL. * shakes head* I wasn't trying to score points, I was trying to show that I was speaking from experience in the field of actually writing romance in a mod. You, on the other hand seemed to be concerned with 'demolioshing' the 'passive/aggressive n00b of the year' (and you imply that you are not insulting).
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Well perhaps if you spoke with a civil tongue they could climb down from their high horses and have a civil conversation with you.
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No, I said it wasn't much extra work (in the sense of graft) if done at the point of character creation - i.e. if you planned it in advance and implemented during the writing phase. It becomes 'work' in (the sense of a chore) when you try to add it afterwards. Congratulations that your work was published, but was it relevant to the discussion?
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Yes, actually I do.
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I'll go a step further and say that it is impossible to make a romance that suits everybody. I don't think they should try, either. I think this is part of where romances get tricky implementation wise. I've demolished this argument so many times it's not even funny, suffice it to say that romance dialogues take a **** load of time to write and implement. It only reinforces my impressions that Promancers are so desperate that they'll settle for some slap-dash fan-fic as long as it's got some emo lurve in it. In defence of CP, he/she points out that they wrote a character romance for a mod, so is relying on that experience to inform the expressed opinion. That said, as I mentioned for the way I'd envision to do a romance "right" it'd definitely be a non-trivial task one that requires a robust romance and non-romance option, should take into account the NPCs wants and desires and not sublimate them to the PC, etc. Definitely 'she'
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So you want Angelina Jolie?
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A) No one is desperate for anything - that sentence is a perfect example of the borderline cyberbullying goes on this thread - it's pure hyperbolic insult. If you don't agree fine. State your case by all means, but there is no need for such immaturity. B) You may have 'demolished' the argument several times, it doesn't mean you are right. Yes, It takes a lot of time to create a good character and write the dialogue - but if you incorporate the romance at the point of creation there is little 'extra' work to be done as it is part of the process. There is only extra work to be done if you are trying to insert afterwards. I speak from experience - someone who has spent the time writing and implementing it. Someone whose work was actually published (and is also listed in the 'Hall of Fame' in the NWN Vault). Can you say the same?
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Isn't that the truth I would hope that Obsidian made any such decisions a long time ago, but until we know what they know, we'll continue to squabble amongst ourselves. Like the scorpion said, 'it's in our nature.' As someone poetically said before me: Romance thread. Romance thread never changes...
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To be fair, one of the complaints about romances in the past from those who aren't overly fond of them is that the NPC - if a romance is not pursued - loses reactivity; in essence for the character to be interesting the player must choose to romance them. The only way to 'fix' this problem is to make sure that the character is robust in dialogue and relationship with the PC regardless of the PC's feelings. Which means that we're talking about, in essence, creating two fully fleshed-out relationships for the PC-NPC (one that keeps the character interesting without a romance and one that gives a satisfactory romance storyline). That's not a trivial use of the writers time. no it isn't, but it doesn't take every ounce of a writer's sweat, blood and tears either - see the above post. And if you have a team of writers....
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Speaking of people that don't read properly... That was my opinion on player sexual characters not your mod. Player sexual characters, are an easy way out. They are there so the PC can do whatever they want with them. Blow up dolls. It's come up before in these threads. But you and others obviously don't feel they have planned romances from the start. If you and others did, you wouldn't be posting topics, pointing to polls (as clear indication of a majority want) and dismissing devs(less than favourable) thoughts on the matter. You want romances regardless of your 'second point'. So pick an area to take resources from. I honestly don't if Obsidian have or haven't planned to include romances; I'm doubtful, but I don't know. I believe I've already addressed the issue of 'from where' if romances were included as an extra rather than originally planned in my previous posts. I do know from doing that they not as resource intense as you make out - mine was simply part of character creation, mostly during planning and writing the character dialogue, it took little 'extra effort' and when it did, it was mostly figuring out how to do an influence system. Admittedly, mine was pretty basic but there again it was good enough to get published, and that was just something I did in my spare time. Getting paid for work is completely different, and that was the point I was trying to make in my earlier post when I said I don't like writing westerns. If some one paid me - I'd write one, and do the best job of it that I could, and find some hook in the story I could enjoy. When you are paid you don't always get a choice about what you write. Chris is a professional, and as he said in that quote, he might not like writing romances but it was his job. If P:E requires him to write romances, he will simple as that. If it came across as I just casually dismissed his words, then I apologise (in my defence, I was in a bit of rush).
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*shrugs* well at least it's an informed opinion. One I respectfully disagree with, but each to their own
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Speaking of people that don't read properly... Don't be disgusting; not every romance is about the sex scene - And if you bothered to play the mod in question you would see that there is no sex in the romance and if you don't do the romance the game carries on without it being an issue. Second point: If romances were planned in at the beginning there would be no need to take resources from elsewhere as they would be allocated their own resources from the pot
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Which is why I have said that polls cannot be relied on in isolation and that they are an INDICATION, nothing more, of what backers want.
