Albion72

1. So those who "don't choose the right (i.e., canon) genders" just get shafted? Then we're back to irate parts of the fanbase again. Besides, even if do go by canon, I'd much rather watch Revan/Bastila. A Revan/exile romance would be make canon Revan a liar, since he converted Bastila back to the light side by admitting his feelings towards her. If he then goes for the exile, that makes him a liar. Besides, considering what we learn in TSL, I don't get the impression Revan and exile ever liked each other much, or at least Revan didn't view the exile as anything but a chesspawn. 2. Nonsense. I have no faith in the dark side, except its ability to assuredly undermine itself. You got me all wrong - I'm not a sith. I don't have a Darth [insert cool+rearkicking-sounding name here] alias. I just don't believe that LS/good means being stupid or gullible, nor can I abide when benevolence is being made synomous with ignorance or blind faith. But that doesn't change that I'm the pillar of all things light sided and ethical 3. Okay, then. Roughly "He who remains silent is understood to consent." 4. They all interbred with the dark jedi, the entire species. The Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire comic book series establish that. After the Hundred Years Darkness, the Sith Empire was founded around 6900 BBY with the Sith species pretty much gone by the Great Hyperspace War in 5000 BBY about 1900 years later. KotOR is about 1050 years after that. That doesn't leave much chance of any being left. Besides, why would we want them to be? As a society, the original sith were primitive and nowhere as sophisticated as they became as part of the Sith Empire when they interbred with the dark jedi. 5. "Careful, Atris - anger leads to the dark side." 1. Well, the people who play DS Revan or Female Revan are already shafted, since thats not canon. The people who play DS Exile or Male Exile are already shafted, since thats not canon... 2. The Jedi Council will be watching you very carefully. Your views collide with ours thereforce you must be calling upon the Dark Side (sarcasm intended). 3. Ty 4. Whos to say the ENTIRE RACE died, thats a hard thing to do in the SW galaxy, considering their are billions in each race department. Also, if Revan had a secret treaty with these "true sith" then their technology could very well be advanced. They could even have a fleet made from the Star Forge. Since KOTOR I says, "Revan returned from the Uknown Regions with an entire battle fleet." This is just a clash of opinion, you don't think it'd be cool to have the Sith species as the True Sith, and I wouldnt' care. So oh well.

Or Malak was defeated by a Darkside Revan. 1. Regardless, Canon Revan is LS redeemed, which means the statement, "Most DS users have been defeated by LS users" true. Sure you can play DS Revan, but its a non-canon player friendly option. The book hints that Anakin used the Darkside to defeat him. 2. I believe that Anakin used the Dark Side when he severed his head, not when he was fighting... A clear temptation of Palpatine. This is debatable at best though, I agree. We cannot know for sure that Palpatine was not faking his weakness for Anakin. 3. Palpatine was putting up a good fight if you ask me and even slew the other three Jedi rather easily while in the fight. Personally I believe that he did nto want Windu to defeat him. Or a Darkside Exile, and, as I have already pointed out, the only reason Lightside is cannon is due to the bias against the Darkside within LucasArts. 4. Still, canon is canon, read above. Revan could have been light or dark. 5. Read above. Above lol. Also: Revan: Betrayed by Malak but comes back either as a Darkside or Lightside force user; although we do not find out what happened to him/her after he/she left to find the "True Sith." Read above again. Exile: Lightside or Darkside, undefeated at the end of Kotor II. Aurra Sing: Still living Darth Malak: Defeated by Darkside Revan or Lightside Revan. Darth Bane: Seems to have either died of old age or have been overthrouwn by Zannah. Zannah: Died of old age or overthrown by her apprentice. Visas Marr: Traveled with the Exile, although there is a option to redeem her. Darth Plagueis: Killed by Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious: Killed by Darth Vader Darth Vader: Killed by Darth Sidious. The Dark Woman*: She turned into a force ghost and was respected by Qui-Gon. Lumiya: Sacurfices herself to protect Darth Caedus' identity as Jason Solo. *Or was it The Gray Woman... Read above on the first one. Zannah and Bane we do not know hwo they die, so we cannot say whether they were overthrown or not or died of old age. Its 70% of the possibility I'd say. It can also be argued Darth Vader was LS when he killed Palpatine. (But cmon, it doesn't really matter. He didn't use the force he picked the guy up and threw him over a ledge, so it doesn't really matter).

Boromir was not a background character - he was a member of the Fellowship, after all. And if KotOR3 has a new main character, then Revan and exile will by defintion have to in the background. Or would you claim Revan was a major character in TSL? We heard about him, sure, but we never met him or even learned what had finally become of him, just that where he had gone when disappeared four years before. Yes but its a Saga.

That depends entirely on the circumstances. Character death can be potent if done for plot reasons. For example. J.R.R. Tolkien did not kill Boromir in "The Lord of the Rings" because he didn't know what to do with the character - his death has long-lasting and deep consequences that are essential to the following plot development. You could say it's lazy writing to then kill of characters in the background, but even then I'd consider the deaths of Hicks and Newt in Alien3 to not be so, since it means Ripley is now alone again and must face danger without allies, thus serving a reason in the plot. "Lazy death" is more like in the end of KotOR1, when LS Revan tries to redeem Malak, but he refuses and then conveniently drops over dead. I could accept if Revan and/or exile are killed, if it serves a plot reason, but then it has to be for that reason - not because the writers couldn't figure out what to do with them and so killed them off in the background during the opening title crawl. If we can think of stuff to do with them in K3 without gender or alignment being a problem, then surely professional developers can too. You can do different endings for different people. The Fallout games have something like that. I'd expect it to more flashy and movie-like for K3 given the age of those games, but dramatically there is nothing that says that is not perfectly valid. Well see I don't care if backgroudn characters die (HK-47, Mira, Atton, etc). Yes Tolkien killed off Theoden and Boromir but not Frodo and Samwise... that would've been to much for the main protagonists (if you tink tis them, i prefer to think its the trio... Aragorn Legolas and Gimli :D.

If you whole heartedly agree that the Dark Side is stronger than the Light Side because wookieepedia has more pros about the Light Side then I suggest you read the sources from which the topics were made and then compare them to the topics. I'm done trying to defend wookieepedia as all you will say next time is, "Anyone can edit it". Why isn't the Dark Side article saying things like "The Dark Side is so powerful" or w/e. Imo from what I've seen there are way more Dark Side fans out there than Light Side fans. @First point: If you know half a hoot about the Star Wars Universe you should know that it is true... with maybe a couple exceptions like Sidious. (It can be argued that it was either the LS or DS in Vader that prompted him to defeat his master). Just think about every Sith lord who hasn't been executed by their apprentice (according to canon, the dragonball EU stuff imo... well w/e I guess it counts). has died to a Jedi/LS user. The above statement even says that "The vast majority" --- not all of the DS users, have been defeated by LS users. When I have the time I will post certain examples, maybe about five or ten, idk yet. I haven't had coffee yet (lol) and Saturday is "OMG DO YARD WORK OR WIFE YELLS AT YOU DAY". @Second point: It can be easily assumed that Obi-Wan was less skilled than Darth Maul because Darth Maul was taking both Qui-Gon AND Obi-Wan at the same time, yet Darth Maul's clouded judgement mislead him to believe he had won before he killed him. Second part is debatable between Anakin and Obi. Some believe (since Anakin is the Chosen one, yes confirmed by George Lucas) that when turning to the Dark Side his powers were enhanced due to that of his old training and his emotions. (I disagree however). Regardless, the above statement is true about "Clouded Focus"... (Why didn't he just... step on the land and then continue fighting... he had to jump?) Next point please. EDIT: Some quick examples. 1. Darth Malak was defeated by a redeemed Revan and even told Revan (This is from the game so no BS here), "You are much stronger now than you were as the Dark Lord of the Sith) Something to that degree. 2. Darth Vader if you consider him redeemed or just angry the Emperor doesn't care about his son. 3. Obi defeated Anakin but didn't kill him (Should've finished him off Imo) 4. Anakin (while no tturned) defeated Dooku. 5. Mace defeated Palpatine and then was betrayed. 6. Nihilus, Sion, Kreia were defeated by the LS Exile (according to Canon) 7. Darth Bandon got owned by Revan too. 8. Darth Maul by Obi. 9. Ajunta Pall goes back to the LS due to Revan (It wasn't a battle, more of Revan's persuasive way of thinking). Well, I don't want to go through the WHOLE List of Sith to find ones, but there is a possibility that one detail is wrong that I might edit. It would seem a majority of the Sith Lords didn't get defeated by LS users, they were betrayed or they exiled themselves to preserve their spirit (Exar Kun). The ones who did invade the Republic eventually got owned, with the exception of Kun who retreated and transformed himself into a spirit.

Actually, a real Sith would pay the money, say thank you, then slice the beggar in two and take his money. No, on second thought, he would slice the beggar in two and taken his money, and then say thank you. You might just as well argue that they only put the effect in the game and that powers like Force Shield are used constantly in the movies, only we don't see them. There is no visible signs of Obi-Wan using Cure on Luke in Ep. IV, yet one moment he is on the ground knocked cold by sand people and the second he recovers as Ben bends over above him. For example, in the Star Ward D20 RPG, which KotOR is based on, force powers are skills, not granted powers, and some are sublte. Battlemind, for example, gives the user a bonus to his attacks, while Force Defense gives him a bonus to saves against force attacks, making it similar to Force Resistance in the computer games. I think we can assume such powers are used in the movies, yet we never see visible evidence of them, only the end effect. If Windu had a recording, then why didn't he just leave and present that to the senate instead of trying to kill his "prisoner"? Policemen are not allowed to execute murderers - that's for the court to decide. Policemen may kill, but they are permitted to do so only in obvious defense of their own life or that of others. There's an important distinction there. And when Windu persists to proceed to use lethal force, he oversteps the limits of the jedi because he tries to effect political change according to his own wishes in a system he is sworn to protect. If you want political change, then you join the next election - you don't sneak up from behind with a dagger. Now, of course Palpatine is evil and manipulative. He calculated this would happen. He needed it too. He thought the jedi would not be able to resist trying to remove him by force, which he could then later use to infer that they attempted a political coup d'etat to take power in the republic, effectively throwing liberty and democracy away. And he was right too. And Windu also violates the jedi code - the jedi don't kill their prisoners. That's exactly what he tried to do. The above sentence about Obi-Wan makes no sense to me. Yes, he was less skilled in combat than Darth Maul, but certainly not less skilled than Vader - Obi-Wan trained Vader and years if not decades of experience before that. Indeed, Obi-Wan won the duel on Mustafar exactly because he had greater experience with which to match Anakin's greater power. 1. You evil evil child. Lol. 2. Very possible 3. Because we are taking it way out of context. Policeman and Jedi are very different, just like a Sith is very different from a Chancellor. The Sith are sworn enemies of the Republic, no? And after reviewing history and seeing what Sith Lords can turn the galaxy into, I'm pretty sure that execution and then showing the security recording and then explaining to the masses what the Sith are (Since they probably forgot) would be logical. Yes Windu violated the code (Well would have, if he would've succeeded) but do you think the council or the galaxy would've been angry at him? Sure some confused citizens probably would've but thtas about it. 4. According to some people *ahem* Vader's turn the dark side multiplied his power by a lot (I disagree whole heartedly). but w/e. Its still true nonetheless with the less skilled part being debatable. Funny how this argument is never ending, lol.

1. Well there would really only be three trees (which with todays technology is possible)... Tree 1: Revan/Exile Romance for LS/LS Revan/Exile Tree 2: No romance Tree 3: No romance (Revan/Exile same sex or different alignment. 2. Faith in the Dark Side of the Force is your weakness Jediphile! You will never beat the Jedi! 3. Translation dangit! :D 4. The Sith species (the non interbred ones) have disappeared so.... its a logical guess it could be them still. 5. "Well, I suppose if you don't want to tell me we can just drop you off at the next starport and part ways... then."

1. I don't understand. You say you have to start over, but then point to difference in level. If you mean for Revan and exile to start over, then no. Just plain no. Having either or both of them become amnesic and lose all their power AGAIN would strain credibility beyond belief. It would just be too stupid an example of game mechanic. Besides, just because a new character begins at level one, that doesn't cause a problem if you don't encounter Revan and/or Exile until later in the game when you have achieved an at least comparable level. I'd make them both the new character's level +2 and then either not let the character meet them until he/she was level 18 or else not make them playable and thus their level immaterial. 1a. Revan's gender and alignment is optional in TSL, so you can choose the one you had in K1. I hate the idea of a Revan/exile relationship, but it doesn't matter because it won't happen, since a good portion of the fanbase would reject a fixed gender/alignment for either character and not buy the game, and LA know that. For example, I will always consider the exile male no matter what anyone tells me, and a good number of female players insist Revan is a woman. Add in the DS-fans, and you'll have a split fanbase that you can sell the only to a portion of then moment you force gender. Heck, even the KotOR comic books have steered clear of the gender/alignment can of worms for Revan. So no, no Revan/exile romance. Period. *Influence lost* 2. No, I don't. What, do you think you're a jedi, waving your hand around like that? 3. Gray jedi, yes. D20... Well, we're stuck with it now whether it sucks or rocks 4. Oh, not that again. First, by the time of the Great Hyperspace War, which is more than a millennium before the KotOR games, the Sith species was practically extinct through the inbreeding with the dark jedi exiled by the republic and then jedi after the Hundred Years Darkness. Second, apart from the rakata having been on Korriban, which is just as true for Dantooine, Tatooine and Manaan, there is no evidence of there being any connection. Third, they are NOT particularly attuned to the force. They have no great force powers or ancient dark force heritage. The Sith Empire was founded when the Sith species were conquered by and then began learning the dark side secrets FROM the dark jedi exiled from the republic by the jedi. The Sith were the slaves of the dark jedi rulers, but they interbred so much that by the time of Ragnos, Sadow and Kressh, there was only a mixed species left with some being more or less human - Sadow being closer to humans than most. The Massassi do not count as this "oh so ancient uber-Sith" either because they were both the warrior class of the Sith species and created through Sith Alchemy, which - again - has it's origin with the exiled dark jedi and not the Sith species. We don't know who the true Sith are, though they could be descendants of the Sith Empire. 5. No. 1. Umm the Genders are Optional in both games but CANON Revan is still Male, and CANON Exile is still female... If you play a female Revan and a Male Exile its considered non-canon as far as storyline goes, its for your own personal entertainment though. What I'm trying to say is a Revan/Exile romance would work if the PC wanted it to if you followed canon meaning Revan = Male and Exile = female. Non-canon would have its own twists to. I'm not trying to say "You have to play male Revan/Female Exile. 2. Well... I have 20000 republic credits... does that sway your thinking? 3. no comment again lol 4. But thats what makes the connection. The fact that we don't know anything about the Sith race anymore after those wars.. they could've very well retreated to their original empire's worlds in the unknown regions. They did have a lot of time to rebuild their power as well. 5. Spit it out already! If we are going to be traveling together on the Ebon Hawk I at least want to know where your birthplace is! (Seriously though I don't want to know, as thats very very personal to some people, this is for funs sake).

Eh, the race on the unkown planet was the Rakata. A force-sensitive race like Miraluka's who used the dark side to build their technology, their most famous invention being the Star Forge. True Sith is another race... Sith is a race.... thats the name of the race... Sith. Search Rakata on Wookieepedia. 1. Agreed... 2. Huh? I thought the level caps were the same in both games... I haven't played one as much though. Whats level caps? 3. Not sure how trhis could work but yeah, should happen. 4. Mentioned earlier, so agreed I guess. 5. Ofc 6. Yes please :D 7. yeah.

Yeah thats why all the sources are listed and you can do out of site research as well. Anyone can edit wikipedia but do you see people screwing up topics for fun? I mean I'm sure someone has tried it but I'm sure its corrected really fast. And besides, I'm sure if people saw mistakes they'd fix them. I do all the time on Wikipedia (Spell checks etc). State what you think was falsely edited from my above post please, so that I may delve more further into the research. Or am I just starting a, "omg you can't win fight because I'll just say someone edited the topic!"

So I placed my order for KOTOR II on newegg for the PC (Since I couldn't find it anywhere else in stories for PC). Took them 5 days to CHARGE my card, which is odd. Took another 5 days for the package to leave Minnesota and get to Commerce City, CO. Status: Adverse Weather Conditions, not in Transit. For some reason I guess Denver had some pretty bad rainstorms if they couldn't drive it down here for another 4 days. Today the "Arrival Scan" was completed in Commerce City. And not its in Transit to Pueblo, two hours away. UPS doesn't ship on Saturday's/Sunday's so I guess I'll get it 4pm Monday when I'm still at work. -sigh at the Shipping system. *Note* Original shipping plan was "Standard 3-day Business shipping". Should've been "Standard 3x4day shipping plan". Anyways, enough of my crap... Any odd shipping stories for you guys?

Did Luke, the main character, die at the end of RotJ? Was the ending "dark and gloomy because the rest of the so-called Imperial rule was"? I'm sorry but if I'm not emo and I think it'd be stupid to just kill off everyone and have the same dark atmosphere exist after the series ends. Killing characters off is the quick and easy and non-intelligent way out. They could be more creative than that. Maybe, but I think all of this really depends on whether they are going to continue with Revan and the Exile or not. If they decide not to do anymore, then they should kill them to tie things off (because like I said earlier they could be too much of a threat). If they want to continue with these characters then sure, leave them alive. What I'm trying to say is that if they have some measure of intelligence then they can have them LIVE and still tie the story off, the best stories are usually the ones where the main character doesn't die... it just shows that the author had to finish it and didn't know what to do... Who knows maybe K3 will pull a K2 and leave a lot left out... that'd really upset people LOL! Although arguing over this is kind of pointless because everyone has different tastes on what they like to see as far as endings.

I discovered some new points to aid in my argument saying the Light Side isn't any "weaker" then the Dark. 1. Plo Koon invented a Light Side force shock called something like Emerald Lightning usually appearing Green or Yellow, there goes the number one DS force power. 2. There are a lot of Dark Side powers that are just in the games to balance it out as well. All you see int he movies as far as DS goes is shock and choke (if choke is even considered DS). Dominate Mind is used by everyone one time or another. So really the major force powers for BOTH sides are really only 1. Shock and Emerald Lightning 2. Force Push, Choke Telekeneesis (sp?) @Darth Clumber Yoda is 850 or somethin years old, it was said on the star wars wiki that h ehad to draw heavily upon the force to be as agile as him during his old age. Just because he is dodging doesn't mean Palpatine is winning, lol. @your remark about the Sith and beggar. I am not arguing that the life of a Jedi is easier, it right though. Ofc a Sith will be rich, he is evil. And no a Sith will never do good. Even if giving money to the beggar would get him information, he could just say, "Give me the info or I'll kill you right now!" and ignite his lightsaber. @"Say what you want, but DS powers are stronger" read above. Give me an example of Death field actually being used or something lol. Force Crush is plausible although we never see it. And we also see enhancing LS powers in the movies, some powers are also under the "Powers and Abilities" section of certain Clone War Era Jedi. So not ALL of them are just in there. (Force Shield or w/e would be stupid to include in the movie. Look dad! A purple glowing field from nowhere!). @your reply to me seeing the future. Of course I can't but I guess thats the whole flaw of my point. However, that "Sith" empire ruled because it was ruling over entire populations devoted to Sith teachings. They didn't have to "oppress" the masses because the masses were Sith themselves. Read about the Sith Race. Also Vader also redeemed himself by throwing Sidious into the reactor. And so far every Sith thats tried to conquer (except Palpatine because he was a genius instead of the "OMG I HAVE POWER START A WAR NOW! type guy, has died due to them thinking they can take everyone on. @your excuse for saying the Jedi Seek power. Ummm, maybe you didn't notice but Palpatine was a SITH LORD? Ahem... Thats good enough reason to execute him to me. And besides, Palpatine said, "I AM THE SENATE" when Windu tried arresting him. A security recording of that is evidence enough of Palpatine's treachery. This argument of yours is flawed. And policeman doesn't mean they are corrupt. They wanted to arrest Palpatine for the good of the Galaxy not because they felt like it. More arguments. Taken from Wookieepedia: "With experience, there were a seemingly infinite number of things a Jedi could achieve through use of the light side. This did not only apply to Jedi, of course, but indeed any Force-user. The Jedi used their powers to gain greater knowledge, in contrast to their ancient enemies, the Sith. Whereas the Sith would use their powers to try to rule the galaxy..." Sounds like Jedi/Sith are on par to me. Taken from Wookieepedia: ''...some Jedi thought of themselves as mere "tools" of the Force. Though this implied a lack of choice regarding an individual's fate, the Jedi, as leading proponents of the light side, insisted that it was, rather, "the ultimate free will." This they explained as being because the Force (at least the light side) did not compel anyone. A destiny could be accepted or spurned. And all choices along the way were free to make...'' Taken from Wookieepedia: (I don't think I need to type this anymore). "The light side of the Force was generally harder to use than the dark side, this being because dark side Force powers are all aggressive and easily fueled by anger or hatred. This allowed dark-siders to advance faster, but they were not inherently more powerful than the light-siders. Light-sided Force abilities are virtually all defensive and passive in nature. While there are light side abilities for increasing ones strength or courage, or incapacitating an enemy, none of them are truly aggressive (with the notable exceptions of Electric Judgment and Sever Force). Jedi using the Force. Jedi using the Force. * Alter Environment * Animal Friendship * Battlemind * Combustion * Cure Disease * Cure Poison * Dissipate Energy * Droid Disable * Electric Judgment * Force Absorb * Force Armor * Force Blinding * Force Enlightenment * Force Healing * Force Light * Force Meld * Force Persuasion * Force Projection * Force Protection * Force Stun * Force Stasis * Force Valor * Hibernation Trance * Malacia * Mind trick * Morichro * Plant Surge * Protection Bubble * Ray * Revitalize * Sever Force * Shatterpoint * Wall Of Light" On the Dark Side: "Many found the dark side to be addictive, being unable to resist its pull the more they subjected themselves to it. Dark side users became more powerful as their physical bodies slowly decayed..." "Most Sith, such as Uthar Wynn and his apprentice Yuthura Ban, believed that they could even control the dark side, but in the end the dark side ended up controlling them.'' Supporting BOTH our Arguments: "Dark Jedi and especially the Sith were capable of furthering their abilities more quickly than Jedi. According to the Jedi, the dark side was only easier to learn and use, and therefore more deceptive, while true power lay with the light. However, certain Sith Lords have appeared to be stronger than their Jedi opponents. Exar Kun was unstoppable until faced with an entire Jedi armada; the superior power of Darth Malak was acknowledged even by the Jedi (i.e. Bastila Shan, who explicitly states that she, and a fellow Jedi were no match for the Dark Lord); later on he could be seen quite effortlessly holding two Jedi in a death grip before killing them; Darth Nihilus destroyed an entire Jedi Council (along with every other sentient on Katarr) while only uttering the 'words' of his voice; Kreia (Darth Traya) almost effortlessly killed all members of another Jedi Council on Dantooine. During the fall of the Republic, Darth Sidious managed to slay three out of four Jedi Masters before eventually succumbing to the martial prowess of Mace Windu (and even this defeat may have been staged). Moreover, his climactic battle with Yoda

Oh, yeah, 'cause without the Force and dependent on technology, we're the happiest galaxy out there! We aren't conquered by a race of Reptilian like sentients who use the Dark Side to build massive space stations that build fleets from pure star matter are we? The Force seems to be the reason every war has started, besides the rebellion. please, please tell me you arn't refering to the Ssi-ruuk they were terrible villians The Rakata... Played KOTOR I? Lol.

Well no one has done it till Qui-Gon did it... Also I'm not sure Dark Side users CAN be force ghosts since the Netherworld of the Force for Dark Siders is..... like hell pretty much.

1. Read my reply to Jediphile 2. Agreed 3. Agreed on Neutral Characters - I would love to roll a "Grey Jedi" despite the fact most people despise them. 4. Yes I do. Yes I want the game to revolve around the Sith empire, I'm just saying that some areas from Chiss space would be a good idea to make available as kind of a "fall back" area. 5. tnemmoc on My mind has undergone a change of opinion.... I WOULD like a PC. I would however like this PC to be a normal Jedi/Sith depending on your actions. No fancy "Force bonds are strong with this one" type character (I like the Exile/Revan storylines don't get me wrong but two is enough for me. A simple Jedi who managed to survive would be awesome, I would love to level that.

1. Sadly, you are going to have to start the game from scratch, because you obviously cannot start at level 20. It would be kind of weird for you to be level one and the Exile/Revan to be level 20.... all for the sake of "Not starting over in a new game"... So IMHO my option would work. 1a. It wouldn't deny choice of gender or alignment. Since canon Revan is male and Exile is Female, the romance could work. Non canon same sex characters wouldn't have it though. I'm 50/50 on the Romance, it would be an interesting twist. Bastila: Revan, you've returned! --- Sees exile depart from the hawk. Who... who- whos this? Exile: Back off sister, he's mine! :D 2. Yes you do care, you care very much :D. 3. No comment 4. There is a Sith race of beings IIRC. I'm heavily betting its them since they are THE RACE.. Kidn of like the Rakata (naturally attuned force race similar to Miralukas). 5. Dialogue, Inquisitive: You said before where you came from Jediphile? (Expects an "influence failure" scenario :D)

Oh, yeah, 'cause without the Force and dependent on technology, we're the happiest galaxy out there! We aren't conquered by a race of Reptilian like sentients who use the Dark Side to build massive space stations that build fleets from pure star matter are we? The Force seems to be the reason every war has started, besides the rebellion.

EDIT: Why did I quote you? WOW! Oh and also I think Qui-Gon (Jedi) figured out how to be a force ghost. Another Jedi accomplishment :D

Apparently he is on there because he was primarily the reason Windu didn't kill Palpatine thus leading the rest of the Jedi to destruction? He then killed Palpatine allowing Skywalker to survive which Skywalkers... wait who am I kidding? WHY is he ON THERE? lol

Did Luke, the main character, die at the end of RotJ? Was the ending "dark and gloomy because the rest of the so-called Imperial rule was"? I'm sorry but if I'm not emo and I think it'd be stupid to just kill off everyone and have the same dark atmosphere exist after the series ends. Killing characters off is the quick and easy and non-intelligent way out. They could be more creative than that.

1. Just because Malak or Sion are blunt instruments lusting for power, and Nihilus too in his own way, doesn't mean that all sith are. Revan's measure of control is not unique. Palpatine is about as wary, and Kreia is far more so than both of them. Besides, it's not like lightsiders don't resort to DS powers. And it's not a problem as such, if they do. The lies in whether they get tempted by the power. As Belaya puts in in KotOR1, "You should be proud of your accomplishment... but never forget that you still have much to learn.As your power grows you will constantly face temptations to slip to the dark side. This is the eternal struggle of the Jedi." Using DS powers is not a problem as such. The problem is that they usually give power to those who use it, and they then become tempted by that power. 2. Actually, that the jedi would both sentence and punish the man is part of their problem, as it makes them both judge and jury as well as the policeman. That's too much power for anyone. And who are the jedi responsible to in the end? Only other jedi. Nice little vicious circle, isn't it? The jedi did better in the prequel movies, because they acted as policemen, but did not meddle in politics. But of course, Palpatine skillfully used that against them, too... 3. Anakin is blinded by power BECAUSE he has a high medi-chlorian count and so is powerful with the force. He has all that power thrown on him, and that makes it far more difficult for him to resist the temptation to use it. After all, if you have power to stop the suffering of the innocent, but are told you can't, because it will corrupt you, then what would you do? I see Revan in a similar manner. I don't see him as the ultimate uber-jedi/sith like some fanboys do, but I do see him as one of the more potent jedi/sith of his time, and with all that power, he could not bear to just sit and watch the innocent die on the Outer Rim while the jedi order did nothing. He knew he could make a difference, and that pushed him to act. That gave him power, which eventually corrupted him. Yes, Anakin is overconfident, but that's not all there was to it IMHO. 4. I disagree. The fight was very evenly matched. Sure, Sidious has more posturing and "you cannot win"-comments. But come, the guy is THE sith lord - of course he has to brag. He just destroyed the jedi order and fooled the republic into becoming HIS empire. Surely that gives him bragging rights And it was evenly matched until Yoda lost his touch and lost the fight. 5. Hmm... "Qui tacet consentire videtur." 1. Albion- DS has no control over their power? Jedi are less in control than the Sith, the Jedi are slaves to the force and do everything because it is the will of the force, the Sith simply use the force for whatever serves their own needs, they are COMPLETELY in control of their power. Which is why the Sith has to be evil when hes a Dark Side user? He CAN'T do good? He CAN'T help someone out? Give me an example of a Sith saying, "Sure, here's a few credits and a bit mroe on top of thta to help out!" to someone begging for money. Yoda: "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" I believe the canon Revan even tells a dying Malak, "The Dark Side isn't any stronger than the Light Malak". Malak agrees then dies. (The dialogue is what I CHOSE personally. Jediphile- using DS powers as a Jedi leads to the DS because these powers tend to be more destructive and deathfull, something that the Jedi try to stay away from and using such powers means you have ALREADY been tempted by the power it grants you, you have simply not admitted it yet. "To fall is a quiet thing," or something (Kreia says is it) While lightside powers enhance your abilities but don't attack anyone, it balances out IMHO. 2. Albion-The Jedi's methods takes longer though, the DS is a quicker path to the same strength over the force. About Saving Private Ryan, the people were on a mission and didn't exactly have the time to stop where they were and wait till WW2 was over having a trial in the middle of nowhere, they had things to do. It would have been too difficult to bring him along so the choice would be kill him or let him go, the Jedi would let him go and pay for it later. I already said the DS was quicker. But every DS user will fall from power or be redeemed and fix what he did (Revan). No Sith order will rule forever. We don't know enough about the True Sith except that it is possibly the race which doesn't count. Jediphile-which shows the Jedi seek power just as much as the Sith do but aren't willing to admit it. The Sith are at least truthful about their intentions. The Jedi seek power? Please explain how. Every example of the Jedi's "Power" is only confined to their order. They keep a tight rule but for good reasons. The Jedi do make mistakes, it is sentient nature. And you'd be crazy to not seek to better your abilities, that'd sound stupid. "Do not train with the force, let the Sith get strong, we don't want to be able to fight them!" Big doh. 3. Albion- it didn't really seem to be that even and shifting the whole time to me. We have one part where Anakin almost cuts Obi-Wan's head off with his own lightsaber until Obi-Wan manages to barely hit him off, and parts where they are saber-locked that Anakin using one hand against Obi's two hands and winning. Anakin being blind with power was a fault of his character, not the DS. There have been many Sith who know their abilities well and aren't too overconfident. On another note, the LS actually made the Jedi more blind than any Sith. They trusted too much, allowing Palpatine to rise to power and allowing Anakin to be seduced by the dark side, all without them knowing. Its still even shifted, Obi-Wan manages to kick Anakin like 3 times and almost nearly makes Anakin fall off a cliff. The fight was meant to be equal..... except for that last bit. Was it that the LS blinded the Jedi, or that the Jedi couldn't just walk in and kill Palpatine due to Republic reasons? They sensed his plot ealry on. Jediphile- I don't really see anything to argue here. You're pretty much giving the facts. I disagree. He didn't have to "obtain" the power to stop innocents (padme) from Suffering/dying. That is the Jedi's JOB. If the future is set, you cannot change it. Prime example is Padme still dying. It can be argued that the Palpatine even lied about Plageuis' abilities to save people from death to lure Anakin... which it worked. 4. Albion- the whole time Yoda is flying around the room, just staying clear of Palpatine's attacks. Their postitions wouldn't have been reversed because Palpatine had a better position to fight from (the center of the pad) because HE wasn't on the defensive. It was Yoda's fault he was in a bad postion to resist the blast. Yoda still had to draw heavily upon the force to dodge them, I'm sure the 3ft greenthing wasn't a natural acrobat. And he intercepts one of the Senate Chairs and sends it back at Palpatine. Palpatine lost his lightsaber to Yoda somewhere as well, can't remember where. Because Yoda jumps up to where Palpatine is and ignites his lightsaber. Palpatine has to resort to Force Shock. Jediphile- Yoda was on the defensive the whole time, it wasn't very even except in the beginning when they were fighting with lightsabers. Read above. 5. uhhh...translation please? Agreed.

That's the entire point. There will always be evil for Revan/Exile to fight till they pass away from battle or natural causes. The entire KOTOR series has been dark and gloomy yes, so a happy ending would make it seem like your struggle was worth it. (OH I played as Revan and destroyed the star Forge then played as the Exile and destroyed the Triumvirate then played as Revan/Exile/Add PC here and everyone died. Doesn't fit.

Wait...what? The Sith'ari is supposed to permanently destroy the Jedi and the Republic? Since when was that prohecised? I thought he was just supposed to make the Sith stronger than ever. This may be true but I believe that in order for a Sith to be considered strong he has to crush any and all opposition to his rule. Just my opinion. Wookieepedia: "Sometime during the early history of the First Sith Empire, the coming of the Sith'ari was foretold. Inspired by the legend of Adas, the Sith'ari was prophesied a perfect being, free of all restrictions

If Kreia had succeeded in using the Exile or Nihilus to actually "kill off" the force, would it have been a bad thing? Sure from a fan's view it would be horrible! No more Jedi or Sith! But for the galaxy as a whole. Think about the pro. No threat from Dark Side users. Con: No Jedi to help win wars. The galaxy's fate would rest in the hands of conventional means. No planet-destroying monsters like Nihilus for anyone to worry about. Technology would be the name of the game, thus the Republic may flourish for an eternity with a galaxy full of happy citizens. Then again if the force had died before the Mandalorian wars then everyone would be speaking Mandalorian. Its debatable at best.