guguma

I am not entirely sure why I enjoyed Tyranny more than PoE !. Honestly I am not really a fan of hover-over lore info on highlighted text. It probably did not feel over the top, or it might be this "tightness" you are mentioning. If I understand correctly by more tight you mean something like it does not drag on, more compact and to the point? Yes, I will probably have a trial, or play through a shared library. It is not the money that I am bothered about, when you think about it even bad games are actually worth their money if you calculate their cost in entertainment/hour. It is about time, If i can enjoy something better, why waste time on that. Honestly, I would not hesitate to pay for quality, something like BG2 quality I would pay quite a bit for, but that is not how it actually works in life I think I can agree with you on " If anything you might enjoy Deadfire a lot more than PoE1 for similar reasons" point and give it a shot.

Hi All, From time to time, I get these "need to play an RPG" moments. I am wondering if I should give PoE: II a shot. Before you say "just try it man, why are you even asking, and wasting our time" let me provide my experience with PoE 1. I have a fondness for Obsidian, probably because I always saw it as a continuation of Black Isle Studios, and I assume that they kept following this manifesto "Simply put, our goal is to create the best electronic RPG's on the market. Our team is made up of core RPGer's who work on nothing else. We create the kind of games we want to play, and by doing so, hope to stay true to the RPG enthusiast" I backed PoE 1, and I was disappointed. I found it over the top on the worldbuilding aspect, over the top dialogue, with dull characters, static environments etc. It seemed to me that the designers have focused more on playing Tolkien circlejerking with the fans who like this kind of stuff and forgot about what makes a good RPG, which is engagement, involvement, a story which tags you along and keeps you curious and surprised. At least, that is what I see when I look at Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, and Fallout 1 & 2, which has been rated on the top RPG charts since forever. At the time I saw some people who share this opinion, but the general consensus was "come on guys, let us think of this one as Baldur's Gate 1 they are just setting up the world, they needed to get their finances in order etc., PoE 2 will be much better just like BG2 was far better than BG1". I shared the same opinion, until, sometime during development I saw post about devs/designers (names will not be given) boasting about some language glyphs they have been working on which made me lose hope about the second game. Some poeple might enjoy this kind of stuff, but I do not find coming up with a custom language, custom names etc. remotely interesting in this day and age, it has been done and done, given enough effort (far less than the time in the order of game development time) anyone can create a custom language. This is the kind of creativity I would expect from a Bethesda designer/developer "let us change the names of weekdays by replacing -day to -tagh, awesome". Honestly I remember quite many things from BG2 even though I have not touched it in ages, but I only remember that there was a bearded villain jumping about from people to people and had something to do with the Gods, while I needed an English-PoE Welsh Hybrid language dictionary, from PoE. The characters, and the story felt like "lets take stuff from venerated titles, amplify the good and remove the bad, it will turn out to be fine". It is not fine. Everything felt so over the top, every companion has some exoticness, some deep something, some excessive personality. Maybe not Eder, he was a fine fighter dude (did he have something with his brother? I do not remember). I believe that subtlety, is an art. If you stick something into someone's face it does not make it interesting. With characters and NPCs it is better if the player reads into their character, rather than them screaming at the player "I am a conservative elf who hates slavers because I was taken as a slave from my homeland of Glifnifchflhg (which means the pride of the elves in our language) and taken to Engwoth(which means big castle in our language) I am insecure about my magic abilities and my life's purpose is to find my dads ring, Frhwh (Frhwh is a curse in our language it is similar to the F word in your language, I just wanted to clarify it to you)" This is again my opinion but I think modern RPGs fail with regards to making the player connect with the character they are playing, and keep the curiousity and engagement flowing, this also applies to the villain. This is where Planescape and Baldur's Gate really shine. Taking BG2 as an example, wait why am I in a cage? ok weird wizard dude experimenting on me, minor villain?, talking about potential, helping me or what, wait where did shadow thieves come from what does this have to do with anything. Hmm, strange dungeon, why is there an elvish looking room here with alarms, dryad mentioned her, what is this guys problem, oh wow we are out, wait what is going on suddenly cowled wizards, oh oh it seems like this wizard is the main villain, wait what they took my sister dang! And suddenly you find youself in an area full of life, there are mundane merchants some useless bars, an actually useful merchant, an interesting quest in a circus tent, go to slums, there is a locked sphere here what is that, some cool thief character (Gaelan Bayle, this is how you make a good NPC, everyone remembers Gaelan although he is not that significant, and talks plain English) hmm ok seems like I need to collect money, go to Copper Coronet, again lively environment, capturing music, stuff to do, like seriously guys (Dog fights, slave fights, Firkraag, child murderer on the top floor was just the things I remember stuffed in Copper Coronet) And suddenly Bodhi, another offer, what does the vampires have anything to do with me? should I spy for the thieves guild, double cross the rival guild, Edwin? nether scrolls?. I mean one can continue forever, regarding the villlain, this dude gets into my dreams, some stuff he talks about are interesting, oh dang sister/brother stuff, oh no my soul is gone etc. etc. We were kept in constant engagement with the villain Simply throwing a lame backstory about your magic abilities and what makes you special, and not revisiting this at all and throwing you in a dull world where events has nothing to do with you personally does not make the story about you. PoE was not terribly bad at this, but felt like bad copy and paste. I recently played Kingmaker, same issues there, I am sorry for the long post, and a bit of rant. Look, to each his/her own, but this is my opinion about RPGs and games. Being in software business myself I know that it is tedious and hard to make games, juggling funding and finances on top of it makes it even harder, I am not the best writer out there, neither am I an accomplished game designer. I would like to know if this game is for me because I would like to play something that I would enjoy, take me a bit away from daily headaches. Final Note: I remember enjoying Tyranny very very much. Apart from Barik's voice, nothing personal against the voice actor, but I just cannot stand this voice actors, ehmm.. voicing?. I wish Obsidian would expand Tyranny, or developed on it. If you read through all of this, I appreciate it, and your comments are appreciated

Divinity Original Sin's budget was over 4 million euros (which was at that time over 5 million dollars). Majority of their budget didn't come from KS as they only collected 1 million dollars to finish the game. Before they started their kickstarter Larian was already build their engine and engine tools in most parts and most of the game itself. Larian also did in their KS for D:OS mistake to promise too much and they had to take back some of those promises during developing the game. Divinity Original Sin 2 also had KS for it, that produced over 2 million dollars and Larian puts in their own money also in that game so it budget is about same as the budget of the first game. There are benefits and draw back in both making own engine and using general purpose engine like unity. And those benefits and draw back vary from project to project and there which is why companies make assessments of their needs and select tool according to them. One thing is certain that Obsidian didn't have their own engine ready when they started their KS and making one from the scratch would have meant additional developing time, as it takes time to build engine. And there is also one thing that needs to be taking in consideration when you compare D:OS to PoE, which is difference in typical salaries in Belgium and California. Come on now, and Obsidian had no spare funds at all. According PCGamer, Larian loaned money from banks, got outside investors and also got the Kickstarter funds. Shows enormous dedication, if nothing else. Larian's "dream RPG" concept does not really overlap with mine, but I enjoyed playing it. Maybe a better comparison to PoE will be Torment: Tides of Numenera (definitely a friendly comparison though, not as rivals), that one took much longer to be sure and still not out.

There are too many posts to quote since I replied last, so I am quoting Sawyer here, as his input is quite relevant. First and foremost, thank you for clarifying these points, simply chiming in to clarify these points is a show of care and makes me appreciative. Not being in the business myself, it is hard to tell who did what, even from the "credits" roll. But I assumed Lead Designers (Project Directors) had a lot to say regarding the overall quality of the final product and held,although unfairly, much of the responsibility. My original comment is now edited to reflect this information. My assumptions regarding JE Sawyer and MC Avellone stem from the idea mentioned above. I might be misguided, but that does not change my opinion regarding PoE itself. Regarding the 4 Million issue, if you think that a company puts 4 million dollars in a safe and keeps paying everything from that until a project is finished, than it is not much. That is not, and should not be, how companies work though. One can squeeze a lot from million dollar sums by proper handling of that money. Also I have to mention Larian's Divinity Original Sin 2 here. 1 Million Budget, using their own engine (by the way the only reason I am bringing the engine Issue up here is not because I want the developers to come up with their engine, definitely not, unity is fine, and certainly saves a lot of resources (funds, work etc). Using unity would allow them to allocate those resources where it is needed). Let us not get into comparing Original Sin to PoE, though. Original Sin is not a great RPG in terms of story writing etc. and had way too many cheap jokes for my liking. About BG2 being childish, along with the writing, I have to disagree. Your choices along the questlines mostly sidequests were "I will go where I want when I want", and "I will give you a cupcake if you let me go", yes I agree. But regarding the overall story Irenicus, Bodhi, Shadow Guild, Firkraag, The Drow, Solaufein, the elves, Edwin, Harpers. One cannot really pinpoint one as absolute evil for evil's sake, or a patron saint of saints. I honestly wished there would be an option to gift Irenicus another Bhaalspawn's soul. Anyway... Regarding the MegaDungeon, I agree with Revan91 there, it would have been more interesting with less levels but better design. But, you know what, I am mostly impressed with the constructive criticism coming from the community, most often one gets the typical "go away if you do not like it, duh, lol" kind of attitude. I am glad that the issues I raised, although hastily done and messy at first, were tested by either constructive criticism or support. If the developers are listening to the community, and the community is mostly like this in this thread, who knows, maybe there is really hope for PoE 2, and future RPGs from Obsidian.

I don't know that I would go all that far, but yes, people who claim today that Baldur's Gate 2 is the best RPG ever made are letting their nostalgia have a stronger say that it should. At the time they came out they were great games. By todays standards of gameplay, more nuanced story, and especially graphics.... they are pretty average. Eternity isn't perfect. It has serious pacing problems, the setting does need work, many things in game for "backers" were not good features and would have been better off left out. It has never been a vastly inferior, unplayble, game breaking bug mess that many of the die hards on RPG Codex and this forum say it is though. Objectively speaking, it is not my sense of nostalgia. PoE graphics is obviously better, but I cannot claim the same about the setting, or the story or the NPC's or NPC interactions. BG2 never stopped surprising you during the questlines, at least before Underdark. NPC's were definitely more interesting and they did not read like an encyclopedia, here you click on them ask them 200 questions about "themselves", not about the circumstances or the story(most of them). They might as well hand you their diary and be done with it. PoE might have a more modern engine (Unity), but it does not create the same sense of absorption at all. When you head into Slums in BG2, it feels and acts like slums, people shouting, cats wandering, the accent and the manner of speech of the voice actors (NPC's), inns and taverns are al beautifully designed and drawn. PoE cities, NPC's and the environments are horribly static. I am not upset because PoE is not a clone of BG2 or Planescape Torment. What makes me upset is the amount of effort shown, and all this Pseudo-Language stuff Sawyer seems to be obsessed with. They were given 4 Million Dollars, 4 Million is NO JOKE, if you also consider the investment potential. They did not even make their own engine. The engine is there, funds are available, and no one complained about the time it would take them to finish the game. Do what you do best Obsidian, we said, and nothing else. After my initial complaint after finishing PoE, I had hopes for PoE 2. I thought, OK, it was their first try, just like how the initial BG was good but not great, they will show much more effort and make PoE 2 much better. It makes one snap though when you login after months and see Sawyer showcasing his fascination with scripts. I am not against creating a world (language included), but make the game better "first", give us interesting characters, interesting places and interesting plots, good stories. Then you can name your creatures gul's or fampyr's or locations Gwyrfyn Vyrwyn, whatever you like. But, as the other poster said, if this game does not satisfy me, I will simply move on. But that does not mean that I will not raise my opinion. Long story short, what made me a fan of the old IE games, particularly BG2 and Planescape was how compelling they were. They managed to keep you curious about what is going to happen next, even in sidequests, and managed to surprise you at every turn. And that in my opinion is great storytelling in an RPG. Not calling Mondays, Montag's like Bethesda RPG's do, and this is basically what Sawyer does with his scripts. As I said, Tyranny, although it felt very experimental and incomplete, although it was buggy and the combat was hectic, it was definitely interesting and somewhat compelling.

Josh Sawyer, playing Tolkien... This is the very reason Pillars of Eternity (PoE) was such a disappointment. And here we go again. I was extremely disappointed with PoE solely due to this reason. Rather than an RPG, which was supposed to be a spiritual successor to IE games, we were given a semi-Welsh, semi-English history of lamelands to read. Everything including the combat, areas, NPC's (bar Durance, Mother and maybe Eder) was incredibly dull, comparing those lifeless cities to the cities in BG2 is just painful. I was expecting Avellone to step in and clean up this mess, exactly like he did with Neverwinter Nights 2. Remember the kalach-cha, vanilla NWN2, that is Sawyer right there with Avellone saving the merchandise in MotB. Now that he left Obsidian, it seems like we are stuck with this. Edit: The strike-through comment of mine stemmed from my certain assumptions, later shown to be wrong, I am leaving it there but crossing it. I will not be so cruel, PoE was OK, but only that. Thousands of people did not donate money so that Josh Sawyer could play Tolkien. Instead of coming up with better story writing, fixing issues with the combat and talent system, and focusing on ambience, someone is working on his runes. Amazing! I am not impressed. At least learn something from Tyranny! Tyranny felt quite experimental and incomplete, yet I would take it over PoE any day.

1) Quote my statement where I oh so blatantly declared how fantasy should work. 2) If you are trying to deconstruct me make a meaningful statement about: "I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language." --------------------------- Agreed. --------------------------- @Ieldra: --- @guguma: You can't reasonably expect people to adapt to your culture if your're travelling in the domain of their's. --- I think you misunderstood my sarcasm, if you are referring to my statement about traveling through Denmark.

Those names have historic roots, based on history, The History, that actually happened, sadly most are named after massacred and extinct Native Americans, not only states but many cities and counties too. I just looked at what Mississippi meant and, surprise, it means "The Father of Waters" We know Massachusetts, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Copenhagen, because we live on earth. When someone tells you they live in Copenhagen, you understand perfectly well what they mean. I do not intend to read the "Collected Volumes on the History of Dyrwood" or keep a "Concise Engwithian Dictionary" with me while I am trying to enjoy a story. Well but Copenhagen isn't the real name it's København. It's just foreigners to Scandinavia that call it Copenhagen. In old norse it's called Kaupmannahøfn which literally means Merchant City. So for me calling things something other than standard english words is no problem Exactly, thus when the city was founded it was named "Merchant City" (Merchant's Haven maybe?), it was given a meaningful name, just like how every culture names everything. Just as the Mississippi example. So for you calling things something other than standard English words is no problem, tsk tsk, unbelieveable. I always call things in English, I travel to many countries yet I insist calling everything in English. When I go to Denmark I go up to the train conductor and tell them they have made a huge mistake, I will go to Copenhagen not to some nonsense called København and when s/he replies to me in Danish, I raise my arms in complete bafflement and yell them to stop talking nonsense. Is this what you were able to fathom from all my posts? A large portion of people in this argument are comparing the evolution of words and languages over thousands of years, uttered by thousands of cultures and evolved through years of intercultural relations, to the evolution of non-complete languages created in the past 3 years.

What do you expect me to do, if you still insist on not seeing the big picture but dwell on individual words. I agree that the position is nothing alike a consul. Then what is the position alike, did such a position ever exist in the real world? Is the position alike a "duc". "Duc" resembles the idea of a duke, a feodal ruler, not elected. A consul conveys the idea of an elected official, yet not by the people but rather by a favored class. Which one has closer meaning to the ruling class of Vailian Republics? If you are going to use "duc" you might as well use "duke" instead. Would you like it if I used "Consool" instead of Consul. I would not, because Consool screams "I wanted to say consul, but did not, so I made a silly word for consul, now I have to define what Consool means, however I might have simply used consul instead and redefined the word in my setting". Just as "Duc" screams, "I wanted to say duke, but did not, so I made a silly word for duke, now I have to define what Duc means, however I might have simply used duke instead and redefined the word in my setting."

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc. I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway). English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke. Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world. First, he knows that it's not your native language, don't need to shout, he never said it was, but you ARE speaking English or at least writing it are you not? So you do speak English even if it is not your native language, so your point is irrelevant, the words you use when you speak English are derived from other languages in many cases including French. Second, and excuse me for shouting now but it is justified in this case, HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO TELL US WHAT WE CAN AND CAN'T HAVE IN FANTASY! Who the **** do you think you are to come here and tell us that we can't have something just because you personally don't like it? How dare you presume to tell people what they shouldn't do in a Fantasy setting? *Points to door* Go home and think about what you have done, next thing you'll be declaring that guns don't belong in Fantasy either... I wonder why people find it hard to read, interpret and dwell on what they are about to say before speaking their mind. I am entitled to state my opinion about the game or the setting, whether it is negative or positive, and that is exactly what I am doing here. There is nothing daring about that. I might as well say that I do not enjoy guns or monks being in a fantasy world, I did not, but I sure can. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am trying to draw attention to pseudo-language vs. other forms of creativity and elements of immersion, where both uses resources from the same pool and stating that in my opinion other forms of creativity and elements of immersion adds more value to a product compared to utilizing a pseudo-language." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If one is not entitled to speak what they do not like, then every creation must be accepted as flawless, whether it is an art, or a book, or a game, or a fantasy setting or a piece of music. First you take on this zealous attitude of defending what is already there (some do this blindly, some actually provide reasons which is perfectly fine), then you wonder why products of the gaming industry have become so shallow, so cliche! Consumer 1: "I do not enjoy what is done with the language" Consumer Mob: "It is perfectly fine, you do not understand what you are talking about" Consumer 2: "I think combat could be better" Consumer Mob: "No it is perfectly fine, you are stupid, if you can do better do it yourself ...rabble rabble..." Consumer 3: "It seems to me you skimmed off from the storytelling" Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble...We like it, it is the perfect length, do not play it if you do not like it ...rabble rabble..." Consumer 4: "I believe classes and abilities need improvement, it lacks some complexity" Consumer Mob: "...rabble rabble... no it does not, you need to get used to it ..rabble rabble..." Now if I were a game developer and I saw this, I would feel absolutely no pressure of thriving to make a better product release, I have done just fine. In fact I can even do less and people will love it anyhow. Same goes with art, literature, movies, music etc... @fglakin I would either use "duke" but state in the lore clearly how these dukes are elected to reflect upon the different political structure. Or use something like a "consul". From the wiki: Vailian Republics are rooted in what we would call a Renaissance culture, closely resembling the Italian city-states.[2]. The land is divided among fourteen republics, each ruled by duc or ducess, and has voting rights on the sengretta ducala ("ducal congress" in Vallian) Among them five "great cities" (cuiteti beli), considered "grand" republics, and have greater voting power in their electoral council; these cities are Ancenze, Ozia, Revua, Selona, and Spirento. The leaders of these republics are known as the ducs bels, or "great ducs", and form the leading force of the ducal congress. Alternate option Vailian Republics closely resembles the Italian city-states.[2]. The land is divided among fourteen republics, each ruled by a consul, and has voting rights on the Consular Senate Among them five grand republics have greater voting power in their electoral council; these cities are Ancenze, Ozia, Revua, Selona, and Spirento. The leaders of these republics are known as the Proconsuls (or High Consul you choose), and form the leading force of the Consular Senate. It does not have to be consul, or consular senate, use any you would like. But it sure gets rid of all this quotation emphasis, and parentheses in every single sentence. And Pallegina can still be given an authentic pronunciation of these Consuls (Consulare), Consular Senate (Senato di Consulare), yet there is not a necessity to explain what she meant afterwards since it is pretty straightforward. "Sengretta Ducala" however is not, or "ducs bels" they resemble more like Sangria of the Duke, or Ducks Bells, or Beautiful (Nice) Duke. Most importantly what is done is done. The setting is set, it is not going to change, as I said before if you do not believe me observe someone we all like. Look at RPG's Chris Avellone worked at and look at the parts he wrote (including PoE), his companions, questlines, storylines are damn impressive yet the language is plain and simple (unless it is a copyrighted term from a setting).

Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc. I don't see why this disturbs you so much. I think they did a good job of it. It was still clear what the words meant, but they were gibbered enough to make it feel different and exotic (and not reveal too much too early, for most people anyway). English IS NOT MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, as I have said before. The game is in English not in French or Serbian so yes it makes much more sense to use vampire and duke. Do not cross the barrier between a fantasy world and the real one. Languages evolve, thus some utterance ends up being "beef". There is no justification for such evolution in a fantasy world. Virtually every speaker of Ænglisc who lived after the Norman invasion spoke like that, yourself included. Chances are that you would say something like "I eat beef", rather than "I eat cowflesh". So what's with this "beef" business? Are "vampire" and "duke" so much better? Those are just butchered versions of the perfectly fine Serbo-Croat word vampir and the perfectly fine French word duc. Indeed, the PoE variants of words feel quite fitting for a Medieval European based fantasy setting IMO. In some ways more authentic than the modern English variants actually, if you know a little of (or from) European languages. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who feel irritated by those words, are people who only speak English. Again English is not my native language, I am not offended by "words", I am offended by the idea that making up words for a fantasy setting is "creative", and a great way to use resources such as "time" and "money". He said "honest and harsh", not "sane and reasonable". I see all these responses, all are about justifying such creation of words and languages and the basis for that justification all point to having a "method" behind it, or how words evolve in real life, or how these are not made up but referenced from existing or archaic languages. Ok. What part of "Just because there is a methodology behind it, does not justify doing it" is so confusing to understand? Sad thing is some people seems to have confused me for a native English speaker, and assumes that I am insisting on English usage only because I have absolutely no idea that other cultures and languages exist, and even if they did, I believe that they are inferior to English. I am not going to insist further, if you believe a fantasy setting should come with a set of pseudo-languages, or pseudo-words fine with me. But I believe that just 1 very interesting piece of lore, 1 very interesting original questline, 1 very original character, all these contribute much more value to a setting and actually require some creative, out of the box thinking lest they resemble cliche's. You can create a kingdom ruled by "ducs" where magic is handled by "Gwiddonod" living in "Hochewalt" and by an order of "magos" named "rycerze wiedzy". Or You can create a kingdom ruled by dukes where magic is handled by witches living in highforest and by an order of wizards named knights of knowledge. In my opinion both these mini-settings are one and the same, in fact a forced attempt at creativity in the first example actually manages to diminish the value of this setting. SO YES, I AM GIVING THE SETTING A "3/10" BECAUSE ANY ATTEMPT AT IMMERSION IS INTERRUPTED BY A SMEARING OF PSEUDO-WORDS TO MY FACE, SCREAMING TO ME THAT IT BELONGS TO A SETTING, IT IS PUT THERE BY SOMEONE WHO THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE VERY CREATIVE, VERY ORIGINAL.

Those names have historic roots, based on history, The History, that actually happened, sadly most are named after massacred and extinct Native Americans, not only states but many cities and counties too. I just looked at what Mississippi meant and, surprise, it means "The Father of Waters" We know Massachusetts, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Copenhagen, because we live on earth. When someone tells you they live in Copenhagen, you understand perfectly well what they mean. I do not intend to read the "Collected Volumes on the History of Dyrwood" or keep a "Concise Engwithian Dictionary" with me while I am trying to enjoy a story. So, you basically blame the developers for your own laziness and inability to immerse yourself in a story? Somehow, it's their fault for being too thorough in developing a setting? That's....not a very sensible attitude to have? Have a very nice day. -fgalkin I am saying the exact opposite, being thorough in developing a setting does not necessitate silly language games, the energy and resources used for this nonsense could have been spent in better quest lines and adventures, which surprisingly enhances immersion. I should design an RPG for you that teaches you Pseudo-Russian I am sure you will like it much better than PoE. You can immerse yourself in delightful linguistic gibberish. I find the Deity Quests Immersive, the sudden purple soul visions immersive, Durance and Grieving Mother's secrecy immersive, The question of "What the Dunryd Row is about?" immersive, What has occurred under Caed Nua (The Watcher's Stronghold) immersive, the sudden riot in animancy hearings immersive. But Lle a Rhemen ? I do not find this immersive. If that is your definition of immersive, well it is your definition of immersive... I agree, please, I am talking about excessive use here. A race called Engwithan's is perfectly fine, or "Adra". Think of it this way if Forgotten Realms elves referred to everyone in their own language then wouldn't it devalue the word "Irenicus"? I do not know if what you are telling here is based on fact, but I would not be surprised if this is Mr. Sawyer's touch of brilliance. I do not remember any use of these pseudo-languages in Durance or Grieving Mother dialogues. Maybe we would not be so wrong about the (Poe - Expansion) and (NWN2 - MotB) comparison, if the expansion is lead by Avellone instead.

Those names have historic roots, based on history, The History, that actually happened, sadly most are named after massacred and extinct Native Americans, not only states but many cities and counties too. I just looked at what Mississippi meant and, surprise, it means "The Father of Waters" We know Massachusetts, Paris, Berlin, Cairo, Copenhagen, because we live on earth. When someone tells you they live in Copenhagen, you understand perfectly well what they mean. I do not intend to read the "Collected Volumes on the History of Dyrwood" or keep a "Concise Engwithian Dictionary" with me while I am trying to enjoy a story.

I cannot tell if this is sarcasm, I am quite certain that I did "NOT" inspire Obsidian into making this game nor plant the idea of a Kickstarter project. With the spoiler I wanted to convey the idea that I did wish for this to happen, and that I am happy with the outcome. I assumed it would be at the very least satisfactory, and it turned out to be quite good. Except "the language nonsense" as I call it, it seems I have a special dislike for this kind of "creativity". Because the dialogue, and the books, and the glossary are the medium in which the setting and the lore is experienced by the player, and linguistics plays a major part in it.

DOUBLE POST

I thought everyone got the idea that etymological roots are utilized to "create" these nonsense words, but just because it has a methodology behind it does not justify doing it. One can revert to their native language when they lack the word they need to express themselves, but would it mean anything? English is a foreign language to me, if I lacked the words in English to explain something here on this forum and reverted to my native language you would not understand anything and would ask me what I meant, and I would go find a way to express it in the English language. It would be interesting to add a companion who insisted using words from their native language, and would not know the translation to common. It makes no sense for them to utter words in their native language and right afterwards give us a common translation. But I totally agree with PoE being a NWN2 to an upcoming MoTB

Before I begin, I must tell you that the game is great. How can it not be great among the heap of crap shoved to our faces by the gaming industry, but considering what is expected from Obsidian, when I set high standards for this game, it is not great. Not great does not mean that it is not "good". So I do like the game but I think the developers with their credentials are capable of doing much better (like how Baldur's Gate was very good, but Baldur's Gate 2 was epic, I hope the next addition to this series will be as such) And long story short, I am glad that this project happened, having wished for it way before it was on Kickstarter, so thank you Obsidian: There is one (maybe two) aspects to this game that amounts to my disappointment (and before I get flamed in the least constructive and silliest manners for my comments I must add that, yes, I am aware that I am not the ultimate authority on everything RPGs, and gaming, and I am aware that there is no reason my opinion should matter more than anyone elses). That one aspect is "The Setting" of the game and one particular thing done in this setting that bothers me the most, the second aspect is the "dull feeling" I got from the game. So here I go THE SETTING (3/10) I do like the world, I like the races, classes, and I like how the main story is interesting (just began Act III, and so far I am still curious), so why then I am giving the setting a 3 out of 10? It is because of this silly language thing that you have done... You know that I mean right, I am talking about this "fampyr" and "duc" business. Read my quote on the spoilers and my couple other posts, I find Elder Scrolls series utterly disgusting because the setting seems to have been created by 12 year olds who think changing monday and sunday to montag and suntag is creative writing, creative thinking. What I do not understand is that how come you guys have done the exact same thing here, and it is worse really. All those words with an unnecessary use of "th","w", and vowels with accents, all this "Anvii ora Toha", "Lle a Rhemen", "Cean Gwla", "Anamfatha" business. It was interesting when Tolkien did come up with entire languages but it really is not anymore, if you did construct entire languages for the game it is a waste of resources (which is actually not very hard to do). When I interact with NPC's it is as if all of them are my lingustics instructor, Elf: ...Our tribal leaders, the anamfath... Sagani: ...I am on "Torkik Zokrik"(do not remember the actual thing), a journey.... Glossary: ...Caen Gwla, blood mother,.... A direct relation of this is exactly like Talking to a French(Elf) person in English(Common), and they say "I am "aller au cinema", which means I am going to the movies, then I will eat "creme glacee", which means I will eat some ice cream. Seriously who talks like that? And of course there is all this: Duc = Duke Erl = Earl Conyg = King Thayn = Thane Fampyr = Vampire Gul = Ghoul Dargul = Greater Ghoul? goes on forever My goodness, how impressive, in this setting the local lords are "duc"s, very similar to dukes, but they call them "duc"s how original and inspiring. You should have called them ducks instead. Back to being serious now, I understand in fantasy settings there will be special occasions these pseudo-language names are to be used and they actually convey an interest, like personal names, names of a couple of landmarks where the idea is to add some mystery some obscurity, but when overdone it becomes meaningless gibberish!!! e.g. In Baldur's Gate, Watcher's Keep conveys an idea, Helm is "The Watcher", if it was called "Occulo Glavo Defil Krepta" it would mean absolutely nothing, just as Underdark, Trademeet, Umar Hills, are still very interesting names but also carry some meaning and are not complete gibberish, and there is a reason I remember these places but I keep forgetting "Lle a Rhemen" or "Cilaban Rilag" which does not stir any sort of emotion or a sense of danger or interest. However think how it would be if they were instead called, completely making these up, "Rhemen Ritual Circle" or "Ruins of Rilag"? or in Planescape Torment, can it get more interesting than "Alley of Lingering Sighs", would it be better to call it some gibberish? If anyone thinks this is meaningfully creative and immersive we should encourage more of this nonsense why don't we Dwarf = Beerdfolc Elf = Eeerfolc Orlan = Shirtfolc Sword = Sabr'edu Greatsword = Dar Sabr'edu Dagger = Shivv'ass Ship = Galley-vou Inn = Rest'a'casa Lion = Aslan etc. etc. THE DULL FEELING There is not much to say here, the cities and towns lack some dynamics, and the entire game is lacking on surprises and plot twists just as Baldur's Gate was lacking them but Baldur's Gate 2 actually had them so I am hoping this will happen in the next game. The towns and villages have just a background music not ambient sounds, again in Baldur's Gate 2 when you went to the Slums or in Copper Coronet you could hear muffled conversations, shouts (WHO ARE YOUUU, or WHY YOUU), doors creaking, people rushing to you etc. Or we had lords turning out to be dragons, commoners turning out to be bhaalspawns, complicated guild wars etc. END NOTE I did not get into Combat, The Exceptionally Dull Stronghold, The Half-Interesting Mega Dungeon (it does not matter if it is 15 floors, Watcher's Keep with 5 levels was much more interesting), The Items where none of them felt any special, The very short and not class specific Talent tree, and all that... As I said, I am happy that Pillars of Eternity exists, I am happy to play it but I really think that you can do much better. I hope the next game in the series will have more polished combat, much more interesting abilities and talents, dual-multi classes, and actually unique items. I also hope that there will be less of enchanting, or a much better system, hunting flowers, body parts and pets are for world of warcraft the intellectual resources might better be spent elsewhere. Thanks for reading.

Description: Game version is GOG, updated to 1.04 My main character is a fighter, when I use Knockdown or a weapon which has a chance to apply prone on crit applies prone; however it lasts 0.0 seconds. Patch 1.04 notes claim that this issue is fixed however it seems like the fix is not retroactive. Honestly I am looking for a hotfix, it sort of breaks the game. If it could be fixed by editing a file or via console I would welcome that option too. Steps to Reproduce the Issue: Choose knockdown, hit enemy, observe that the enemy falls down and immediately gets up. Important Files: Savegame & Output Log & DxDiag https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5y0esztjl80xhpc/AADs3XshNBw6A7qw3hPMnoMMa?dl=0 My output log is around 13MB and full of NullReferenceException

Dear Obsidian, On November 2011 I cried outloud on this very forum if Obsidian was planning to rock us with a new rpg: on April 2012 after the success of Wasteland 2 I was hoping obsidian will use kickstarter to launch their own rpg. I just stumbled upon Project Eternity on a random blog, jumped to the kickstarter link and saw that the project has already been funded watched the brief project intro and jumped here. What I loved about BG and PT was that these two games were not only games but they were art, and it was like reading an exciting book going through the games they were like books where you could help shape the story as well as enjoying the story and the world around you where you did not really have total control in my humble opinion these were what video games as a "MEDIA" should be. And I do not need to know more about Project Eternity, I am absolutely certain that it is going to be amazing, I believe the hardest task for obsidian will be to keep it at least on par (if not better) with PT, and BG series. What I would like to know at this point is though if I can still contribute to the project even if the kickstarter funding has ended? And a big personal thank you for all this, I hope that we will enjoy the adventure, it will be profitable for obsidian, and that people will finally understand that running around screaming at dragons while collecting mushrooms in a meaningless world is NOT role playing in an absorbing environment, and creating npc's with obscure names and changing the names of the week to montag and suntag is NOT creative storytelling.

Fallout 3 was thousand times better than Brotherhood of Steel. Brotherhood of Steel was a tactical assault game in the Fallout setting, it was not even claimed to be an RPG in the first place. I started playing Fallout 3 with my best intentions, yet horrible dialogue with forced humor, and forced gore (I think Bethesda reached the conclusion that Fallout 1&2 were so awesome because of gory deaths and they decided to make everyones head fall off) it became unbearable...

Dear Obsidian, Following the success of the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter and recent events with Bethesda Softworks, don't you think that it is time to kickstart one of your own projects? I do not even understand why in the first place you made a deal with Bethesda for Fallout NV, I cannot comprehend it, first they steal Black Isle's baby, disfigure it, rape it, ruin it, then Obsidian steps in trying to add some quality writing and story to the game only to be screwed over by almighty Bethesda Softworks. Why? Why? Why? Atari is probably poking around if the fanbase of Baldur's Gate exists with the Baldur's Gate Enchanced Edition, Wasteland 2 looked for the fanbase of old school RPG's and they found it, the fanbase is there, why are you not using Kickstarter for a project of your own? I usually have an emotional look at things and tend to forget to account for the financial situation of it but $2.5 Million, should be able to give birth to a game AND bring profit afterwards and possibly it would be much more than enough. Other than the financial aspect of the situation, I must say it once more, I am sick of seeing a TES game being on the top list somewhere regarded as an RPG and the only thing you do is walk around in a pastoral setting, they even put books in the last release Skyrim, stories in there read like they are written by 12 year olds. You do not need D&D rights, you do not need brand name rights, you are creative, capable people and most importantly good storytellers, seriously Planescape and BG were like a book and I always wondered what would happen next, I am certain that an RPG by Obsidian will be in the least satisfactory if not awesome.

Hi, I was just about to suggest using Kickstarter and You guys have already thought about it great . I would make a BIG donation for: 1. A D&D 3.5e based epic adventure with great story telling & voice acting & role playing comparable to Baldur's Gate trilogy and support modules like NWN series, and of course much more offical modules for epic character levels, and PLEASE make the companions behave like adults and not like preteens as in NWN Ofiical Campaign. So story telling & rpg like Planescape and Baldur's Gate Trilogy, flexibility and moddability like NWN series. 2. A new Fallout game which is not based on Bethesda Software's fallout engine and game mechanics, something brand new and much more similar to what you guys have done before Bethesda ruined it. I would donate a good amount for: 1. A vampire RPG similar to Vampire the Masquerade series I would still make a donation for: 1. Any RPG you guys could come up with the promise of good storytelling

It's ironic that you used that as the example, since there are so little choices and consequences in BG-II. Outside of how you get the money and your actions in the underdark, the rest of the main plot is on rails. It is not ironic that i used that example, I said RPG does not only mean choices and consequences, BG-II did not have many choices yet it was great because it had a great story, and characters well had character. Did you play Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines? They gave you plenty of choices about the ending there but it was not what made it a good rpg, it was the dialogue and the characters, honestly I have not seem better character implementation in any other game. There is nothing generic and banal about Skyrim. You could claim that of Oblivion, but Skyrim is totally different. What exactly is different, you did not start the game in a prison cell but started the game as a prisoner carried on a horse carriage, I admit I did not finish Skyrim yet but come on the dialogues in the opening made me bleed from my ears. Ralof has the introductory role and just does not speak like he should, Ralof: he is ulfric stormcloak the true high king, (2 Seconds of silence) Thief: The leader of the rebellion but if they have caught him (1.5 seconds of silence) gods where are they taking us ... Thief: Mentions some gods and says divines please help me (in a super dull monotonic tone) God at this point the game became so immersive and natural that I felt I was this nameless guy in the carriage so immersive Ralof: Look at him General Tullius the military governor (no one would say this, he would say look at him, $#%%# tallius or something but ralof must introduce everything to us in the beginning) When they are executing prisoners: Some guy: Damn you imperials (2 seconds of silence) Some Guy: You can't do this (2 seconds of silence) Some women: Death to the stormcloaks oh my god how original, When the dragon comes over it gets funnier Soldier: What is that (2 seconds of silence) Female Commander: Sentries what do you see (2 seconds of silence) Soldier: It is in the clouds [by that time the dragon has landed on the tower] and no one is running around or getting prepared for a fight or anything (2 seconds of silence) Soldier: Dragon! (2 seconds of silence) Then Headsmen: Hunngh! That was the point I was rolling around in my chair, not everyone is grunting but just this guy If this is not banal what is it please tell me. The fact you're even bring this up tells my you haven't played Skyrim. I admit I only played through a couple of towns, but it the same thing after a while Who thinks that? If anything, Skyrim is closer to Morrowind than Oblivion. The perk system is far from 'frivolous' and means that Skyrim is the first Elder Scrolls game to have character building worth a damn. I said the perk system is good, and morrowind was a great rpg right. Yes... well... I do think that Obsidian are the best hope for the future of RPGs. The level of player agency in both Alpha Protocol and New Vegas was great. But lets not go crazy here... Alpha Protocol had a great level of C&C and offered a great variety of ways to use your skills in the field, but the game itself was beyond broken. Dungeon Siege 3 was a solid effort, but was somewhat on the bland side. And while New Vegas was (in my opinion) the best RPG of this generation, it still has a few glaring faults (like how black the supposedly morally-gray Legion was painted). Obsidian seem to get choices and consequences, and the importance of skill checks, so I'm keen to see where they head now. But that's no reason to bash Skyrim. If anything, after the swamp of derp that was Oblivion and Fallout 3, Bethsoft should be congratulated for suddenly remembering how to make games again. Fallout 3 might have been more carnival than RPG, but Bethsoft obviously re-learned the arts of location building, player rewards and character creation, and brought those back into the Elder Scrolls. I believe the only reason Obsidian is not coming up with something awesome is due to their financial limitations, Bethsoft as we all now is financially doing pretty good at the moment and the best they can do is to throw the same worthless thing at us, did anyone ever played New World Computing's Might and Magic games? They were way better than morrowind, oblivion skyrim if you set aside the graphics factor at least there were epic battles, interesting dungeons a good leveling system and interesting weapons in there And yes I will bash Skyrim, I do enjoy playing it but that does not make it a great game, it does not make it a decent game, it does not make it a decent rpg, it makes it a playable, enjoyable game where you fight and cast spells in an awesome environment (graphically).

I really am aware of this fact, this is what makes me sad, And I would buy 80,000 copies if I could, If I had that kind of money, I would directly commission work from Obsidian in the first place And I believe that RPG is not only about choices and consequences, it is about a solid story, solid characters, and how immersive it is . I remember playing through BG-II it was so immersive that it was like going through a "good" book, I always wondered what would happen next and never really wanted it to end. That is why I believe that (in the present day) a sandbox style game cannot be an RPG since almost everything is just generic and banal. A solid story line with solid characters surrounded with a sandbox style generic environment to add liveliness, minor quests, etc. would be optimal but I do not see how it could be done without balancing the story character (NPC + Enemies) levels with the player character's and I do not know who would go through that trouble. To elucidate upon this point I have to say that level scaling just does not work and takes the fun out of a game. This is a personal opinion but in an RPG I expect challenging battles as well as being able to exterminate an entire low level army by myself, both give you different pleasures and level scaling takes this away. There might be limited level scaling, say you can have 5 discreet bandit levels but still if you are a level 18-19 character even the highest level bandit should be a piece of cake for you, and you can have 3 distinct lich levels and even the 1st level lich should destroy your 9th level character easily, I hope I made it clear. The problem is that to accomplish all this needs dedication and a lot of time and work which translates to money, so if this cannot be done I would still prefer a more linear non-sandbox true RPG, if the latter is possible though, I would be glad to see that. Still the main element is good story telling and character development and I have not seen this done by Dragon Age, or Elder Scrolls and even NWN 1-2 (except Mask of the Betrayer), and even though I think Skyrim is better than Oblivion and Morrowind I do not see Bethesda coming up with a good RPG EVER!!! since I find their humor pretty stupid, their dialogue pretty dull and their story telling ordinary. Renaming Monday to Mondas and Tuesday to Tuvdas (or Montag, Tustag whatever) is not creativity, they still have Fighter, Mage, Thief guilds, enough already, make a guild of Radient Flame, guild of Shadow, Blue Mages Guild, Guild of the Rodent etc representing different factions with different agendas it is a simple RPG consept how can anyone expect an RPG from Bethesda come on. And all that iron, silver, dwarven, elven, ebony, daedric stuff, eveything is just super generic... Some elder scroll fans think Skyrim is a dumbed down version of Oblivion and hence Morrowind, what I think is that they did something right by getting rid of the dumber and frivolous stuff from the earlier games and inserted a Perk system instead (hmm how did they come up with Perks I wonder). Anyway, the point is Sandbox + RPG could work but should be done by people who have a good track record with RPGs (hence Obsidian) since the important is the RPG element not the sandbox, though I can imagine how it would be difficult to balance and perfect. And if this is not possible there are many RPG players out there expecting an RPG (at least it seems so) and it could be done by people who have a good track record with RPGs (hence Obsidian)

I will just leave this here for inspiration