SilentScope001

Sand, give me the URL of that. And NOT a URL of a forum post...that does not count. Anyone can post anything on a forum. No url? Then it's just a rumor. Just like ANY rumor concering K3.

I think it is implied that is what Revan is going to do, so, yeah, Revan can be seen as an idiot. Of course, it might be the only way to kill off the True Sith, so we can't blame Revan. Course not. Because how can you defend yourself other than the annihliaton of the attacker. It's murder, and murder is wrong. It's wrong to murder an innocent person, as you say, so it is wrong to murder a guilty person as well. They are people after all. You cannot do self-defense, becuase it means you have to harm someone else. Neither would I. Would you trust a Jedi Knight who disobeyed you and then later declared a Sith Empire? Heh, would you trust ANY Sith? Nope. Of course. I agree. But would Revan be "redeemed" on his own course had Bastila not captured Revan? Nope, Revan would take over the Republic and form that stupid SIth Empire. Only by getting rid of Revan's memories can Revan get the chance to turn away from his path and turn to the Light Side. He had the chance, and the player decides to take that chance...or to return to the past. It was a Strageic "Redempetion", and therefore, an act of war. Of course! But it was all for redemeption! "You don't understand. The goal of the Jedi is to REDEEM. We do not kill our prisonsers, we want to redeem them! Redemeption is key!" The Jedi has to redeem, and not to kill. That's part of their code. How they redeem, you can say that is wrong. But they follow the Code of Redemeption, taking it to extreme conclusions...It was an act of mercy, an crime, and an act of war...all at once. ("Mercy genocide"?) Kreia hates redemeption. It is a "betrayal of the self". Revan was forced to betray who he has, to destory his own empire. Kreia does not CARE if Revan was truly redeemed, Kreia hates it anyway, because Revan was forced to turn against who he really was. Neither would I. The Force has a will, and its will is divided into the Light Will and the Dark Will. The Will of the Force can very well turn Revan to the DS, and I would know it. I would want to prevent that Dark Side of the Will from reasserting itself. === Oh, and why they kept Revan alive? He is the only one, other than Malak, that knew WHERE the Star Maps are. The Jedi knew about the Star Maps, but did not know where exactly they are. They also knew Revan would recover his memories, so they wiped his memory and waited for it to heal. Revan would then know where the Star Maps are, but not know why he knows. So, Revan would lead the Jedi Masters to the Star Maps, and finally to the Star Forge. By the time Revan would recover all his memory, the Star Forge would be wiped out.

Don't worry I can counter it: "Palapatine can surely do that. Well, why he didn't? Because, Palpatine is actually smart! Killing 20 stormtroopers, Pah. BRAINWASHING 20 Stormtroopers, that is true power. " Meh, I'm no professional story writer damn it! <_< KotOR III is my thing, not writing stories in other timelines. I never said it was good anyway. As Tale said, they're going to have 'non-canon' endings in this game. That sounds good, but then we have the inherent possiblity that this game is really just going to be just one string of Infinite comic books. I am not sure how popular the Infinites are. They may need to declare one ending canon...but from what I read, they're going to declare ALL endings canon. I'm confused. Because then all the f*ckhead fanboys would say "If that guy in FU can kill Palpatine and Vader, then Revan would wipe the floor with them easily." Same goes for if you could kill Yoda, Luke or Obi-Wan. <_< I can see it now though, because of the ridiculously embroidered crap this guy can do in FU, some people are going to think that Yoda, Palpatine and co pale compared to him. <_< Well, then, blame LA for even doing such a thing, by making the main characters weak in an attempt to create tons of extra cash. Besides, I feel that they may have no choice...you have to care for your character to play a game, and because of that, you have to boost that character's ego. The reason I objected to your story is because you DIE at the end. Sounds pretty good as a story, but as a game, I want to be powerful, and I don't want to be murdered. Nobody does. I want to appear very, very powerful, and not...weak. You know what would have been better? If you would have played as a Sith not aligned with Palpatine or Vader. If you are a Dark Sided User, prehaps one of the Prophets of the Sith...or even a True Sith. Your main goal is to defend the "Jedi" against the "ursuper" Sith, Palpatine and Vader, laying the groundwork for an eventual True Sith takeover. You are working for a good cause...but with evil intentions.

Nah, any cut content will remain cut, because then console users will WHINE. But luckily, PC users can restore the cut content anyway, causing console users to whine and PC users to smirk at the console lovers' loss.

Force Enlightment gives you all buffs, making you a Jedi powerhouse. They only aid you in fighting via brute force... Just like Force Crush. Bah. Stupid Jedi and Sith, both using Brute Force. Anyway, you only talk to Sion to break his will subtly, so that it would be easier to use brute force to subdue him. Kreia won that battle against The Exile, because Kreia wanted to be killed anyway via brute force. And Nihilus, well, the Exile can stand there and watch Nihlius punch himself to death by that ForceDrain that makes him weak by draining a wound in the Force. --- In K3, we should have more options of battling OTHER than just using brute force. I know how fun it is to stab lightsabers into people, but somehow, can we find other ways of winning the game? Please?

Well, it was probraly should be considered a True Redemeption anyway. He had seen his past, and he now get to turn away from it. It's up to him to decide what to do after he knows his past, and figured out the truth. Jhunai and Jolee is what really swayed my LSM Revan not to support Bastila, so if they were gone, I would join with Bastila regardless of alignment. Guess their predictions of doom were correct... I actually wanted to vote "an act of war" and a "crime", because it was indeed a War Crime. They mindwiped him which was a crime, and they did it to win a war. But mostly, however, it was an act of war, and it can be justified as providing Revan with that True Redemeption anyway. Maybe. There was a topic on this issue in LucasArts' forum and it was really...interesting how it turned out.

Sure you can. Redefine peaceful solutions with solutions with slightly less violence. "I'm Bastila, I'm out to kill you!" *stab, stab, stab* "Sorry, sorry, Revan! I love you! Please forgive me! Please don't kill me!"

You crazy Light Siders... If you had High Awareness, you could figure out that the person was LYING about the story of his family, in order to get you to give him credits. He's a con arist through and through.

According to the director commentory by George Lucas himself on ROTS (its on DVD), Sidious lost on purpose to Mace Windu. So, I'll trust George Lucas. Besides, constrat Sidious begging Anakin to spare him with Sidious saying "ULTIMATE POWER!!!" seconds later. Kinda implies something is amiss here.

Your two republic credits are worth a lot in my eyes. Good job, you presented a concise view on what the Will of the Force may actually be. I do think The Force as something that really is sentient, but you make a good point that the Force may not actually be it, and since I believe the Force is senitent, but has no quotes or anything for that matter...oh well. Thanks for typing! EDIT: Just two quick things however: 1. Er...what if people disagree in the concept of mido-chlorians? 2. Do people in the past actually know about mido-chlorians? I doubt Kreia does...but maybe they do. Eh. Does it matter? Guess not, because Kreia would proberly suss out what to do anyway.

I never saw Atris actually joined the Sith. I believe her to be a Dark Jedi, allying with Kreia (for a time) so that she can destroy teh Sith and create a new Jedi Order (which would be aligned to the Dark Side). The Handmaidens appear to be very loyal of Atris in the Male Handmaiden scene, so I assume Atris sends them on a mission far away to help find and recruit "Jedi" while Atris fly to Malachor V and destroy the Sith Order.

You mean you got Nihlius to kill off Visas and Exile? My god, you must be quite lucky to have such a harder verison of Nihlius than My Nihlius!

But GEORGE LUCAS says so! It does not matter if it makes sense, that what your wookipedia article on "canon" states. Canon is whatever George Lucas says. So hear and obey! ...This is why I say you and I determine canon. Because sometimes, the EU makes stupid mistakes like declare "balance" to be "Kill off all Dark Side Users!11!!" without giving really good reasons. This is why it's up to you to create your own universe, and not up to George Lucas who'll canonically make Greedo shoot first. If George Lucas is right however, we got ourselves another reason why Kreia hates the Force. Kreia hates all the Sith that are killed by The Force who seek balance, so she is taking revenge for the Sith.

All Kreia hiding from the Jedi Masters and Disciple is the fact that she even exists. But, I think Kreia is just mad that Disciple left the Jedi Order. Though I don't know exactly why...Eh. Up to us to decide.

Because it does not apply here. This is another universe, and you cannot basically claim, "Oh I know that the Force has a Will/Does not have a Will!" when you haven't seen the Force in action. Star Wars is imagination and it orginates within the minds of Obisidan. So, ask the developers. And what if the devlopers say the Force has a will? Are you going to say, "Developers, I'm sorry, but you are WRONG!" Of course you can, because you have your own different view of Star Wars. One bond can force that person to follow you? Force that person to kill for you? If a person has that much power because of a Force Bond, then it poses implications over how powerful The Force is. That Force Bond makes you quite powerful, able to dominate others. It is an insight into the connection of the Force. PROVE IT. Yes, I will say it. You said a lot of Jedi Masters said that the Force has a will. Those Jedi Masters know more of the Force than you do. Why? They actually live in a world of floating lightsabers, they actually know about it. You must be quite arrogant to claim that you are smarter than a person that actually uses the Force! All you offer is your own opinons, while I talk about evidence in the game. 1. Kreia screaming of how evil the Force IS. ("I wield it, but it uses us all...") 2. The Jedi Council talking of how powerful the Force Bonding is with you. 3. Mira killing people...when she does not want to kill people. Contradict them if you wish, but you got no way of proving that you are right. Number 3 is the most interesting though, this is a person that hates killing and kills BECAUSE of the Force Bond that you share. It is the most compelling evidence we have here. Why not try killing an innocent person? Then your LS followers start screaming on why you did such a thing, very sorry of the crime that they have done, and angry on WHY they did it. This is by far how one can manlipuate others through the Force, and if you can do it...surely it shows the power of The Force. There is nothing, nothing at all, that says what you want to believe. And if it is indeed a self-balancing system, then isn't that the will of the Force? --- But it does not matter, not anymore. I do not wish to engage in a stupid war over canon, and what is right and what is wrong. Canon, to me, is what you believe to be true. If you disagree with me, fine. Then be it. I want to get myself out of this discussion. Thank you.

Get rid of your descirption of God however. This is a galaxy far far away. The rules of this world does not apply here. Now, surely, we can say, "Ooh, the Force has no will" and I would agree with you...expect for the Force Pushing, Mind Contorl, Storm, etc. So, there is something supernatural, of course, the Force. And, we know little of it. But what we do know in K2 make us imply the Force has a will. Other than Kreia's statements, the Jedi Council gives you all the reasons why The Exile is able to contorl others, via Force Bonds. For lack of a better word, I call it a Force God, but I can also term it having a Will of the Force. The Jedi Council spends years studying this stuff, so they should know. You also see Mira who kills after she joined her party...and how she does not like it. You can't say that has nothing to do with manlipuation, can you? This is why Kreia talks about echoes here. Now, there is a lot of evidence stating that The Exile has a lot of Force Bonds. There is no evidence the Force has a will other than Kreia's words (and she's crazy), altough we got proof The Exile does steal Force. The Force may not have a will, but The Exile can be considered a "Force God". In the end, it all depends on...us. We ARE the Will of the Force, able to manlipuate the whole galaxy based on what WE want to think, since we contorl how we see the galaxy, and therefore the role of the Force. In your verison of Star Wars, the Force is just clay...in my verison, the Force is somewhat powerful...and dangerous tool

To me, the entire Mandalorian Race wanted to destroy the Republic...because it's there and it's need to be destroyed. The Mandalorains are barbarains, like Huns who just go and ravage worlds for fun and "honor". They cause chaos everywhere, which is why I see it as Chaotic Evil, going against the "Law" of the Republic.

And here is the thing. We know aboustley nothing that about the Force's Will. We don't even know how POWERFUL the Force is. It flows within everyone, but does it contorl everything, or does it only infulence on the sidelines. After all, since there is a "big huge death echo" that can kill it, it shows The Force is not as omiprescent as others things. And maybe The Force also failed in all its possiblities...or, thanks to that "big huge death echo", the Force is so wounded that The Exile and Kreia are able to live. And if The Exile becomes the Force God, as I think, The Exile can basically manlipuate fate and events to do what he wants to do! But, maybe The Force wants The Exile to live, for some reason... === Still, that is the Will of the Force, and Kreia hates it. The Force becomes a scapegoat for all problems according to Kreia. After all, most wars in the galaxy are caused by Jedi and Sith, who are using the Force. Take out the Force, and no more war. Of course, that may be a logical fallacy. Look at the Rakatans. They were stripped of the Force as a race, and they still murdered each other. To me, Kreia did Kill the Force, just not in the whole galaxy. The Force was merely killed within the body of The Exile, and she is content of The Exile being freed of the Force. The Galaxy may not be able to freed, but at least one person is saved.

I always assume that Kreia "loved" her students, and blamed the Jedi Council for being blind that her students are great. The Jedi Council thought that the students (including Revan and Exile) were failures when they were really prodigal students. But, you could be right too. Kreia's resistance to the Force may also be spurred by her exile from both the Jedi and Sith Order...She was betrayed the Force, and she, in turn, betray The Force... A List of Alignment (According to me, and using Chaos=DS, Law=LS): -Kreia: Chaos Good -Mandalore: Chaos Evil -Atton: Chaos Netural -Mira: True Netural -Bao-Dur: Lawful Good -Hk47: Chaos Evil -G0T0: Lawful Evil To me, The Exile was mindcontorlling her party members. While their essence may remain, they do get twisted, and it does not matter what they actually believe, as long as they follow you and do your bidding. For example, Mira is angry that you turned her into a killer, and that she does not like her murdering spirit. Before she joined your party, she rarely kill anyone, but when she's in your party, she murders like she always been doing it. "And I don't like it." And if you have Disciple and is Dark Sided, you can get Disciple to become a Sith, which seems a bit interesting. -Sion and Nihlius: Chaos Evil === "In you, I see the potential to see The Force die. To turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me."-Kreia, at Traya Academy "You show the galaxy life without the Force. And instead of showing it truth, power, all you showed was how the galaxy may die."-Kreia, when you killed the Jedi Masters This is what you want?

Well, Kreia did state to The Exile that he knows all too well that 'true concidences' are very rare indeed, and during the travel to Telos, she believed the Force has brought them there "for a reason". So, Kreia does believe that the Force contorls their destinty. Assuming only due to argument using canon as a basepoint (and Canon I hate a lot)...but yeah, even the LS Exile would be able to manlipuate the Force, because he does not know that he is doing it (it's being done on a subconsisus level). Well, while it is good to call The Exile a "Mini-Nihlius", I think there is a difference between Nihlius and The Exile in that Nihlius wants to gobble up Force users, while The Exile merely wants to use Force Users, for either good or evil. He's not interested in putting Force Users on a platter. A war between The Exile and the Force would become a serious conflict, and may be more interesting than the war against the True Sith. Prehaps the Force is allying with the True Sith to stop The Exile from taking over "its" galaxy? Jediphile makes a theory in that Darth Nihlius is in fact a physical represenation of The Exile's Dark Side that The Exile rejected over at the Battle of Malachor V, the "wound in the Force" that The Exile created. It is a good theory, but Jediphile makes a point that I would seek to talk about here. But first... I doubt that in such a conflict, The Exile is going to win. Resistance against The Force is futile, and The Exile, sooner or later, is going to be killed off. That's a given. It's also a given that after K3, the True Sith would be destroyed by the armed might of Revan. But it would be quite, QUITE interesting to watch how Revan will destroy the True Sith...and how The Force will destroy The Exile. I see that you quote 1984 in your sig, and I like the book too. So, K3 will, most likely, focus, as a subplot, the Force's boot crushing The Exile's face...forever. We're going to see how Kreia's dream will be smashed, and how the galaxy will remain as it always had. It will be fun... And let us return to Jediphile's theory. Jediphile state that after The Exile will arrive to assist Revan in his war against the True Sith, Revan realize he needs a superweapon to destroy the True Sith. So he reveals to the Exile about Darth Nihlius being the Dark Side that Exile rejected all the way at Malachor V. Revan tells The Exile that he must embrace that Dark Side, and become Darth Nihlius, so that the True Sith be destroyed, but more importantly, so that the wound of the Force can be healed. And The Exile...accepts. In other words, the Force is able to destroy The Exile...by getting The Exile to give up I feel it would be defeating the point of having Kreia teach The Exile, and I would like The Exile to go out with a bang rather than to surrender like so...(or you know, win his war against the Force). But it seems to be a possible theory, and I post it here for completeness. Possible. Kreia however believed that the Jedi Council was, in a sense, cowards. They were afraid to battle the Dark Side, and instead fled from it, so that they can surivie. Kreia believed they made a mistake, but you know...maybe they didn't. To me, the Jedi made a wise desicion to avoid the Mandalorian Wars. From a certain point of view, the Jedi made a wise desicion with Darth Revan. And, the Jedi knew they could not kill Darth Nihlius. However, Kreia cares about consquences, and it is the consquences that deterimines if it is good or not. You give a poor person 5 credits, and that poor person get mugged for that 5 credits...therefore, YOU are responsible for causing that poor person to be mugged. The consquences, even if you are unable to predict it, you are still responsible for. (Kreia's ethical relativism was possibly movivatied to train The Exile to be a more fairer judge than The Force...) The Jedi Council may not have made mistakes, but there was bad consquences, and the Council did not take responsibility for the consquences, and because of this, they had to be destroyed. === There is yet another thing. What if Kreia wants such a war between The Exile and The Force to happen...as part of a plan to destroy The Force? Since The Exile and The Force may seek to destroy each other, it would be an internal civil war...and a civil war where both sides may die. It does seem a bit Kreia-ish to use The Exile for such a means... Also, in K3, it can easily be retconned that Kreia was wrong. Prehaps The Exile may find some way to make amends and peace with The Force, and both may be able to prosper?

Thread revivication... ...But how do you know if you are really working against the Force? Or if you are actually being contorlled by the Force in order to rebel against it, serving its will without knowing that you are fufilling its will? To me, the Will of the Force is a "Deus ex Machina", used to explain everything. Why in the world did you just encounter a little pervert Jedi in Dantoonie? The Force. Why in the world did you crash land into Dxun? The Force. Why in the world did you just "somehow" gained access to a list of where all the Jedi Masters are? The Force. What is interesting is that the developers turn this Deus ex Machina on its head, and have one of the characters seek to murder it. And here is the thing that is interesting. Kreia states that she cannot turn away from the will of the Force, that she relies on a thing that she depises. She even said that there will be others who will turn away from the Force, but they manitan unconsisus ties to the Force, secretly hearing the Force, and doing its will. But, only The Exile was able to turn away from the Force, because he was afraid of falling to the Dark Side on Malachor V. He created a wound in the Force by turning away, and he is nothing more than a beautiful empty spot in the Force. This is why Kreia in some ways worship you. You are the proof that her teachings are correct, and you are better, much better than Kreia. You shown the whole galaxy that you can live WITHOUT The Force. The Exile is the only "Disciple of Kreia" that ever lived in Star Wars, and Kreia believes him to be enough. The Exile steals Force from others, and transmits his echoes across the galaxy, making it harder for others to hear the Force, and hence, hear the Force's will. But is it really freeing the galaxy from the Force, or just placing a new ruler at the helm of the Force? You heard the Jedi Masters talk about how The Exile was able to manlipuate and mind-contorl others to do his bidding, via the Force Bonds. The Exile lies outside of the Force, but he gets to contorl the Force, and hence...could theoritcally, in essence, become the "will of The Force"? Does not matter, really. The Jedi Order is being reformed, thanks to the efforts of The Exile and Kreia. Hopefully, they will avoid the same mistakes that the previous Order did....but I doubt it.

If what you say is true that actions over-rule justifaction, then, yes, it's true, most likely. Since I view justifactions sometimes is just as important as the action itself, there is the remote possiblity of these "grey" beings existing (No reason really to thinking that justifcations are important...since you can lie to yourself about anything, see "Atris", but it's just me). LS and DS are quite easy to determine, just use Force Sight, or look at their Force Powers. Wheteter what they done was good or evil...that is up to interpertion. Most LSers are Good, most DSers are evil, but there are expections, due to the moral ambiguity exhibitied in the KOTOR series. ...I wonder, however, is Dark Side and Light Side really not about Good or Evil, but about Chaos versus Law. The Light Side is selfless allows for the impartial judge (The Force) to rule, so it can be seen as Law. Meanwhile, the Dark Side is selfish, wanting to rule the galaxy and rebelling against the impartial judge, so it can be seen as Chaos. If so, this can allow for Good DS and Evil LS, just like in D&D Alignment. --- I do actually think that the Jedi Council was right to not attack the Mandalorians, judging from the fact that the Mandalorians were used by the True Sith to bait the Jedi. But that is for yet another time, and I see I am in the minority...

Well, there was an argument on here started by one guy claiming that the Dark Side is not evil. This led to people aruging that Star Wars is a fiction, and is supposed to be black and white. One person, The Architect, believes that Star Wars is moving in a new direction, thanks to KOTOR and its doctrine of "greyness". In fact, The Architect hopes that there would be a "Good Dark Sider" and a "Evil Light Sider" in KOTOR3, just to shake things up. Here, we list all Good DS and Evil LS people that exist. I believe there are more Good DS people than there are Evil LS People, because "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", as people fall to the Dark Side in order to do good deeds. I doubt the road to Heaven is paved with bad intentions. Also note that Good and Evil are...relative, and is up to each person to indivudally define and deterimine. Meanwhile, the Light Side and Dark Side is quite easy to figure out...and is somewhat (but not always) clear what side of the Force this person embraces...It is up to you to make a point if someone is "good" or "evil", Light Side or Dark Side, and that point CAN be challenged. Since I am familar with only the KOTOR series, here are a list of Good DS and Evil LS that I seen from there...my List may be incorrect, and I hope others may add in some new stuff. Good DS: -Darth Revan. He fell to the Dark Side and basked in its power so that he can create his own Empire...to protect the galaxy from a greater threat. -Kreia. This Dark Sider, regardless of what you believe of her goal to blow up the Force, wanted to train The Exile so that she can grow strong enough to destroy Darth Nihlius and Darth Sion and therby save the galaxy. She also help to form a new Jedi Order that would help defend the Republic. Evil LS: -The Jedi Council. This has been debated over at the LA Forums, with them "reprogramming" Darth Revan's memory, prehaps even memwiping him. They were alleged to have turned Darth Revan into a slave, or at least a holocron from which Bastila would gain knowledge from. I believe this to be evil, and because of this, I call this a Evil LS act (since the Jedi Council were being LS at the time). -Atris. She hates the Sith and wants to destroy all of them. So, she decides on turning the Jedi Enclave on Kataar and the Jedi Exile as nothing more than glorified bait for the Sith...with some success. That act of betrayal can easily be seen as evil, yet is she LS at the time? I think so, as Kreia states that Atris was already destroyed, but what she done was strip away the illusion. The "illusion", I believe, was Atris 'Light Side' alignment, which she held and believed until Kreia corrupted her to be Dark Sided. Since she basically caused the Jedi Enclave to die and released word of the Jedi Exile's existance before the begining of the game, I can assume she was LS at the time and therefore, her actions was Evil LS. Anyone else want to put in Good DS and Evil LS characters? Please do so.