Spider
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I've mentioned previously (but not in the post roshan quoted) that it's very likely that NWN2 is easy for me due to my fairly extensive experiences with D&D crpgs. Had NWN2 been the first D&D crpg I played, I would probably have found it more difficult than I did, but as it is I find it to be very easy. It's hard to be a developer and try and accommodate all levels of experience with these types of games.
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spider seems a bit confused. poison not incubate. poison effects in nwn2 can (and does) do con damage and strength damage and other stuff, and they does so immediate.
*shrug*
HA! Good Fun!
I could be a bit confused yeah. I seemed to recall poison having one immediate effect and then replicating that effect a little bit later at the same time the poison icon goes away. But I'm not at all sure of this, I was just including the possibility that poison was worse than just the original effect so I wasn't trivializing it. If it's only the one time effect, then it's even less threatening.
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resurrection is part of most fantasy worlds
Really? Man, do we have a different perspective of reality. Resurrection most certainly isn't part of most fantasy worlds in my view. Especially not in the sense that it's being used in D&D. Possibly as some sort of miraculous event like Jesus, but even then it's hardly present in a majority of fantasy worlds.
Or did you mean that it's present in most fantasy rpgs? If we look at the pen and paper variety, again it's not exactly common. Of all fantasy RPGs I've played, only one has resurrection as casual as it is in D&D. And that's, well D&D. Granted, there are a lot of systems out there I haven't tried so it's possible that I've just missed them. If so, please enlighten me with examples.
If we're restricting ourselves to crpgs exclusively then you may have a point. I'm not sure though. Most fantasy crpgs I've played have been set in the D&D world, but the ones that haven't had resurrection that I can recall. Nor have they been party based so the point is somewhat moot (the ones I can remember off the back of my hand are Oblivion, Gothic 3 and Lionheart). I guess if we include action crpgs like Diablo and Titan Quest I'll have to give up though, but then we're definitely straying.
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poison can do more than constitution damage, and cure disease during battle is not always so easy to pull off... nwn2 disease incubation periods seems to take rounds rather than hours or days. more than once we seen disease incubate while battle were still continuing. poison, disease and level drain is all a real pain for Gromnir, though level drain is worstest.
Like I said, I have no respect for poison or disease and only a little for level drain. If poison does do more than con damage, then that is after an incubation period as well which typically incurs after a fight is over. And yes, disease is counted in rounds so that can actually come into play, but you also get a fortitude save so it may also do nothing. Most of the time, it has a marginal effect on any given fight at best (and no, I don't let my sick characters die just so they'll be rid of it).
elanee, the only priest available til more than mid-way through game, is a druid, not a cleric. as such she cannot cast full restoration. she gots access to lesser restoration and neutralize poison and cure disease, but those are all 3rd level spells... same level as call lightning. do you honestly load elanee up with cure disease, lesser restoration, and neutralize poison if you not know you is gonna need those spells?Lesser Restoration, the only spell needed to be cast in combat when under the effect of both disease and poison (will remove the bad effects and most likely the fight will be over before they appear again, if they do) is level 2, not three. Remove disease can be applied after a fight so it's only a rest away. Typically my level 3 list for Elanee is one or two Call Lightnings, a bunch of cure serious wounds and maybe something else. But it depends on whether or not I have Qara in the party. If Qara is present, Elanee doesn't need to be a nuker and becomes a crappy healer instead. Although she can be made into a decent tank.
in any event, auto-ressurect seriously nerfs game. whatever rationalizations roshan or spider wants to useI've already conceded this point. The fights are easier when you don't need to worry about every single party member. And yes, a lot of our different perspectives comes from you wanting to protect everyone and me following the rules of the game. I still prefer a game that allows resurrection to have auto-res, but I do recognize that fights should be made tougher if that is the case. NWN2 only goes half way it seems, fights on the level of BG2 but with auto-res. While it should be something more like fights on the level of BG2 Tactics and auto-res.
I still would prefer to have no resurrection at all though.
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last thing. this kinda stuff is maybe the difference 'tween what Gromnir considers difficult and roshan's/spider's notions. if we lost party member(s) during a fight, then it werren't easy. auto-resurect made painless, but fight were not easy from our pov. sure, we had on highest difficulty setting, but based on our reading there not be much difference'tween hardcore and highest, not really.
This is pretty much spot on I think. Even though I didn't go to such extremes as Roshan did, I'd never let a charmed character mow down the rest of the party.
As for poisons and such. Disease doesn't to anything at once, it takes a little while for it to kick in. by that time any give battle is typically over. Poison does have an immediate effect, but all it does is lower your hitpoints some, so it's practically just damage. Level drain is more annoying, but it depends a bit on how far you're drained. One or two levels don't make that much difference in a single fight.
Also I always keep at least one restoration spell memorized (especially since there is one at level 2 where there aren't that many useful spells, at least not once Bull's strength becomes obsolete).
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For me, whether a character was killed with or without the ability to be resurrected, it didnt make a difference since I never bothered with the spell. Any game with resurrection is going to be broken as it will become too easy. NWN2 doesnt even give you the option of not using resurrection - it actually forces resurrection on you!
So in a roundabout way we both actually agree that the best solution is to have no res at all?
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tough to read your post... but we notice where you claim we take some quote of yours out of context... 'course you editied in the "gameplay" bit after Gromnir were already in the process of responding to your post.
Sorry about that. I didn't realize that part of it was from my edit. So I apologize for accusing you of quoting out of context. My bad. Just ignore that part.
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will note quickly that we don't see how you can divorce critical path and story aspects as a whole with a game like bg2.I'm good at compartmentalizing. Seriously though, I can't divorce them if I am judging the game as a whole, but I'm not. I'm looking at what the mandatory parts of the game present and then there's the optional stuff. However, it is a terribly unfair comparison because the two games are quite different in their design. Which is why I am careful to point out that I think BG2 is the better game.
And even if I were to include the optional bitsas story, I still think IWD wins out (although maybe with a slightly immer margin). Since we're only talking about quality of story here, the sheer mass of sidequests in BG2 doesn't come into play. And while some sidestories are brilliant, some are awful. In the end, I think it balances out. Again, the comparison is hardly fair to either game though.
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I also remember fighting succubi in another area, I believe before fighting the githyanki leader, and that area was also easy, just had to chop away. Now some of my party members may have become dire charmed but as soon as the succubi were killed, the dire charm wore off. Thus if anyone was dire charmed you just had to kill off the succubi quickly so dire charm was never an issue. Stoneskin was never an issue with my main characters huge damage output.
I do't recall charm wearing f when the caster is dead. But I could be wrong on this. I agree that stoneskin was only a nuisance and nothing else though.
There is Disintegrate in the game as well, although I'm not sure if any enemy ever use it. But I absolutely hate spells that kill without resurrection in the IE games so I'm fine with that one being nerfed. Worst of all was Imprisonment. I really hated that spell. I can live with no auto-resurrect (like I said it's only a preference), but if so let the characters that go down actually be resurrectable. Or remove resurrection completely from the game.
(strange as it may sound, that last one is actually my favorite option, since I always felt resurrection as it works in D&D is a bit retarded)
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please point out the low level spell that makes you simultaneous immune to disease, poison and level drain? in any event, the great thing 'bout free crafting is that you can switch those items in your equipment slots to suit needs. fight undead? put amulet of health in slot. fight dragons? put in natural armour amulet. am not sure why you thinks that you needs keep in one amulet for always and ever. crafting gives us more opportiunities to tailor equipment.
As if you can't re-memorize spells at a whim. A little more effort than changing equipment, but not by much. No, there isn't one spell available that does the stuff that amulet does, but on the other hand I have absolutely no respect for either of the conditions. A simple cure whatever or restoration will get rid of them before they manage to do any harm (it's not like they have much effect on the actual combat you sustain them in).
Besides, the amulet of health may be craftable at level 5, but you don't get any canary diamonds until you get to neverwinter which is a bit later iirc.
and there were more than just 2 tough fights in game...'less you used crafting. the entire end dungeon area were a pain in our arse, because of stoopid inventory issues and inability to rest. 'course if we had all the best possible equip it might have been easy. and succubi were not that easy the first time we encounterd. gotta reload and memorize 'nuff protection from evil spells to protect whole party form dire charm. got pretty easy afterwards, but the stoneskin scenario pretty much applies to a number of other potential enemies as well.Actually, I didn't think there were more than two tough fights. Maybe we can add the trio of reavers to that, but they were only tough if you didn't cast the words on them immediately. I found the rest of the end dungeon (and the final fight especially) to be fairly easy. Tedious, but easy. And this was with a character that only crafted two weapons for herself, one that was replaced with the shard sword at that time.
On my second playthrough I only had to reload due to combat once (and that was me not paying attention, not the fight actually being tough). Again without much going on in the way of crafting. I did do a full complement for my main character in the end, but only once I reached level 18 which doesn't leave much to do in the game.
The succubi were only a threat if they managed to charm anyone and since they firedthose off fairly early, stoneskin didn't matter other than making them take longer to kill. They fired off any charms they had before I would have killed them anyway (and their charms almost always failed. Maybe three to five successes in two games).
and you far overstate the level 9 scenario. your party gets wiped out and chances are you never make it back to a temple... and even if you do get there you has had to spend loads of gold and time and resources to gets your party cleric raised so that he/she can then raise rest of party.In what D&D crpg will I have a hard time getting back to a temple if I win a fight, even with only one character? To me it's more a nuisance than anything else. Make the fights tougher, I'd actually welcome that, but I don't think party member death is the bes way to do it.
in any event, you is kinda kooky. crafting ain't busted 'cause game is already too easy insofar as combats is concerned, but you is also in favor of auto ressurect, which cheapens pains of combat. but by same token you don't play the games for story anand character interaction.Yes, take quotes out of context. I said I didn't play BG1 and 2 anymore for their stories and character interaction but because I enjoy the gameplay. First playthrough was different, and I did play NWN2 the first two times for those reasons (among others).
I don't think crafting is broken, because I don't see it making the game that much easier. Because I don't see how it could be much easier than it is. Had the game been more difficult than it is and crafting would have brought it to the level it is now you would have a point.
And I think autoresurrect is ok because it removes the annoyance of having to reload in spite of beating the fight in the first place. Forcing me to reload or run to a temple may add some difficulty, but it more adds tedium. Repeating for the sake of repeating. But I'll tell you what, just leave it in that party members have the same XP as the main character and I wouldn't care much. Truth be told, I'm not exactly invested in autores either. It's a preference, but nothing more. Again, make the fights tougher through other means, I don't mind reloading if I actually get beaten. But if I manage to squeeze out a kill vs a tough opponent I don't want to feel the need to reload all the same and do the fight again.
am agreeing that iwd had better story than bg1. is arguable 'bout bg2, but we thinks you overstate for effect. iwd had advantage of being one story rather than many and so it maybe seemed a little more cohesive. bg2 story were not simply critial path. there were all those sidequests and joinable npcs as well.With story I mean critical path. Sidequests are ministories in themselves and I can understand your reasoning. And I do think IWD has a better critical path story than BG2 does. I think BG2 is a better game due to all the sidequests and stuff, however.
so, sarevok were better because he were cliche and 1 dimensional? we thinks you again try too hard to make a point. irenicus needed more background development, but he were more than an evil laugh echoing from a suit of armour. sarevok/bg1 were actually kinda campy, but maybe you dig camp.Keep in mind I never said I felt Sarevok was a good character. but he filled his role in the plot (as it was), did what he was supposed to do and didn't annoy me. Irenicus annoyed me. It really is as simple as that. I see people claiming that Irenicus is such a good villain and all (not you though) and I just don't get it. I think most everything about him was poorly made and never bought into his motivations. Me and jonny-boy simply didn't click. I even liked Bodhi better, and I wasn't particularly found of her either.
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you is joking, right?
I'm not saying you can't do better weapons than what are available in the game. Obviously you can. I still don't think the crafting is overpowered because the game is easy enough to begin with. The effects of the amulet you talk about can el be replicated by spells and thus having that amulet can actually make you less powerful since you're wasting an equipment slot (you could have amulet of natural armor instead for example, which can be replicated with barkskin).
There are only two fights in the game that even resemble a challenge (the dragons), and neither is helped all that much by having uber equipment. Sure, armor of fire resistance is nice versus the red dragon, but not as nice as energy immunity and so on.
Crafting makes your party seem more powerful, but from my experience it far from breaks the game.
The succubi you reference is actually a good example. Why on earth would I care if I can kill them slightly faster with my adamantine weapons, when there is absolutely no chance that I'm going to lose against them anyway? It's not like they're actually dangerous.
btw, holy attribute requires cure critical wounds, which elanee gets pretty early.... and gith chick can cast.Holy also requires the caster to be good, which rules out Zhjaeve iirc.
"Computer games and PnP are not the same."exactly. THIS computer game took a serious strategic and tactical consideration present in pnp and OTHER d&d crpgs and complete nerfed it.
I completely disagree. I don't think party members going down is much of a tactical consideration in a setting where you can just tow them to a temple and have them resurrected. The reason why I typically find that party member death in other D&D games = reload is because they fall behind on XP (something I hate) and because it's usually less time consuming to just re-do the fight than actually walking across maps to a temple and back.
Besides, it's kind of a moot point once level nine is reached when raise dead becomes available (except it doesn't in NWN2 unless the main character is a cleric, but that's not the point here). Just a rest later and everyone is good as new.
So basically they just took away the annoyances from party members going down. Now, in a setting where resurrect isn't quite so readily available, I find it more annoying. I would have disliked it more in the Kotors than in NWN2 if it wasn't for the KotORs being extremely streamlined to begin with.
oh, and not only were sarevok's plan complete rubish if you thinks 'bout it for even a moment (start with creating an iron shortage by tainting ore IN mines... another mine with a james bond self-destruct mechanism, etc) but he were so damned typical and uninspired that even the biowarians admit that he were pretty much a hole-punch baddie. he did have a good evil laugh though... so if you is impressed by such.irenicus at least had a story that should have been developed more, but compared to sarevok? sarevok were no different than any other bg1 npc: cliche and undeveloped. but sarevok shortcomings were just one item 'mongst the multitude. gonna honestly compare the deluge of bg1 fed-ex quest to stuff avialable in bg2? joinable npc interaction were comprable? character generation choices and in-game quest choices were in favor o' bg1?
True Fans. what are you gonna do?
HA! Good Fun!
I have never called myself a true fan of anything, and definitely not BG. I haven't even disputed that BG2 does a lot of things better than BG does. I only said that I think that the parts of BG2 are better than it's hole while it's the other way around with BG1.
Sarveok may have been clich
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"superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game"
Nah. BG2 is far better in every manage way except having alrge praticall;y empty places. Better defined npcs, superior writing, a more interetsing villian, more challenging and tatical battles, more ways to complete quests, etc., etc.
I thought that Irenicus was a much worse villain than Sarevok. To me he was always the weakest point of the game. He is as flat as yesterday's coke left sitting out all night. I never really cared about him. First playthrough I cared about finding Imoen and was obviously pissed at him for taking her, but never really cared about the character itself.
But that's not the point really. I'm not denying that a lot of the things in BG2 are better. However, I do find that the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach that that game was used during it's design makes the individual parts be better than the whole. I think BG1 is tighter and has a more natural progression to it. And I think the atmosphere in that game is better. Like I said, I think they're both equally good (if we overlook the engine part) but for different reasons. All I can say is that playing through them now, BG1 is more consistent (except for the Firewine Bridge area, that one truly sucks) while BG2 has higher highs, but also deeper lows.
and as any serious pnp d&d player, at mid to higher levels, the equipment Makes the character. is one of the flaws of d&d.Yeah, but if we're only looking at the hard stats they really don't make that much difference. The best you can get in the way of weapons is a Cold Iron +5 weapon with two types of elemental damage tacked on (or one plus holy, although then you need to be a cleric yourself I think, unless Elanee has Bless? Zhjaeve isn't good so she can't do it iirc). At level 20 that's not really very impressing, compared to what you can already find in the game. Sure it makes you a little better, but +3 or +5 to hit hardly matters when you never miss anyway.
Like I said, your character gets more powerful, but it doesn't really make the game any easier (especially not the +3 stuff you can do at level 12 since there are plenty of weapons of that quality in the game that are as good or better than any +3 weapons you can make yourself).
oh, and surviving a fight and win a fight is not the same thing, not in a party based game. in pnp if you survive at cost of have all your party mates wiped out and most potions/scrolls used, then you lost the battle for all intents and purposes. if cost of victory is too high, then you lost.Computer games and PnP are not the same. In a lot of stuff that don't matter in crpgs are relevant and vice versa. So what works in one doesn't always translate well. I think that autores is fine simply because it decreases the amount of reloading I am forced to do and allows me to get on with the game. Granted I would have preferred somewhat tougher fights as a result.
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(example: first time we fights a nwn2 dragon we got slaughtered... badly. second time we won, but only 1 party member survived, which in previous games woulda' pretty much demanded a reload, 'less we were lucky 'nuff to have the cleric be the survivor.)
Actually, that is one of the best arguments for the NWN2 system I've heard. The hole concept of reloading after winning a fight seems a bit bizarre if you ask me.
As for crafting being broken, I think you're vastly exaggerating the importance of it all. While the weapons you make are better than most you find, the impact on game difficulty is marginal at best. First playthrough I only crafted weapons for my main character and nothing else and it wasn't significantly harder than the second time where I crafted more. Holy is hardly broken compared to elemental damage and personally I thought adamantine was worse for crafting purposes than cold iron or alchemical silver. An extra enchantment is worth more than the adamantine bits.
In my opinion the crafting system is far from broken. Does it make your character more powerful? Yeah, a little (but seriously, another +2 to hit and maybe +1d6 damage for a level 20 character is almost insignificant). Does it make the game easier? Hardly.
Oh, and another thing. Your BG to BG2 analogy is somewhat off. There are people who enjoy BG1 over BG2 not because the see it through rose colored glasses but because they prefer the vastness and illusion of freedom over the cram every area fulll aproach of BG2. The engine used in BG2 is vastly superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game. I play both roughly once per year using the BG2 engine (tutu) and for me both are roughly the same in quality, but for different reasons.
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I'm aware of the "around" part, but he also says they're trapped by the debris. This would seem to contradict the later statement that they're nowhere to be found, though as I posted there are possible ways they could have escaped. If so this wasn't elaborated on.
Actually, the key to it all in my mind is that the fortress is nowhere to be found either. Ruins of a fortress is still something to be found, but apparently not even that is around. Or maybe they just mean it's hidden too deep in the swamp.
That is odd indeed. For some reason I don't see her ever leaving me so I'd never notice that bit. Maybe at some point they intended her to leave like Bishop can do, which would prevent you killing her.She leaves you after meeting the Circle of the Mere, if you don't have enough influence. That's when my character killed her, not in the end fight.
I didn't either, but it might be because she was in my savegame from 1.02. Did you try making a new game and meeting her to see if the tail was there? It's certainly visible in the toolset. I made a new game last night but was too tired to leave Daeghun's house so that's where I stopped.I can't recall if my third game was started pre or post 1.03. I'm not going to start another one just to see if she's got a tail, that's for sure. It's not like the lack thereof really bothered me in the first place.
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Most people disagree with you. Lots of people had problems with other stuff including the camera view. In fact, so much so that Obsidian has chnaged it already. Go figure. *shrug*
What exactly did they change? Adding stuff is not changing if the previous functionality is intact. For me it works just like it's done since I installed the game, but I'm only using free camera.
They did change the options screen though.
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In the end they say that the temple comes crashing down around the party, not on them. They also say that the knight-captain and the fortress are nowhere to be found.
Qara stays with you if Sand turns (and vice versa). So it's on or the other. The construct is turned by Bishop if your influence with Grobnar is low (ie, he falls for the stuff Bishop tells him in the cutscene and gives the command word to Bishop).
I have another issue with the ending, by the way. If Elanee leaves your party after meeting with the circle, there is mention of a lone elven women that walks around in the mere. However I killed Elanee and still got that frame. Felt a bit odd to me.
(on another note, I didn't get a tail for Neeshka with 1.03beta)
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For women it'd also be nice to have various breast sizes.
I think male models should have variable crotch sizes.
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Or have the available quickslots be the ones of the first character (in the case of NWN2 the main character), so that if a slot is activated when all characters are selected only the main character does the deed.
The only commands that are given to the entire group would then be attack and possibly movement.
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You can spar with Nevalle for a combat bonus? Where? In the keep?
Right outside the tower. Did it last night.
This is, of course, provided that you built the NWN9 tower, he wouldn't spar with me when I allowed a mage to settle there instead.
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Just out of the blue (well, it's about the end fight), I think it was kinda cool that you get Bishop back as an ally if you side with the KoS.
Edit: I don't think Khelgar can join KoS. Or Elanee. Or Grobnar, although if you fail your influence check with Grobnar (and Bishop presumably) Construct goes over.
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A gripe. What the hell are goblins, not goblin shamans, doing casting spells? They don't have the intelligence to cast spells much less the ability to read to learn the spells.
The enemy AI needs to be improved. I battled some orcs and some of them just stood there and let me hit them a few times, killing them and they did nothing. :crazy:
Are you perhaps anywhere near the glowstone? if so, then there is a perfectly good reason for goblin's casting spells and it's explained in the game.
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I've run into a quickslot bug, seemingly relating to the newly implemented dual-wield slotting.
I'm a warlock, so I quickslot my eldritch blasts. The problem is, each slot will hold two different blasts, like I'm dual-wielding them
the spells cancel each other out. I can correct the slots, but they seem to rearrange themselves from time to time, and it's a little peeving.Has anybody run into this problem with vanilla spellcasters? It might just be a Warlock thing.
I'm currently playing a warlock and I'm not having this problem at all. Quickslotted Blasts and everything. Or, I only have one blast slotted since it's the only one I use. Eldritch Chain/Beshadowed Blast. But that one works fine for me.
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Thanks for the voice of reason spider, nice to see some thought going into a reply.
The camara is atrocious, like lotsa reviews state. AI of groupmembers is not very good either(but I understand they are trying to remedy that). The UI has been questioned as well. Game reviewers will explain it better than me, hence the links.
One example, why does a party member run over traps to attack a distant enemy? Should they not be more willing to avoid activating traps?
While I agree that the AI is awful, that is hardly anything that Oblivion does better. Whenever I had a follower in Oblivion I would grind my teeth. Until I realized mos tof them can be told to stay behind while I clear out the cave. And NWN1 is just as bad, or worse, when ti comes to AI. So hardly a point in any games favor. If anything, I'd give the point to NWN2 since there I can turn off the AI and control my party myself (which is what I basically always do).
I think the camera is wonderful. I play in free camera mode and have no problems with it at all. Although I am used to that type of camera since playing Silent Storm, so it's possible it's worse than I give it credit for. I also think the UI is very good (now that weapon combinations can be added to the quickbar).
As for the trap thing, yeah that is a bit stupid, but on the other hand given how harmless most traps are, you're probably going to take more damage (from archers) by NOT charging over it. But it should probably have been a toggle.
But I'd still like to hear why you think Oblivion is a better game for people with no experience in the genre, something the reviewers won't answer.
(it's quite possible that you're right since Oblivion is a much less complex game, although NWN1 was fairly complex as well and that managed to become fairly popular)
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Books are not games.
No, but non-linearity is still non-linearity. And a plot is still a plot. A plot where the end comes first, the beginning somewhere in the middle and the middle is all over the place may sound fun to some, but certainly not to me. I actually like having the beginning at the start of the game.
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I'm just wondering exactly what you're hoping to accomplish with your posts. This is not a flame, but a genuine question. You say NWN2 is a worse game for the uninitiated than Oblivion, but you don't say why. You say NWN is popular and that NWN2 sucks in comparison (at least that's what I'm getting between the lines) but again you don't say why. You come with no suggestions on how to improve the game to make it better, although admittedly depending on the suggestions those can be kinda futile. There is a certain limit to how much can be fixed in patches after all.
But making suggestions and being constructive helps a lot to avoid getting bashed by other forum goers.
As for NWN2s growing impopularity, I don't know about that. Most people I talk to who play the game like it. There is truth that there are a lot of people bashing it as well, but that happens to any game. I've seen so much Oblivion bashing that you wouldn't believe it. People are more vocal when they're upset, this is a known fact.
I personally like the game and think it is much better than Oblivion. This is not to say Oblivion was a bad game, far from it. I liked Oblivion, but I'm liking NWN2 a lot more. But if you prefer Oblivion, then that is an option that is clearly open to you (again, not a flame).
the spells cancel each other out. I can correct the slots, but they seem to rearrange themselves from time to time, and it's a little peeving.
NWN2: Discussion
in Computer and Console
Posted
Resurrection (or raise dead) is available to any cleric of level 9 and above, is it not? To me, that's casual. Allowing the players to have access to such a spell at all even is casual in my eyes.