Lancer

I brought that situation specifically for GoA. He had said that it didn't bother him that Bioware was making console RPGS hence which is why I had brought that hypothetical situation.. Although, I do realize that it makes "business-sense" for companies like Bioware and Obsidian to also design console RPGS, I do admit that this trend does make me a bit paranoid. It makes it worse when I see some of our favorite RPG developers biting the dust. Maybe this paranoia is justified.. Maybe it is not. Regardless, it makes me wonder what is *really* going on. But only time will tell for sure.

Translation: So you don't care in the foreseeable future that the only RPGs around are Final Fantasy-style RPGS. Obviously, PC RPGS with strong narrative and character interaction don't fall into that characterization. Ok, I'm not getting things here. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't feel that a PC RPG with a strong narrative and character interaction would fall into "Final Fantasy-style RPGs" just like I don't consider KOTOR to be a Final Fantasy-style RPG. Or Morrowind. Or Neverwinter Nights. Nor do I expect Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights 2, or anything else to be a part of that category. I wouldn't like that. Fortunately, I have yet to see any indication of that actually happening. PC RPGs developing party interactions does not equal an assimilation of the RPG world into Final Fantasy games. Daggerfall.. was *bad* in this regard. Was their 2nd and 3rd game just as bad? Furthermore, did their first three games have large development costs? There's sooooooooo much behind the scenes that we don't possibly know. And I don't see Bioware going out of business any time soon. Nor do I follow the plethora of smaller console RPG developers to know whether or not they are all successful or not. EDIT: Fixed my horrible UBB quoting skills. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I had edited that post ..It is different now

I don't understand why so many people are misinterpreting that statement as if it was something I believe in... All I meant it to be was a hypothetical scenario. Realize that I never said that this WILL happen, but merely that if it WERE to happen it would suck. There is a difference. Right.. And notice how I stated the fact without having to mock you or put down your argument or anything. I used to get confrontational with you in the past.. But I have since realized that it ain't worth it. Threatened? That is a strong word. I never threatened you and it is funny you would say I did. You didn't just "disagree" with my post you mocked me and replied with some sort of attitude. I think you can make your points come across without having to resort to smarta$$-type remarks.

Translation: So you don't care in the foreseeable future that the only RPGs around are Final Fantasy-style RPGS. Obviously, PC RPGS with strong narrative and character interaction don't fall into that characterization. I believe PC RPGS have evolved into a better beast by doing the above.. I don't think this alone implies that in a generation or so PC RPGs will become Final Fantasy clones. What does seem like a potential threat to me is the fact that PC RPGs developers are also developing console RPGS. Time will tell if the threat is real. Daggerfall.. was *bad* in this regard. Oh.. and I don't see Square going out of business anytime soon. There may be mergers but bankruptcys don't seem to run rampant like in the PC RPG industry.

Bethesda makes very buggy games as well yet they are alive and running. No, I suspect that there were sales-related reasons to Troika's demise as well. Just how well did Arcanum, ToEE, and Vampire do sales-wise? But why is this constant re-shufflng of companies so common in the PC RPG industry? I don't mind that a PC RPG developer makes console games as long as it makes PC ones as well. I just hope that it is not indicative of a slow gradual assimilation into the console industry. If the developer continues putting out a steady influx of games for both then I don't mind. IMHO, we don't really know which of the two scenarios is correct.. Only time will tell. I did state numerous times that the strong narrative and party interaction that modern PC RPGS have are a welcome addition to the genre. I never argued the contrary. I agreed that such aspects have strengthened PC RPGs and they should continue making PC RPGs with the said elements. I never did say that these things were a portent of doom.

Which makes me ask...what's the point of this again? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually my point to Volourn here comes basically down to that developers change their game-developing style upon changing platforms in order to reflect the desires of the target market. And this has been almost exclusively the PC RPG company making games for the console rather than the other way around. This may or may not signify a push for more console RPGs at the expense of PC ones.

That makes me feel a little better... in a way (if this is indeed true). But this begs the question.. Why are unfortunate events like this so commonplace in the PC RPG industry? Why does the PC RPG market seem so unstable as compared to the console side of things?

I am not blaming things on Troika. But PC RPG companies come and go like nobody's business. I don't see Square-Enix going out of business because of "management issues" anytime soon. What are the specifics though on the Troika break-up? Do you have a link? The real reasons might very well still be sales-related..

To debate whether the PC RPG market is dying/dead? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think it is dying per se, but I prefer to remain cautious. PC RPG companies that used to be about making nothing but PC games making console games just makes me a tad nervous and skeptical about where the market is headed. Troika and Interplay/Black Isle being gone I also don't consider a good sign regardless of how you look at it.

Ooops.. Hack and slash is not my specialty. Interplay, Bioware whatever. But, doesn't change my point about how developers need to adapt as they move from one platform to another (in this case, from PC to console). BIS went from producing a profound game like Planescape: Torment on the PC to a hack n slash game like BG:DA2 on the console. Apparently, they felt the change was necessary to reflect the different market that console gamers are. I doubt that BIS would ever make a "Torment" or a "Fallout2" on the console and the above is the reason why. Really? According to this Bioware didn't branch out into the console arena until 2000 with MDK2. This is a full 5 years after Bioware's inception and by that same year it had already made BGI, BGII, ToB, TotSC, and Shattered Steel which are *all* PC titles. Up until 2000, Bioware hadn't made any console titles. Since then they have developed the following console titles: MDK series, KOTOR, and JE. Undoubtedly more console projects are along the way. EDIT: And if you can't discuss things without trolling or insulting then I will ignore your future posts. Just to let you know in advance.

What a surprise. I also disagree with--- wait.. You don't have an analysis and conclusion. My analysis is independent of equipment concerns. It is based more on my assessment of overall trends in the gaming market. Whether they are right or wrong. And I wasn't advocating the end of PC RPGs, in that post you quoted (or in any) , I was just merely stating there that designing story-driven PC RPGS is a good idea.. And one that was inspired by JRPGS. Ok.. I am still waiting for your better one. And how many ingenious RPGs of the calibur of Torment and Fallout do you know of that have been sprung by independent users? And this is evidence for what exactly?

I played Lands of Lore many, many years ago... Hardly remember it now. Although, I never claimed that it was inspired by JRPGS. Septerra Core was a JRPG made for the PC as opposed to being a PC-style RPG with JRPG elements(i.e. Torment). Septerra Core was actually really similar to the Genesis game: Phantasy Star IV.

BGDA means Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance which was published by BIOWARE for the PS2. I wasn't at all talking about Dragon Age. I am sorry that you missed that. *shrugs*

I do too *sigh* I *love* that game

I am actually kinda looking forward to the Fall.. let's see.

Torment had lots of humor too, actually.. i.e. Morte, Annah, Nordom the modron, the Brothel of Sating Intellectual Lusts :D ..etc

This sounds pretty interesting. I could get coaxed into playing...

Oh man.. that sux

Thank you Ender for bringing up another good point which I neglected to mention earlier about Torment being inspired by JRPGs. In addition to my earlier claim that Fallout is an example where you can have more advanced party interaction without the more "emotional" JRPG-style interaction elements... Look at the complexity of Fallout's story compared to Torment's... Now compare Torment's story complexity to that of any good JRPG. Now tell me which game is closer to the more story-driven style of JRPGS? Now there are more western RPGs that have been trending towards being more story-driven ever since.. Look at the Baldur's Gates, Arcanum, KOTOR, Deus Ex, System Shock, Vampire..etc.. JRPG's have always been story-driven whereas western RPGS (with the Ultimas as notable exceptions) had always been less story-driven in the past placing the emphasis more on the gameworld and on customizability.

But it doesn't matter what you or I think a good RPG should have.. The fact still stands that JRPGS beat western RPGs to the punch (and by many years) in regards to narrative. The question to ask is why it took so long for western RPGs to adapt and what were the pressures behind the change? I would say that both reasons were a factor. Why wasn't there party interaction from the get-go then? -- Whereas in JRPGS this was done almost from day one. And I did mention that inspiration came from various sources with JRPGS being just one of them. Regardless of what you think about the other points, still you recognize at least that "mini-games" in western RPGS were inspired by JRPGs. And that Torment's spell-effects are likewise also JRPG-inspired. So it is a fact then that western RPGS *are* being inspired by JRPGS though the disagreement lies at to what degree.

But it did. It was already occuring in Ultima VI and Ultima VII both parts. Then there was that lapse of time (for whatever inexplicable reason) until Torment.

JRPGS are known for their emphasis on good NPC dialogue filled with the full gamut of emotions. Torment was more similar in that regard unlike say, Fallout for instance.

The Fallout series is actually a great example of where you can have more detailed party interaction without obvious JRPG elements (in response to some of Yts' ideas). Now contrast that with Torment, KOTOR, and even BGII. After Serpent Isle the first RPG to introduce JRPG-style party interaction elements was Torment.

Actually not too many memorable ones aside from Daggerfall, Fallout, Eye of the Beholder III and then a whole bunch of hack and slash games. This period actually corresponds to the "dark ages" of western RPGs.

1997