Lancer

I wouldn't really consider a "shadowrunner" to be a covert op. I was thinking more of traditional military/intelligence agency covert op.. i.e. More like a futuristic James Bond over say a cybered streetpunk.

Yeah... This is true.. It might be that the basic profession of the covert op hasn't really changed much throughout time. The only real variable of concern is the technology available to the op (which depends on the time period). In that case going through GURPS Ultra-Tech I/II, Robots, and Bio-tech and picking out the appropriate covert op weapons for a futuristic game might be the best solution to this. Except.. it would be nice to get a sourcebook that gives comprehensive advice on how to run a covert ops campaign (not just a technology listing like GURPS Covert Ops was).

Most tabletop RPGs that feature covert operatives tend to be in "modern" settings. However, I have been searching for a guidebook which explains how to run covert ops in a futuristic setting.... The only PnP game that has "futuristic" covert ops that I know of is SLA Industries (A good CRPG analogue would be "Deus Ex" except I am looking for something even further into the future). But I am really looking for more of a general sourcebook along the lines of GURPS Covert Ops except concentrating on futuristic covert ops. Does such a guidebook exist?

So none of you have any reason that can discount the possibility.. Besides... "Nah. It just won't.. OKAYS?." I didn't think any of you did. And all of your responses are in regard to things looking up "NOW." Yes, they are making DA and NWN2 and things look "bright" right *now*.. And everybody seems to think that big developers designing both console and computer games to be such a good thing. But the question is: Is it really a good thing? Not now, but in the *long run?* I admit to not having a definite answer either to the question and fishboot hit the nail on the head that the lanscape is just too fluid to make predictions either way.. But am I the only one that sees this new trend of developers like Bioware and Obsidian trying to appeal to both console and computer RPG gamers to be.. well.. kinda odd?

And knowing that indie- devs are such a trivial factor in the computer RPG industry.. again.. How does this prevent the possibility that console RPGs could help bring the downfall of computer RPGs?

Yeah. It does sound a little strange to me too.

So not saying it *will* 100% happen.. But knowing that it is indeed a trivial factor, why are some of you using the "indie developer" argument as if a viable solution to a hypothetical computer RPG apocalypse?

So by fishboot's and ender's definitions.. The only real difference between a "big" developer like Bioware and a true independent developer is that an indie-developer self-publishes? And it is able to do that because it spends no money on advertising or retail box?

But it seems to me like indie-developers are a relatively trivial factor. I have played tons and tons of RPGs and haven't heard of anyone else other than Spiderweb. What other companies are out there? EDIT: And more importantly, how easy it is to become an independent developer?

Two definitions: Indie 1: Not a subsidiary of a publically traded corporation or private media group (or a publically traded corporation unto itself). By that definition Valve, Obsidian, Bioware etc. are indies, and obviously those companies can feasibly make any game they like once they've established themselves. Auteurism is not out of the question here, but these companies are typically compromised (I don't mean that word pejoratively) by dealing with publishers and a culture of desire to generate prosperity in the long term. Indie 2: Like Indie 1, except that the developer also self-publishes (if the term "publish" is appropriate, since this can also be done via shareware or adware). This is where your Spiderweb Softwares of the world come in, your Modder companies, and where a lot of the gaming industry used to be in the good ol' days. Also, sneaky ol' Valve wants to be here too, via Steam. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Don't you need a lot of money to "self-publish" though? Is there a different venue that small developers like Spiderweb Software go through?

Yes.. I am aware of the Geneforge series.. But Spiderweb Software is the only indie-developer I have ever heard of. Where are all the other ones? I just didn't think that independent developers were that much of a factor in the grand scheme of things...

Ok... I admit that I could be wrong in this matter but I guess I am simply not aware of all the possibilities... Just one thing.. Can anybody explain to me this "indie developer" concept and just how common does this occur? How feasible is this and would some of them have the resources to make truly good RPGs like the Torments and Fallouts and what not?

Exactly.. we have bigger dev studios like Bioware that have enough money to make real western RPGs that are able to keep up with the demand for improved graphics (at the present) but keep in mind that they are also making console RPGs now. Now they have to contend with a new fanbase with an established preference for JRPG-style gaming. If studios like Bioware then feel pressure to gradually conform to the JRPG console standard, that means the end of the console as a viable alternative for western RPG gaming. This possibility worries me. This only leaves the very small dev studios left. And if the small dev studios don't have enough in their pockets to keep up with the rising graphical standards, then the western RPG market could very well hit a dark age.

People need to start reading my entire posts lest they run into making false inferences or mis-interpreting my arguments like metadigital did. I say we can't really tell until we let things run its course. Something very different and unprecedented is happening in the industry and IMHO it is too early to tell what is really happening. It is, although, an exciting time to be in right now.

That is good news although getting console gamers to like PC-style RPGS is a much tougher challenge.

So no slowdown? No reduction in gameworld size? No simplified dialogue?

Where did you come to such a conclusion? Are you apopheniac as well? :D

@ metadigital. *sigh* Why even bother? Seeing as that you *completely* missed my point and totally made up whatever random inferences from my posts as you felt like, I don't think I am the one with the apopheniac tendencies.

SNES Ultima VII is actually the proto-typical example of how memory storage place was/is a concern for consoles. :D In the SNES version, much of the gameworld was taken out, dialogue was shortened tremendously and to make a long story short was pretty much one of the worst RPG ports in the history of mankind. SNES Ultima VII was a *very* simplified version of the PC classic and it did it no justice. Since you bring up the SNES... Genesis also had memory storage issues with the Phantasy Star series. Unable to make a full 3D version of Phantasy Star II, they had to resort to a top-down perspective due to memory issues. If playing simplified re-makes don't bother you then be my guest.. But I prefer to play the real thing. Yes.. And what is the reason that they choose not to? Aside from hardware considerations, console gamers look for completely different things in an RPG. Fallout is loved by PC RPG enthusiasts but most console gamers in general wouldn't be appealed by such a title. It is no wonder why most console RPGS play the JRPG variety whereas most PC RPGers play the "western" RPG variety. This is a pretty conspicuous divider between the two fanbases that would first have to be taken down before the console can become a serious platform for playing western-style RPGs. BTW, releasing a Fallout game today would have to conform to the correspondingly higher graphical standards. I hope you are not implying to release the old Fallout on a modern console today.. It would simply not be received well by console gamers. Even if memory space was not an issue that wasn't the only problem. You conveniently ignored the other far bigger problem I had mentioned which was getting the console fanbase to like traditional PC RPGs. No point in having all that technology if you can't get the fanbase to like the games you wish to make for them. I have never played the console version of Morrowind. How faithful is it to the PC version? It is not like an SNES Ultima VII I hope?

I think you misunderstood my second point. I am aware of the fact that production costs are much higher than they have been in the past and I am not accusing developers of "greed." It is natural that developers would want to make more money now than before to compensate for the increasing standards. My argument is that the last few years represent a new trend where western RPG developers are also starting to design console RPGS. My question is the following: What does this mean? A) Does this mark the start of a gradual conquest of console RPGS over western ones? Or B) Is this just a natural response by developers to compensate for the aforementioned rising standards in graphics and development costs today? Ok... let's pretend for a moment that point "B" is what is really happening...even if this is so, wouldn't the other RPG companies soon follow suit? Also, if developers happen to find console RPG making to be far more profitable why would they even continue making western RPGs in the future? This is especially dangerous knowing that the established console market does not tend to play western-style RPGs anyways which would make it quite a formidable task to make western RPG gaming a viable option on the console. It seems to me the developers would have to conform more and more to the JRPG standard as time goes on creating new games that will never again be like the Torments, Fallouts, Ultimas..etc. Yes, there are smaller companies out there also making western RPGs. But if the market shrinks so much in the future that it just isn't profitable for would-be PC RPG developers then they would have to resort to other ways to making a living.... Like consoles. Now, I have yet to hear a single argument from anybody explaining why this latest trend with Bioware and Obsidian and others also making console RPGS does not signify the beginning of a disturbing trend: The gradual expansion of the console market and the slow atrophy of the western RPG market.

This would be a dream come true.. Usually it is the other way around though.. In my experience it seems that PC RPG players are more likely to play console RPGs than console RPG gamers are to play PC RPGs. If games like KOTOR could manage to convert a few of those anime freaks then it would certainly serve its purpose.

Hard drive space is an issue for consoles though. And secondly, the console market is a completely different beast altogether. I wouldn't expect a game like Fallout or Planescape Torment to ever come out on a console. As long as there is a fanbase.

Yeah.. But what is your take on the current situation regarding many RPG developers that are starting to make console RPGs as well? I guess the future of computer RPGs lies with the smaller development houses eh?

I don't think we are in a dark age now. I do agree with Ender in that throughout the entire history of western RPGs, hack and slash games were always the norm whereas "true" RPGs like Fallout, Torment, Arcanum, Ultima VII, BG series and the like had always been in the minority. That said it doesn't imply that the western RPG market couldn't plunge into some sort of dark age. What bothers me is that in the past we didn't used to see computer RPG developers designing RPGs for both PC and the consoles... Nowadays, we are beginning to see this more and more. This is a new occurrence as far as I know... And it does concern me that it is uncertain what this change in business strategy means in the long run... At worse, it means that the console industry is slowly (gradually) swallowing up the PC RPG market. At best, it means that PC RPG developers' pockets are getting fuller while they are satisfying both the PC and console fanbases. To be truthful.. There really hasn't been another RPG quite like Torment

Exactly.. And I am sure people have heard reasons for Troika's demise but there is so much stuff behind the scenes that I am not sure if we really do know all the details surrounding it.