Takkik
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Posts posted by Takkik
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Fluxwing you miss some important points : not all high level abilities are about dmg (or weapon dmg). Some do AOE, or apply some specific effects. Exemple toxic strike apply a dot (and I don't know if dot are still bugged but this one do more dmg longer it stay). But I find the base skill overpriced for what it do.
Same with afflictions, some high level abilities apply weaker afflictions but do it in AOE (like smoke cloud). Or the other skill than shadowing beyond, it allow you to paralyse with your next attack, the last upgrade still have the same effect but add a t1 dex affliction to enemies around you when you teleport.
More accuracy mean more chance to critic and get PEN bonus (overpenetration).
I don't say everything is ok. Chill fog should not blind (wizard have a specific spell that do it). Rogue positionning & sap feel weird, not PL 6-7 abilities and as 1 guile abilities I find escape & crippling strike far better. I find that some base skills without upgrade are overpriced ( a problem when you MC and the upgrades are PL 8-9).
Design wise I think highter level abilities are meant to be situationnals. You can see people using aoe 3-4 cost abilities 3-4 times in a row and kill lot of enemies at once, but you need to setup it. The problem for some class is more the lack of option at low cost. Most class have 1-2 skills at 1 cost so it can feel spamming. Rogue are not the worst with escape and crippling strike, and trickster are even better with more 1 guile options (positionning & sap feel too situationnal and you unlock them too late I think).
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Attributes are general, might/dex/perception/int works with weapons, wizard, druid spells alike.
Worse in BG1/2 when you had to have almost all stats Str/Dex/Con + Int/Wis/Cha. And none of them boosted both roles of a F/M or F/T/M or even a C/M.
And buffs and debuffs are still crossing over,
Wizard self buffs, Mirror Image, still helps a Priest/Druid/Cipher/Chanter survive better.
Chanter and priest have good AoE buffs, Devotion of the Faithful -> +4 Might, +10 Accuracy to sub-sequent spells cast
Cipher/Wizard debuffs help the other type of spells to land.
Ex.
Mental Binding -> Fire Ball (or any other Reflex spell)
Secret Horros -> Killing Bolt (or any other Will/Fortitude)
and countless other combos.
Sorcerer has Mirror Image + Spirit Shift, definitely no push-over in melee.
And some power-levels are just super-weak, Wizard power level 4 is a quite notable one where you wish you could use the resources on power level 3 spells instead.
Spend that time casting good spells from the other class instead of fiddling going *plink*, *wiff*, *wiff* with a ranged weapong.
Ex. on the same power-level: Druid's Moonwell, Priest's Devotion of the Faithful or Shining Beacon Ciper's/Chanter's anything really.
... I want to try Oracle, Spiritualist, Mystic, Hierophant, Sorcerer (there should be better name), Theurge...but on this link every marital class multiclass has it's own page: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98193-the-obsidian-boards-build-list-last-modified-20-july-2018/
Why doesn't this make you inspired to fill in the gap.
Play it, make it work, then tell us how by posting your experiences. We would love to hear about it.
The next player who logs in to these forums feels the same way as you do now, "I want to try a Caster + Caster Multiclass, who can give me advice?"
And we simply reply, go read Melusina's guides, she always know how to make them work.
So, go fill those gaps, we know you can do it!!!
The problem, is that for each caster + caster combinaison you're talking about, there is a martial + caster MC that do better. Sorcerer? A trickster + shifter will just be better and you can cast the illusions spell while in beast form, and you have all rogues passives + rogues skills that combo with your forms.
Same with ciphers, the passives help to boost a martial class not another caster (+1pen with weapons, + x% weapon dmg). You can have some synergy with a shifter/wizard buff/weapons, but less effective than with another martial class with more passives and active weapon attacks.
The lack of passives is a problem. I'm not even sure cipher spells work well with other caster passives (and vis versa) because of the keywords (Cipher spells only have mind, deception, echo, shred keywords, lack the element keywords, so no synergie ?).
Another problem with caster in general, martial classes have cool effect with weapons & items that modify their active abilities : use a weapon with an AOE and all your martial abilities do now AOE dmg. Caster really lack some metamagic modifiers. Same martial classes have lot of passives that proc stuff on critic, kill, hit etc... The magic system feel really rigid in comparaison.
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That make no sense, if you switch to per encounter economy, make everything based on per encounter. per Rest system (and rest) feel out of place (outside stuff like figurines perhaps).
Fight > Rest.
Trigger a trap > Rest
Trigger a trap 5 sec later > Rest
Why not remove rest system and make food a consumable that stay until you're downed?
Restrain rest to the ship & inn? So you'll have to be more cautious with injuries?
On paper the game switched to a per encounter system, but you still have/can rest after each fight/problem to restor some of your resources. I'm curious to play pathfinder and it's old school rest management (perhaps I'll not like it, dunno), but actual system feel like they chill out to abandon old system.
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I once played Ascendant/Wizard and it was a good mix. Blights and later spirit Lance built focus very fast for whatever I wanted to use from cipher class
But cipher isn't a 'pure' caster like wizard/druid/priest. It don't use the same resource system and have different passives than other casters. But i'm not sure playing with cipher offensive spells and other caster spells work that great (casting time compete each other). Spells don't generate focus. So it's really using spells to buff you and help build focus (or use soul annihilation with conjured weapons).
Wizard work with everything because it have lot of selfbuffs that are instant or fast cast + utility spells (like eora pull). The fast selfbuffs can complement any class even other caster that don't have them.
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The problem with caster/ caster multis is that casters dont have many good passives.
So all you are achieving is substituting one spell for another
Yeah, and most caster passives are the same (outside of very specific stuff like shapeshifting passives). So you end up with plenty of spells to use but they all compete with your time economy. Martial classes buffs are all instants and you don't have that many active attacks, so you can just take the best one and focus on passives.
Each caster class need some uniques passives that allow customization outside of the spell list. Having lot of spells isn't really great since you only have limited casting per level. Passives are a big part of martial builds/MC.
Another thing that make caster/martial better than caster/caster, is the synergy you can have with martial abilities/attacks. You can use them when you can't cast spells (citzal martial power of shifter subclass), they work with summoned weapons (all casters have some summoned weapons), they don't have cast time, they allow you to use your weapon special enchantment (you don't have caster weapons that affect/work with spells).
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Well the good news is that powerlevel have an effect for martial classes!
First tier of abilities where never meant to become outdated. The culprit I thing it's more the cost of hight level abilities. The actual balance mean you will mostly use your 1 cost ability most of the time (spam feeling) because it's the most cost effective, and 2-3-4 cost abilities are situationals. The problem is martial classes have only 1 1 cost ability, so you don't really have choice (there is exceptions, like rogue escape, or monk wound abilities that use a different resource).
First time I saw the beta and that upgraded abilities lead to new abilities I wasn't fan of it, but now I begin to think it was perhaps a more interesting solution? if you can get both upgrade of your 1 cost attack and that unlock 2 new abilities. That offer more choice to the player and the dev can put a different cost on a no upgraded ability (that, in my opinion, often feel too much).
or you could allow to unlock all upgrades and get a new ability each time (the two upgrades of crippling strike give you 2 abilities at the same cost). That open more low cost choices for the player.
Another problem it's how most weapons & items still have per rest abilities. What the point to switch to per encounter economy? They should offer some alternative to your low cost abilities to break the spam feeling.
Overall, casters have most of their options at low level casting and different level don't compete, when martial only have 1-2 low cost abilities and all their abilities compete each other for the resources. It's more a problem of lack of options for low cost abilities.
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imagine taking a spell when leveling give it a bonus to PL (like just +1) and every grimoire got some passive bonus that focus on some spells. If I want be a poison wizard, I can select poison spells (they got a bonus) and get snakeskin grimoire (exemple +xPL to poison spells, or something more creative like a dot when using poison spell), I have a limited selection of spell (overlapping) but at sametime i'm specialised in a type of magic and be more effective with all poison spells.
You have the choice between be specialised or have acces to more spells but less powerfull.
I think the fact they dropped the trinket feature for all class gimped the grimoires. All classes should have access to trinkets that offer more options/specializations for all classes. Priest could get a focus that boost some spells or unlock a new one, druid could unlock new animal forms, have choice between boosting spellcasting or shapeshifting etc... Trinket in general could work like a specialization.
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I think the grimoire/wizard system miss something. That really encourage you to switch grimoire and take less spells while leveling, but at same time the big majority of the skill tree are about the spells that you can find in the grimoires. I find that the class don't fully embrass the grimoire system. If ignoring spells and using grimoire swap is an option, you need more way to spend your abilities points.
- They could implement a bonus when you select a spell (+1PL?)
- Add more passives so you have more interesting things to spend points (specialy when multiclassing). More specialisation bonus like the + 1pen for element or rapid casting. Perhaps passives like + xPL for conjure weapons (or other spells). I don't understand that they can't find some interesting caster passives that modify how you play them, like for the martial classes.
- Change the spell list / add some spells to the tree that you can't find in spell books.
- Give bonus to each spell books : snakeskin grimoire : +xPL poison spells. Flame & spark : +xPL for fire & electricity spells etc...
Spell selection and grimoires are overlaping system instead of being a complementary thing in my opinion. I don't get the feeling the wizard ability tree was built around the grimoire system, more that the grimoires are afterthough.
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Shattered Pillar was my favorite on paper.
Then I looked at monk abilities, realized 10 wounds on you >>> 5 wounds on you, and never even glanced in shattered pillar's general direction again. You are better of being a Nalpazca, if you want a way of creating wounds ouf ot thin air. Pure monk > Pillar monk.
Eh, it's good if you focus on wound spending over wound accumulation. Different types of builds do well by it.
The fact its autoattacks only really limits what a shattered pillar can do. Maybe if they allowed them to gain wounds from all damage dealt, but at different rates. Something like 20 auto attack damage, 40 martial ability damage, and 60 spell damage wouldn't be too OP. As-is a nalzpaca just does the whole wounds without getting hit better... plus drugs are cheap and plentiful
I really hate the shattered pillar change, that really kill multiclassing synergy. It's like if cipher could only generate focus from auto attacks.
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Priest also have no vanilla class - how should a subclass improve something that's not there? What do you mean with "get nothing" in this case. I have the impression you didn't think your arguments though...
So first of all i played shattered every run because it fixes the one weakness monk has over everything else, get wounds when not being focused. And its outstanding at doing exactly that. So you accusing me of "not playing just considering" is you being unfair and just making assumptions instead of arguing the issue.
You have 2 abilities that allow you to gain wounds without being focused. You can use friendly fire at your advantage. Or one of the few abilities that self dmg. It's like the streetfighter rogue subclass that push you to be flanked. BAse monk push you to contact and getting hit.
It's not a question of weakness but more of playstyle.
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I would love a new Neverwinter Nights game/toolset with d&d5. But using other IP is always tricky.
Obsidian have 2 major flaws in my opinion :
- Pillars lore is still new, and heavly influenced by D&D. So it's new without be that new. The flaw is that Obsidian don't build enought their world/IP. Tyranny & Pillars should share the same world. If they build the lore trhough differents games that could settle it in the mind of the player, give it more weight like the good old forgotten realms (or even planescape since lot of content of FR games rely on planes things).
Expanding existing lore/world through different games that explore different gameplay/facet of it would be great.
- Game ruleset : Each game they reinvent the wheel. Each game is the same loop/process of balancing etc... until the game feel right. And then they launch a new game with different rules that is completly unbalanced... They should take the time to create a RPG system, modulable enough to be adapted to different univers if they want and only tough it a little when needed. That would save TONE of time to both dev & players.
On a side note, I would love if one day cRPG stop separating combat encounter from social&exploration. I would love to be able to charm someone, or use my rogue invisibility/escape to infiltrate (Dishonored style). DOS2, in my memory is stuck in a middle ground, because you can use your movement ability for exploration but active abilities are still 100% tailored for combat in mind.
An unified gameplay will be a great advancement for RPG. Active abilities as in DOS or PoE is more attractive in a game, using an ability to charm/persuade feel more active than a passive check of a skill value. And you can apply combat rules, like defense, resistance etc...
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1) Monk - OP, unlimited mortification for Stunning Surge and multiple hit on crit passives
2) Chanters - OK, Same as in PoE I, Summoning rules
3) Rogue - OK, Streetfighter's OP (Remove +100% Crit DM modifier, make recovery buff add only +25% RS), change Criplling stike to primary attack
4) Wizard - OK, Make Chill fog apply L1 affliction instead of L3
5) Ciphers - OK, Beguiler under-powered
6) Paladin - OK
7) Figther - OK, Make charge do Primary attack
8 ) Ranger - OK, Miss some attractive skills
9) Druid - Bad, with current scrolls consumables and shiftier scaling
9) Barb - Bad, miss DM and ACC buffs
10) Priest - Bad, add real buff's instead of inspirations
Removing full attack on crippling strike feel weird. If you have a dual weilding class it's the rogue. Backstab and assassination favour 2handed which feel weird already. I think the +25%dmg on a 1guile ability is out of place since the attack do affliction(s), and that make the 2-3 guiles attack less attractive.
The issue I have with the rogue is that it's too much based on weapon dmg. Miss some flat dmg abilities that favour dagger/stilletto like the d&d sneak attack. A passive that only work with small weapon and add a flat dmg/dot not based on weapon dmg? An active poison ability that add x corrode/raw dmg for x second when using dagger& stilletto?
Soul annihilation is closer to what you should expect from a sneak attack/backstab because not linked to weapon dmg and favour high accurate weapons.
Monk : I agree, you should not have any ability that can refund it's cost. That just encourage you to spam and only use this one.
Cipher : beguiler is a gimmick. A beguiler should have extra dmg, acc, pen (choose one or more) when using spell with sneak. And/or extra power level for the deception spells. Right now it's near a full contraint that force you to play like a rogue for be at 100% efficacity.
Ranger : problem of balance between pet & ranged specialist. Miss a beastmaster subclass that focus on the pet but reduce ranger own dps, with more skills for the pet. Or need a modal/stance that allow you to switch between strong pet or strong ranger.
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For summoned weapons and pet I assume it's because of multiclassing. Summoned weapons work well with martial classes but if you reduce their actual usefullness it could become trash? Same with animal companion, people complain about it, if it become less effective in MC it would become even more trash? Just some thoughs. OR it need a buff before it work with PL?
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I say none. System of both games, and even tyranny are far from perfect. The rest/camping system don't work. Just look at dev stream in the nemok dungeon : active traps > rest. Active new traps just after > rest again. There is issues how 'dungeons'/encounters are build.
I think there is some interesting concept with cipher, chanter & monk classes. Around generating resources to spend on your abilities to prevent just spamming all your high level abilities. The only thing I hate about cipher (&chanter) it's the lack of 'base' abilities. As a single class cipher you can only auto attack to generate focus. Miss a system of abilities to generate resources and other to spend it. Like Diablo 3.
I find auto attack just too passive and boring. Each class could get a bunch of 'free' abilities, like the cantrip in d&d5.
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I believe all classes are strong enough.
Priests have good damaging spells at high lvls, and great support abilities all over. You can buff everyone, supress any debuffs, withdraw/ress your buddies, and spells like symbol of eothas and storm of holy fire are broken because AI won't react to them. What else do you need?
Rangers have issues with pets and subclass balance. Gunhawk > Ghost Heart >>>>>>>>>>>> sharpshooter, stalker and pure class. Also, bears and birdie > every other pet.
I think Rogues are the only "too strong "class after chanter nerfs. They only need their awesome upgraded starting abilities, then get passives because everything else is obsolete.
The problem with the rogues is that outside of starting abilities, the abilities feel meh & similars. Smoke cloud, positioning & sap don't feel like powerfull abilities for their PL. Persistant distraction make lot of affliction abilities less usefull. And if you're single, you unlock an even more OP skill that outshines others. And escape, I never heard about the other upgrade next to shadow beyond. 3 guile for a single target paralyse?
And if you multiclass you can have better options for all this stuff.
Right now I find the trickster is the one subclass that offer a wide variety of abilities for each PL.
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Yeah i see your point for Powerstrike and i agree on the 3 to 4 point cost when it becomes Inspired Strike could make it more interesting. Even tho, i think Powerstrike AND Inspired Strike are really not worth the cost, and should be BOTH at 3, even tho you get small bonuses, because the AOE damages aren't really great, and if the character is a single class fighter who has multiple mobs to hit you'll need to save those points, because after 3 powerstrike, you'll be out of points and a lot of mobs would still be standing, and you'll be much more effective and ressource efficient spamming clear out for this.
Also, putting Inspired Strike at 4 and Powerstrike at 3 would convince a lot of people to not pick the Inspired strike upgrade for a buff that only lasts 10 seconds. Making single class even less attractive than it actually is.
I don't play fighter and powerstrike feel weird, because it does a bit of everything without be focused. I would like to heard more feedback from people using it.
One thing you forget : it's a party based game, your fighter isn't alone fighting. And weapon abilities change depending of the weapon. I wonder how this ability work with an AOE weapon, +100%dmg on all target and multiple proc of the raw dmg? Compared to clear out.
+1 cost for a t3 (ok, the weakest one) and a t2 buff? not necessary of bad tradeoff.
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-Single classes are pointless for many classes, they can hold their own, but are not rewarding at all and are outshined by every single char that is multiclassed. Mainly because of bad/underwhelming HL abilities and powerlevel ineffectiveness. Doesn't mean they have to be stronger, multiclass SHOULD be stronger, or more "multitask", but single classes should be more specialised and damn effective at it, and not just a straight downgrade to every multiclass.
I think we all agree on that.
But one think you miss is that a fighter isn't specialised in DPS. A rogue or barbarian will always do better. You want more specialized single classes, but more specialized don't mean more DPS. HL single fighter have more abilities to keep people alive or manage enemies or buff himself. These skills need perhaps some balance pass to be more attractive, but perhaps the problem is that the fighter role don't suit you and you better just multiclass it.
I know it's not all about single target dps, but it's a skill that exists for damages, and a 4 cost damage skill should be a burst skill (not a dps one since it drains a third of your ressources) and if you want to aoe, you'll better of using clear out than this. Powerstrike is a bad skill that you'll never use because it will just drain all of your stamina for slightly above average damages.
Nope, I don't say the skill is balanced, but a 4 cost skill isn't about dmg. If you look at a full upgraded powerstrike, it do lot of dmg on a single target (+100%dmg, 4pen), debuff it, do dmg to people in AOE (you never counted it in your calculation) and debuf them. On top of that you gain 2 buff for 10 sec. Plenty of things for 4pts.
Now the problem of skill cost, I think, is that at the begining (beta) each upgrade unlocked a new skill with often a different cost. Now you pay for the upgrade even if you don't get it. It depend of skills. That lead to 2 big problems :
- Upgrade are not an option anymore, there is no reason to not take them (less choice) and until you unlock the upgrade the skill can feel overpriced.
- Abilities at PL 6-7 that have an upgrade at PL 8-9 become less interesting for multiclassing, reducing the choice when MC. That participate in the feeling that a MC can just unlock all the good stuff. Even for a single class that can make the mid range tier feel less interesting.
A basic power strike worth 3 discipline I think, and 4 for the upgraded one. It's the same with the rogue and whithering strike : 3 guile just for 1 debuff? I think a 2 cost and then 3 cost when upgraded feel better.
When a base ability feel a bit overpriced without the upgrade, they should separate the upgrade as a new ability.
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I'm not a fighter player, but yeah, not all classes are about single target dps, and as far I understand fighter isn't one, so high level abilities aren't about single target dps. And you know? it's fine, because if you like base fighter and want a more dps one you can multiclass it. And I assume you're talking about power strike (4 disciplines), this ability do aoe dmg and affliction, so it's unfair to compare it with a single target dps ability.
Now i'm repeating myself, but I find some of the classes need a rework (more choice, redesign of abilities etc...) of abilities PL 6-9. The advantage of a single class character isn't only abilities 8-9, but he can take more abilities of pl 7 too and some classes have no real valid/interesting choices at this PL (A MC can only have 2/1 abilities at PL7 that why you need more than 2 interesting active/passives in each classe to force choices).
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Voelfen, have you compared with a single class paladin? What you describe point to a class/ability balance, not a MC problem. We all agree that lot of abilities need to be rebalanced. But this problem have nothing to do with power level. It's really about ability/ability tree design.
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the drama about ranger is that in one side you have people who want a sharpshooter and don't want to have to deal with the pet. Even if you take ghost heart subclass the ranger tree is still full of pet stuffs that really limit interesting things to pick up.
On the other side you have people who want to play a beastmaster class but find the pet not enough developed.
With multiclassing, they should just create 2 classes from the ranger : a sharpshooter/hunter one, with traps, stealth, sniper stuff and a true beastmaster class where the pet is more dominant with better active skills. If you want the old ranger class, you just have to multiclass the two (or mix with any other class).
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Yeah, it's not a question to nerf multiclassing than make single class more attractive. I think they need to take the time to rebalance the PL 6-9 of lot of classes. Even pl 6-7, because a single class character can spend more points at these PL, but some classes have a really weak PL6-7 tier, that make the single class less attractive. you have only the low level abilities, a passage of meh abilities and if you single class 1 or more 'good' pl 8-9 abilities. That make multiclassing far more optimal because you can avoid the dead zone of both classes.
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single class need to be much stronger
especially early
when the multi have the most advantage
And MC will be even more stronger. You need to accept the asymetric progression. A single class unlock more powerfull abilities faster. A part of the problem is the usefulness of these abilities. Some times what you unlock isn't very interesting and early abilities stay the most interesting.
You can't just compare dps of martial classes. Because a MC will combine passives. So a fighter/rogue with sneak attack and deathblow will always do more dmg than a pure fighter. By combining passives you'll get bigger numbers.
But Veolfen, you should have tested a pure Paladin and compare. Because perhaps your problem isn't MC superior to single class, but more Paladin can do more dmg than a fighter? A fighter don't have the dmg bonus like a rogue or barbarian. Not all classes have to be equal in dps, not all martial abilities are about dps. People never take into account support, utility and team role.
Classes need more balances and some skills be buffed/reworked to be more interesting choices, specialy late abilities for some classes. Classes need to offer more interesting choices.
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OMG... I haven't tested monk/shattered pillar for some time but this change just kill the subclass (and perhaps the class) for me. Forcing player to auto attack... I find auto attack boring... that why I just can't play a cipher without mc it with a martial class. I can understand they stopped wound attacks to generate wounds back, but all abilities... Well, I hope they will not do the samething with cipher and focus (that would simplify my choice of classes).
so why even take shattered pillar? Does riposte generate some wounds? if you build a high defense build, you could perhaps try the dance ability.
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That’s true about crippling strike, but for a multi class with shattered pillar specifically, that doesn’t matter so much since crippling strike won’t build wounds. You’re totally focused on actives from monk, so you’re free to spend guile only on escape and illusion spells.
Actually what looks really broken on the 1.2 trickster is 1 guile cost ryngrim’s repulsive visage. A persistent save or lose aura that also reduces enemy healing and max health and can be kept up indefinitely is way, way better than 10% weapon damage and more uses of rogue powers.
Wait, shattered pillar build wounds from melee attacks no? so a crippling strike with a melee weapon should build wounds? (or it changed?). But you're right that the good part of the combo is that you can use monk wounds abilities, and repulsive visage allow you to trigger all rogue dmg bonus.
When will you fix city battles?
in Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
One of the most annoying thing, NPC that walk in middle of a battle waiting to be hit by an AOE attack. Got the feeling to play an old MMO like Ultima Online where griefers do all their possible to be hit by you so they can gang you.
NPC need a basic AI behavior that push them to avoid battle! Why design city battles and don't think about NPC & Guard in first place? Their behavior make no sens and it ruin battles for player. It's a big flaw, it would have been better to put city battles in small maps without any neutral NPC, or write up a logical behavior.