Baley

A little bit of both I suppose, but at the movement I'm leading towards contentment. I've stopped being dissatisfied with my life a long time ago, and in that I have found peace of mind.

Heh. I don't think I have ever called myself free of all doctrines or ideologies, I am probably less their prisoner than the average Joe, but free of them I am not. My point was that atheism as a natural state does not enforce a doctrine. Religion does. To be an atheist in *my* truest sense, and let's be honest here my day to day philosophy is incredibly self-centred, one has to follow the simple "belief" in the non-existence of man-made gods. Once you add other convictions to this belief, and I'm not talking about building an ideology around it, more in the sense of militant elements, you become more than just an atheist, you still remain an atheist, that's still fundamentally part of you, but you evolve outside these original boundaries. I suppose we all build or borrow certain principles. For all we've got really are laws, we depend on them to function in the human society. I'm not rejecting laws or claiming that an atheist must do such a thing, no, what I'm saying is that atheism does not father laws. At least *my* atheism doesn't. And here we are back at the concept of the self. It's funny in a way. Perhaps because I wish not decide if the universe of chaos is better than the universe of order. Because I'm happy living somewhere in the middle.

The problem I see with atheism as an ideology is this. Atheism is simple. It doesn't depend on doctrines, dogmas, rules or laws. In its most purest state it is the honest lack of belief. Everything else is man-made. In its natural state the universe is godless, void, empty. To understand the universe gods have been created. To give meaning to the void, to instill order. And so we have gods, myriads of gods, keepers of age-old knowledge. Each god has his own dogma, his own ideology. They build temples of words. They give commandments unto us, informing us of what is best for us. But never showing their faces. For we are not ready. Instead they choose the enlightened few who are to guide our lives through their holiness, bastions of belief. How hard do you think it is for a man to realise that he has never felt God? That while he's alway been surrounded by His words, by His servants, he himself is void of belief? I cannot see God as a natural state. Nature is chaos. Gods are order. Laws, gods, ideologies are all symbols of order. They are that which is spawned out of our inherent need to make sense of the world around us, a world washed in chaos, guided by random chance. And so we have atheism. The natural state of the world. The absence of belief. It is so very simple once you think about it. We can delude ourselves with order, we can delude ourselves with laws, we can even close our eyes and mutter some insipid mantra. But the truth is simple. My soul has never felt God. And I shall certainly rather trust my soul than some old drunken preachers stranded on a mountain's top. One can of course link atheism to theism as if they are but two sides of the same coin. They are not. Atheism, obviously seen through my own perception, is the fundamental state of the universe. The word used to express it might not be the best of choices. But I like it. I do not like a lot of words. I would not even easily associate atheism with the mindless, angry, pubescent rebellion against the cloaked priests. It's more than that, much much more. Religion has changed the game, so to speak, it has brought its own rules, substituted the eternal universe's original laws. Created a human society based around its teachings. It has created ideologies. So atheism for me is never an ideology, it is free, free of laws, rules, dogmas, doctrines, commandments, orders, free to express itself in whichever fashion it desires. Rationalists and antitheists are not atheists in the truest sense. They are more than that. They have added their own puzzles and conundrums. They have replaced the laws of religion with the laws of man and science. Can you build an ideology around their teachings? I'd say no to antitheism, it's still pretty much doctrine free, one can of course be created but it would more likely be fathered by their desire for rebellion, for progress. You can't build it around atheism in its natural state. You can blame it on atheism, sure, you can say that it all comes out of atheism. But atheism has no laws. That's what they forget. All the laws they make are of their own minds, of their own volition. You can't create the order needed for an ideology out of atheism. As for rationalism, I don't know. What's rational? I've seen attempts at building a perfectly rational God. I myself know that I am less than rational. I'd rather not tackle this subject right now. What I've written here is all rather pointless. I'm sure we can both agree that the religious fundamentalism sprinting through the starved deserts of the middle East is a very very nasty thing and be done with it. We'll never agree because our definitions of the words in question are different. It's a tale as long as humanity itself. A tale of words and nuances.

You think so, eh?

This is an interesting topic, so I'll probably be up for a little fun tomorrow morning. But as things are, I haven't slept in over 15 hours and my brain is tired. So, I'll leave you with my own personal view of atheism and why I am an atheist. I have lived on this planet for a long time, and as far as I can recall, emotionally that's about 4-5 years, I have never felt a divine presence. That is why I am an atheist. I'm not exactly a diehard rationalist, and on many occasions I have rejected the rational world. I am not an antitheist either, at least I don't consider myself one. Do you truly believe that for a human to consider himself an atheist he has to be either a rationalist or an antitheist? Or are you using a personal definition of the word atheist, which forces men into finely tuned criteria? That question raises an interesting point in itself, if we were to look at it in a relativist fashion. Basically, as long as we have different understandings of the words debated and their implications neither of us are either right or wrong. If this ain't making much sense don't worry. I've left the world of conventional sense long ago, 4 hours actually. And now I must sleep. Good Morning.

For the sake of debate, if we were to indeed start one in the truest sense of the word, could you give me you definition of "ideology"?

Everything is Illuminated The Soul is our most important dominion. It is that which guides our every move, our every thought, our loves, our hates, our in-betweens, apathy. That which discovers its origins inside our memories. That which takes shape before our eyes, molded by our dreams, through our dreams. Our dreams, our plans, our schemes, our machinations, we play and play and though we do not always win, and though we do not always lose, we take refuge inside the game itself. The game and the soul are always linked. And we survive along that link. And we move along that link. We search and we create. The Soul never lies to us. It never cheats us. It will forever tell the truth. All we have to do is hear it, be open to its words. Understand. Accept. Civilization dances around the Soul's words, around its melody. The Soul is of our making, always of our making. We share its faults. There is the Soul of man, there is the Soul of nations, there is the Soul of humans, separated by invisible borders. And when a nation's Soul gets corrupted by an ideology we all pay for it. Our individual souls grow ever colder, battered, abused, beaten to the pulp of insanity, miles beyond recognition. A broken spirit wasted by guilt. And we move on. We forget. We change our clothes and wash our faces. We look for guidance elsewhere. We leave our souls behind. And they die. All but the greatest of souls die. It's nature's way. 1930. Romania. An entire generation seduced by an ideology. Brotherhood, Christianity, nationalism. They killed. They raped. They stole. All in the name of order. The motherland rising. Jews, Gypsies, banished, murdered, those in power laughing. The people murdering the people. An entire generation bathed in guilt. A nation left soulless. I watched this movie with little elation at first. It seemed fake, bogus, hollow. Caricatures running around. Ukraine is a lot like Romania. The same disease floating through it's veins. Clinching to religion, abandoning the Soul. Living a lie. The Holocaust is real. We're still dealing with its implications. It will forever be a stain upon the Soul of all those who deny it. And then there's this movie, so beautifully Eastern-European, never perfect. It's humour is Eastern-European. It's heart, it's beat are Easter-European. And to truly enjoy it one must accept the past. In it we are reflected. In it we find ourselves again and again. Our parents. Our grandparents. Billions of humans lives, their souls, their details. This movie has a gigantic soul. It talks to us so clearly, it makes us laugh, it makes us cry, it makes us rejoice and mourn. It's sensible and harsh. It's honest. Even when it fails, it keeps its honesty, pretension here is in the mind of the viewer and in it alone it shows itself. Liev Schreiber's debut is perhaps the most personal movie I have ever had the pleasure of seeing, and there it's greatest triumph lies, the music, the countryside, the people. They're honest. It's honest. There's no bull**** at its core. And that my friends, that is riveting! Remarkably riveting! And I shall now stop spilling my usual garbage and leave you with the lyrics of Gogol Bordello ( the band's leader Eugene Hutz plays one of the leading roles), the Gypsy punk band that made some contributions to the film's score and overall mood. Illumination Don't believe them for a moment For a second, do not believe, my friend When you are down, them are not coming With a helping hand Of course this is no us and them But them they do not think the same It's them who do not think They never step on spiritual path They paint their faces so differently from ours And if you listen closely That war it never stops Be them new Romans Don't envy them my friend Be their lives longer Their longer lives are spent Without a love or faithful friend All those things they have to rent But we who see our destiny In sound of this same old punk song Let rest originality for sake of passing it around Illuminating realization number one: You are the only light there is For yourself my friend There'll be no saviors any soon coming down And anyway illuminations Never come from the crowned Illuminating realization number one: You are the only light there is For yourself my friend

They won it.

119 points

They made use of Christian symbols. Hitler did indeed support what is known as "Positive Christianity" . I'm sure a google search would yield interesting results. Suffice to say, as long as Christianity stayed out of politics, and for the most part it did, he didn't mind it much.

Hehehe. Yeah, I've been totally browsing that certain thread we were discussing earlier today. Good going, jerkface.

Define actively reject. It is simply the absence of belief in the god concept that defines an atheist. Everything else is of a personal volition. You're thinking of antitheism. It is still not an ideology. A conviction sure, an influential conviction, but a conviction still. For it to be an ideology, a human would have to build his entire set of beliefs around it, political, cultural, social, you name it. And I very much doubt that a man could achieve such a deed. It just doesn't seem feasible.

( A )

B)

Atheism is not an ideology. It can be part of an ideology but it can not form one by itself. It is simply a lack of belief. The political, financial or social positions one takes are usually influenced by society's constant molding. All it takes to be an atheist is the rejection of the god concept. That's all. The choice afterwards, the choice of how to act, of how to speak, of how to treat your fellow humans rests on your shoulders and yours alone. Vilify is a real word, yes.

Aww.

Can we keep him?

I'd DM but I don't know how to DM.

We could wait for Eldar to arrive. Let's give him, um, 30 more minutes?

But you're boring, vapid, insipid and jejune! All combined, fused and interwoven, like a gigantic didactic conundrum, like those misty nebulae discernible when a moderately dangerous puddle bites you by the bolloks. I'm losing my hope in humanity, here, all over again, again and again. Get back to the Kotor boards! Shoo! Shoo!

They're all wearing various police uniforms. The Butthole Surfers - U.S.S.A

He wears the gas mask.

Someone PM Deraldin about this whole DM nonsense. I'm also game for tonight unless I unexpectedly fall asleep. 50%-50%.