[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Aramintai]

So I've completed the game but I don't understand what te ef happened at the end. Eothas destroyed the Wheel?

Wasn't the Wheel and souls moving through adra veins to the Beyond and reincarnation a natural phenomenon of Eora?

 

But the ending suggests that Engwithans not only created the gods, but also the reincarnation Wheel and the In Between to sustain them.

It also suggests that without reincarnation souls won't go anywhere after the Wheel is broken and sooner or later all living beings will die off because souls won't reincarnate. If Engwithans created the reincarnation system then how did it work before them?

 

And lastly the ending suggests that somebody (animancers) can later fix the Wheel. What. The. Ef. What was the point of breaking it (and the whole plot of the game) in the first place then?

[Eldryth]

I don't remember if it explained exactly how things worked before the Wheel, but here's how I understood it:

 

If the reincarnation cycle was created by the Engwithans, then there were no souls being reborn.  You'd be born once, die, and move into the Beyond, where you'd remain for eternity- much like we heard would happen if the Wheel is destroyed.  This would also imply that even births were finite before the Wheel- eventually, there would be no new souls to be born, and kith would simply die out.  The Wheel allows for used souls to be recycled, draining a little bit for the gods in the process.  This effectively turns them from a finite resource into a nearly infinite one.

 

And lastly the ending suggests that somebody (animancers) can later fix the Wheel. What. The. Ef. What was the point of breaking it (and the whole plot of the game) in the first place then?

 

Fixing the Wheel is actually the core of Eothas's plan.  It's a test for the kith- they're meant to find a solution to the Wheel's destruction, and in the process they'll grow beyond the need for the gods.  It also gives them an opportunity to stop powering the gods leaving them out of the new Wheel, if the kith don't want to continue serving them after learning the truth about their creation.

[Ryz009]

Yeah my issue with the ending is with the Engwithans too. If there was no wheel how exactly were they not being overwhelmed with ghosts?

 

I did cackle when I got the worst ending at least. The perfect ending to a bad end history if I ever saw one.

[Aramintai]

I don't remember if it explained exactly how things worked before the Wheel, but here's how I understood it:

 

If the reincarnation cycle was created by the Engwithans, then there were no souls being reborn.  You'd be born once, die, and move into the Beyond, where you'd remain for eternity- much like we heard would happen if the Wheel is destroyed.  This would also imply that even births were finite before the Wheel- eventually, there would be no new souls to be born, and kith would simply die out.  The Wheel allows for used souls to be recycled, draining a little bit for the gods in the process.  This effectively turns them from a finite resource into a nearly infinite one.

I dunno, this sounds stupid to me. Kith lived for untold generations before Engwithans invented the gods and nobody died out then - tens of thousands years old migration of the elves and kith, bustling empires, no mention of any decline. I think what the devs wanted to do with this is give an option for the kith to live like we do in the real world - we die, that's it (unless you believe in Hinduism and reincarnations). But while we don't have any proof of having a soul, souls in Eora are a fact. Also, adra veins are definitely a natural phenomenon, unless devs decide later to retcon those too. So souls moving through adra into Eora's depths to reincarnate is a thing done by Engwithans too? I think somebody needed to think on this some more before retconing the **** out of everything.

 

 

Fixing the Wheel is actually the core of Eothas's plan.  It's a test for the kith- they're meant to find a solution to the Wheel's destruction, and in the process they'll grow beyond the need for the gods.  It also gives them an opportunity to stop powering the gods leaving them out of the new Wheel, if the kith don't want to continue serving them after learning the truth about their creation.

The whole premise of breaking it just to make a whole game plot out if it sounds more silly the more I think about it. If it's working fine why break it? Just to prove something, to make a point? Sure, the gods needed to be brought down a notch but not by shooting yourself in the foot, surely? Not only are the gods doomed to wane with this but also the kith if they don't find a solution. Way to leave people hanging, Eothas! I think he just lost his marbles after dying the first time.

 

Anyway, I'm not satisfied with the ending. It is confusing in the mechanics of it, in the unclear explanation why was this necessary at all or what will happen next. And my main gripe is with "Engwithans created the reincarnation Wheel" retcon. Also, the gods in the sequel were a bunch of toothless sissies squabbing with each other, I liked them more in POE1, they seemed more potent and confident then.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Aramintai

[Ciphys]

I do not know if this was based on the conversations with the other gods during the course of the game, but from what happened to me: Is there no way to convince Eothas NOT to break the wheel? All options I got either was dying(from trying to provoke a "fight"), reduce the suffering of the souls, empower one of the gods, "inspire" kith, or try to convince him to destroy everything instead (Rymrgand's wish). 

[Ciphys]

I was kind of hoping for some grand debate like the one with Ondra vs high Intellect Watcher, or with the Eyeless in the end of the White March... 

[Aramintai]

I do not know if this was based on the conversations with the other gods during the course of the game, but from what happened to me: Is there no way to convince Eothas NOT to break the wheel? All options I got either was dying(from trying to provoke a "fight"), reduce the suffering of the souls, empower one of the gods, "inspire" kith, or try to convince him to destroy everything instead (Rymrgand's wish). 

Nope, he still breaks it no matter what 

[Ciphys]

 

I do not know if this was based on the conversations with the other gods during the course of the game, but from what happened to me: Is there no way to convince Eothas NOT to break the wheel? All options I got either was dying(from trying to provoke a "fight"), reduce the suffering of the souls, empower one of the gods, "inspire" kith, or try to convince him to destroy everything instead (Rymrgand's wish). 

Nope, he still breaks it no matter what 

 

Oh wow... that is sort of disappointing...

 

Because during the course of the game, the other gods basically asks you what your opinion is on what Eothas is doing. My Watcher was kind of neutral and never took a "side", so I first thought it had something to do with that.

 

 

[Eldryth]

I dunno, this sounds stupid to me. Kith lived for untold generations before Engwithans invented the gods and nobody died out then - tens of thousands years old migration of the elves and kith, bustling empires, no mention of any decline. I think what the devs wanted to do with this is give an option for the kith to live like we do in the real world - we die, that's it (unless you believe in Hinduism and reincarnations). But while we don't have any proof of having a soul, souls in Eora are a fact. Also, adra veins are definitely a natural phenomenon, unless devs decide later to retcon those too. So souls moving through adra into Eora's depths to reincarnate is a thing done by Engwithans too? I think somebody needed to think on this some more before retconing the **** out of everything.

 

I'd say it's plausible even with what we knew before.  Just because something finite doesn't mean it won't last a long time.  The limit could have been drawing close at the time of the Engwithans, or it could have been a long-term issue even then.  For that matter, I don't recall the gods saying we'd run out of souls any time soon this time around either- just that it would happen eventually.

 

As for the adra veins, I'd assume they're a natural resource that the Engwithans made use of as part of the Wheel.

[Veevoir]

But where does this resource come from? With Wheel souls come from In-between.. before The Wheel - they were just hanging around waiting to be used? Doesn't exactly make sense.

[Aramintai]

But where does this resource come from? With Wheel souls come from In-between.. before The Wheel - they were just hanging around waiting to be used? Doesn't exactly make sense.

That's exactly what is confusing. This Wheel retcon doesn't make sense.

[Veevoir]

Yeah, I was expecting that The Wheel Engwitans created was an extra syphon on the "natural" process - to keep feeding the artificial gods. And by destorying it Eothas would let the gods die/go back into the actual rebirth cycle.

Then it went "nah, they invented the whole thing, before there was no reincarnation".

Maybe the souls were not lying around but came from adra? That would make sense as limited resource, but it again does not as Adra captures soul essence from the dead, so it works in the opposite way.

This lacks cohesion or a sensible in game explanation. The first question I'd ask after learning that Wheel was absolutely artificial would be "wait, what, so how it worked before?"

Edited May 11, 2018 by Veevoir

[Ryz009]

Yeah would've been better if those machines stripped a bit of those souls for the gods powers and that was ruining the souls making more people awakened and causing more undead phenomenon. At least then destroying the machines would've been sensible and weakened the gods.

[Aramintai]

Yeah would've been better if those machines stripped a bit of those souls for the gods powers and that was ruining the souls making more people awakened and causing more undead phenomenon. At least then destroying the machines would've been sensible and weakened the gods.

Yea, devs should have stopped right there. It made sense that the In Between was a siphoning sieve for the gods, but after that it just went as incoherent canon retcon.

[Tarlonniel]

Yeah would've been better if those machines stripped a bit of those souls for the gods powers and that was ruining the souls making more people awakened and causing more undead phenomenon. At least then destroying the machines would've been sensible and weakened the gods.

 

I completely agree. Granted, it was something like 2am when I finished the game for the first time, but the more I thought about the ending, the less I understood it for all the reasons mentioned in this thread.

[PsychoBlonde]

They could have very easily have hung a perfectly functional lampshade over this issue by having Eothas (or SOMEONE) inform you that the Engwithans screwed up the adra in the world so badly with all their crazy animancy hoodoo that the Wheel became NECESSARY as artificial life support because the natural way simply didn't work any more.  That would have been kind of cool, because it would make the gods and their former society stand out as that much more vicious.

Edited May 12, 2018 by PsychoBlonde

[Aramintai]

They could have very easily have hung a perfectly functional lampshade over this issue by having Eothas (or SOMEONE) inform you that the Engwithans screwed up the adra in the world so badly with all their crazy animancy hoodoo that the Wheel became NECESSARY as artificial life support because the natural way simply didn't work any more.  That would have been kind of cool, because it would make the gods and their former society stand out as that much more vicious.

Not a bad idea, not in the game unfortunately.

[lordgizka]

I don't remember the exact quote from Thaos during Poe endgame, but he basically claimed that gods are a good idea, because the reality of people being constantly reborn, but with their souls always getting smaller until they are destroyed completely, is too depressing.

 

He could be lying, I mean, but that would be stupid. I am interpreting this as a retcon. I hope it has actual storytelling reason, and not just a case of nobody giving a crap. Optional locations not having a lick of story and ridiculously limited interactions with companions make me lean towards the second alternative...

[Aramintai]

I don't remember the exact quote from Thaos during Poe endgame, but he basically claimed that gods are a good idea, because the reality of people being constantly reborn, but with their souls always getting smaller until they are destroyed completely, is too depressing.

I don't recall any of that, but I do remember him explaining that real gods were a good idea because people were fighting each other all the time over thousands of imaginary ones before.

[Yria]

Thaos does say something about how depressing it was to know that there was no meaning, no gods, just the Wheel slowly grinding our souls into dust. I didn't remember it until lordgizka brought it up, but yeah, it's there. Iovara's words about the Engwythans discovering the Wheel are easier to write off since she could be wrong in her assumptions. But if even Thaos himself confirms it, it is indeed a retcon. 

[Aramintai]

Thaos does say something about how depressing it was to know that there was no meaning, no gods, just the Wheel slowly grinding our souls into dust. I didn't remember it until lordgizka brought it up, but yeah, it's there. Iovara's words about the Engwythans discovering the Wheel are easier to write off since she could be wrong in her assumptions. But if even Thaos himself confirms it, it is indeed a retcon. 

This all just confirms that the Wheel was there before Engwithans.

[Tarlonniel]

Also, the gods in the sequel were a bunch of toothless sissies squabbing with each other, I liked them more in POE1, they seemed more potent and confident then.

I kind of liked the Greek god-esque squabbling, but their utter uselessness was baffling. They apparently have enough power to pull moons down from the sky, but when Eothas threatens the world and their existence, they decide to just send a mortal to spy on him? That's it?

 

I'm struggling to think of a way Eothas's plan could end well. Right now, only the Republics (and possibly the Dyrwood) have any kind of animancy research going on. If and when other nations hear about what happened in the Archipelago, are they going to A) believe it, B) overcome centuries of prejudice and support the practice of animancy, C) co-operate with the other nations trying to solve the problem? I have my doubts. Can the Republics solve this alone? How long do they have? Will the government make this a priority or get sidetracked by other, more immediate, more tangible issues?

 

A related question is just how obvious the effects of destroying the Wheel will be. If they're not noticeable enough, they're going to get ignored by most of the world's population. If they're too noticeable (See: Hollowborn crisis), there's going to be wide-spread chaos.

 

And, of course, back to the gods - are they going to do anything? Will they just make things worse (signs point to yes)?

[Yria]

 

Thaos does say something about how depressing it was to know that there was no meaning, no gods, just the Wheel slowly grinding our souls into dust. I didn't remember it until lordgizka brought it up, but yeah, it's there. Iovara's words about the Engwythans discovering the Wheel are easier to write off since she could be wrong in her assumptions. But if even Thaos himself confirms it, it is indeed a retcon. 

This all just confirms that the Wheel was there before Engwithans.

Yes. Also, now that I think about it didn't the pale elves in Twin Elms claim that they were reborn into the same tribe ever since they settled in the White that Wends? But pale elves came to that region 12 thousand years ago, long before the creation of the gods and (according to the second game) of the reincarnation system itself. But I might be misremembering that conersation with their leader. 

 

Though I must say I always found the Wheel system a bit weird even in the first game. If there is a finite number of soul essence in the world, and all the souls just keep splitting upon rebirth until they are no more, that, too, means that some day in the distant future the world will die out, no?

[Aramintai]

And, of course, back to the gods - are they going to do anything? Will they just make things worse (signs point to yes)?

 

Yea, it was weird in POE2, everybody was impotent to do anything about Eothas - the Watcher, the gods, the factions. The gods at least were much more potent and willing to meddle in the past. Dunno why they suddenly decided to sit this one out, especially considering their whole existence was on the line.

[Aramintai]

 

 

Thaos does say something about how depressing it was to know that there was no meaning, no gods, just the Wheel slowly grinding our souls into dust. I didn't remember it until lordgizka brought it up, but yeah, it's there. Iovara's words about the Engwythans discovering the Wheel are easier to write off since she could be wrong in her assumptions. But if even Thaos himself confirms it, it is indeed a retcon. 

This all just confirms that the Wheel was there before Engwithans.

Yes. Also, now that I think about it didn't the pale elves in Twin Elms claim that they were reborn into the same tribe ever since they settled in the White that Wends? But pale elves came to that region 12 thousand years ago, long before the creation of the gods and (according to the second game) of the reincarnation system itself. But I might be misremembering that conersation with their leader. 

Exactly, I pointed that out too earlier. I think we'll just have to swallow this poorly explained retcon, I don't see a way to tie so many loose ends.