Ship crew mechanics disappointing...

[SonicMage117]

Actually I already gave the specifics of how Deadfire differs from Sunless Sea since people aren't too familiar with the latter, I had to break it down. If you want, you can look back a couple pages and the long comment #14 is there (I don't want to repeat or quote myself for the sake of space saving).

 

But I see now 4 games total. I have never played Monkey Island but I did end up getting a copy of Abandon Ship from the dev. It's strictly naval based so that's why I said it's simplified but for different reasons (hence not to be compared).

 

The thread is about, as the title suggests: Ship crew mechanics

Edited March 4, 2018 by SonicMage117

[JerekKruger]

Personally I think we should be more disappointed with how Sunless Sea's city exploration stands up to Deadfires: a few text options with small art work vs. literally being able to walk around the city with my pals. Terrible!

 

Actually I already gave the specifics of how Deadfire differs from Sunless Sea since people aren't too familiar, I had to break it down. If you want, you can look back a couple pages and the long comment #14 is there (I don't want to repeat or quote myself for the sake of space saving).

 

The problem with that is you seem to have an unhealthy addiction to thesauri, making your points painful to decipher. Using bigger, less common words doesn't help get your message across, indeed it has the opposite affect when you misuse many of those words.

[Guest]

The problem with that is you seem to have an unhealthy addiction to thesauri.

How else are we supposed to notice how Very Smart he is?

[SonicMage117]

That's the reason I made the thread specifically about ship/crew mechanics. These things are comparable as their design are close, but city exploration is far too different and non-comparable. I'm not sure you've played Sunless Sea but city exploration is done through text, unlike Deadfire which is where one watches their character's 3D model explore in animations. If it's graphics and animation you seek, in Deadfire you shall find.

 

And indeed, now can you please point out which words I have misused? Enlighten me, I'd love to be corrected so that I lock that in for next time's sake.

[Wormerine]

Actually I already gave the specifics of how Deadfire differs from Sunless Sea since people aren't too familiar with the latter, I had to break it down. If you want, you can look back a couple pages and the long comment #14 is there (I don't want to repeat or quote myself for the sake of space saving).

No, I have seen it. You are listing there things that Sunless Sea does that Deadfire doesn’t. I just don’t see how they have anything to do with Deadfire system, or how Deadfire would benefit by implementing them. You want your crew to make babies? Or go insane? Or jump of the ship or coming suicide after you went through a quest to recruit them?

 

Some of them are also incorrect. Deadfire has different ships which vary in layout, crew, cannon capacity, possibly more. Crew have different skills, making them more fit for different positions. Ships jobs are hardly unrealistic. If there is an additional job which could be added and would add an interesting functionality which isn’t in Deadfire yet, I am sure a suggestion would be welcome.

[Yosharian]

 

The problem with that is you seem to have an unhealthy addiction to thesauri.

How else are we supposed to notice how Very Smart he is?

 

It's funny how you accuse SonicMage of being unconstructive and adding nothing to the forums, when you constantly post passive-aggressive snipes at other forum members and generally contribute nothing to discussions.

 

But yeah, SonicMage with his (admittedly sometimes bizarre) threads that consistently get tons of replies and attention, he's the troll, definitely.  You aren't a troll, oh no.  You're a fine, upstanding member of the community by comparison.  Self-awareness approaching zero.

[SonicMage117]

I think possible crew abuse/overworking leading to a mutiny is a great example of what an improved system would bring about and would be a great addition to Deadfire's experience as a whole. It would definitely add some more excitement and realism.

 

Possible mental sicknesses due to fear and paranoia should be a thing since there are gigantic creatures at sea. Hopefully this gets put in Deadfire. Cannabalism due to lack of food, etc. These types of events may not be needed for a decent core naval experience which involves a crew but could drastically improve it to greatness when done right, instead of losing a point of say, 'resolve' which would make it boring.

 

Also, the examples in Sunless Sea, such as (but not limited to) stuff like being able to have children on board would be great, not sure if it would benefit everyone's experience but some people would love it, no doubt. Interactivity with crew would be great as well, and though it would vastly improve the naval experience, I'm not too sure if Obsidian will focus on bringing that to the table.

 

That said, at least events in Deadfire can cause things like a leak or maybe losing a crew to high fever, I just will be a bit sad if crew in only addressed as "your crew" at all times instead of allowing for individual interactivity. And at least there is some level of a morality system according to the newest update, it just won't be as in-depth or satisfying as the one we see in Sunless Sea.

[Yosharian]

I think possible crew abuse/overworking leading to a mutiny is a great example of what an improved system would bring about and would be a great addition to Deadfire's experience as a whole. It would definitely add some more excitement and realism.

 

Possible mental sicknesses due to fear and paranoia should be a thing since there are gigantic creatures at sea. Hopefully this gets put in Deadfire. Cannabalism due to lack of food, etc. These types of events may not be needed for a decent core naval experience which involves a crew but could drastically improve it to greatness when done right, instead of losing a point of say, 'resolve' which would make it boring.

 

Also, the examples in Sunless Sea, such as (but not limited to) stuff like being able to have children on board would be great, not sure if it would benefit everyone's experience but some people would love it, no doubt. Interactivity with crew would be great as well, and though it would vastly improve the naval experience, I'm not too sure if Obsidian will focus on bringing that to the table.

 

That said, at least events in Deadfire can cause things like a leak or maybe losing a crew to high fever, I just will be a bit sad if crew in only addressed as "your crew" at all times instead of allowing for individual interactivity. And at least there is some level of a morality system according to the newest update, it just won't be as in-depth or satisfying as the one we see in Sunless Sea.

 

Building more ship mechanics into Deadfire would have to come at a cost, i.e. less time spent on other things in the game.  Pillars foremost is an RPG game, not a ship simulation game.  Your suggestions have merit, but the developers clearly don't have the time to implement so many complex systems while simultaneously making the core game as good as it can possibly be.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Yosharian

[Lamppost in Winter]

I think possible crew abuse/overworking leading to a mutiny is a great example of what an improved system would bring about and would be a great addition to Deadfire's experience as a whole. It would definitely add some more excitement and realism.

 

This is already a thing, your crew's morale lowering can lead to mutinies.

[theBalthazar]

This topic is The Truth.

 

But he is already trolled.

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by theBalthazar

[SonicMage117]

As far as I can tell, the trolling seems to have nothing to do with the thread but is rather stems off a grudge-like attitude which formed from past threads I've written certain members got hurt feelings over, that and butting heads in different comment sections of threads. If we look at the comments so far, virtually every predictable forum knockdown has been used in order to make the thread seem invalid (obviously not working). Still, the efforts for achieving this task is most impressive.

 

Reverse trolling is key to success - Always be the first to call the person you're trolling a troll, make sure you're not alone, ect. Forum logic 101 If they really wanted to troll me though, they'd just let the thread die... then I'll be REALLY angry. Okay, not really lol but it would seem a bit more strategically effective and logical.

 

Anyway, I'm happy to hear Deadfire has mutineers. I wonder what extent this will be. Would the consequences be grave? I'm getting more excited to play it!!!

[rheingold]

Hell, I'm already seriously worried that Obs have bitten of more than they can chew - with all the changes from POE. The last thing they need to do is to give more resources to ship mechanics...

[rjshae]

Hell, I'm already seriously worried that Obs have bitten of more than they can chew - with all the changes from POE. The last thing they need to do is to give more resources to ship mechanics...

 

Any such changes will likely come with future expansions, possibly following feedback from the audience. If it adds to the role-playing elements then great. Otherwise... meh.

[wahmann1]

 

Besides keeping your crew well fed and kept, which is a trait in these types of games, there are a few things I will list to which insists makes Deadfire's ship crew mechanics inferior. I won't touch the basics becaue all 3 games I listed in my original post seem to be vastly similar as far as basic functions and mechanics outline goes.

 

*Crew can degress morally, causing them to get sick, physically or mentally. They can be driven insane or panick and kill off the other crew members or even the captain. Disease is plentiful, but insanity can be even more plentiful.

 

*Crew can act for themselves and make decisions for themselves. If the sea or battles get to be too much, they will abandon ship without permissible cause or intent of captain/admiral.

 

*Crew may be limited to 2 crew members if a barrage is successful, but must be at least 3 crew memebers if a barrage is not successful. So there lies a penalty for not being successful.

 

*Crew capacity is based off of what type of ship you are using. Thus, upgrading or building unto your ship avails room for more crew, which is logical I suppose.

 

*Prize crew for abandoned or comendeered vessel which allows you to set to follow, lay waste, or go to dock. This can be used to multiply your crew or minimize it. You may store members for later use. You will not have a party of two or three in Sunless Sea as you do in Sid Meiers Pirates but you will have a spare ship or what may.

 

*Crew are free to kill themselves in different ways, if so choose. Of course, they must be driven to this point. They can stab themselves, shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump ship and sacrifice themselves to what lies beneath.

 

*Ship romances lead to having a baby/kid on board. This changes the morality a bit and can manipulate/change the dialouge a bit. As one who played countless hours of Sunless Sea, I was surprised at how exactly it changed my prerspective of the game as well as any other who has played it.

 

*Ship jobs are more varied and realistic in Sunless Sea. You have cook, doctor, musician, weapon master, etc. Each one has a specific job based on attributes and stats to drive them to be better at one task than another member so this makes it a bit more realistic easily.

 

*The morality and reputation system of Sunless Sea is very evolved and has an effect on how crew reacts and behaves on ship as well as off ship. If you have a master thief in your party, they may steal for you while in London but may steal from you if on ship and hungry. A seducttress may attempt to seduce you and kill you in your sleep in order to take control of the vessel. The crew could mutinize you if you are abusive or neglectful or make promises you cannot keep.

 

Can not speak about rank specifics yet though since as far as I know, Obsidian hasn't explained too much about the rank system. I do know that Sunless Sea has a very complex rank system that makes sense though. Promotion is a powerful motivator and demotion can send some off the rail.

 

Most of these seem more suited to a game in which you spend most of your time on and interacting with the ship. In Pillars, theres a lot of other 'stuff' in the game to divide your attention. I feel like the simpler approach to ship mechanics is much better for a game like Pillars. Plus, theres always a limited amount of development resources so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put so much time into developing such intricate systems for a part of the game that is basically an optional mechanic for a lot of players.

 

I don't know about that. Increasing elegance without substantially drawing attention away from what is the focus of the game is great. A more elegant morale component (not saying it is already at maximum elegance) would be welcome if it could be done without detracting from other elements.

 

I personally hope to have the companions and crew more integrated. I mentioned in another post I would like a proficiency for ship crew that would allow you to forgo another weapon proficiency in favor of replacing a crew member with a companion. I could also see this handled as a skill, where each point gets you a rank, but skill points are too valuable right now to justify that, I think. You would be trading a thing of nominal value (a proficiency) for another thing of nominal value (no need to feed and pay another crew member), but it has other important effects, as well. For example, if you really hate the idea of mutiny, insanity, suicide, etc., spending that proficiency to make a companion into crew would ease your anxiety (assuming companions are not impacted by the morale mechanic).

 

The only problem I have with adding crew duties is it is hard to think of them. I like the idea of a marine, who would get stars for boarding action ranks that would make them tougher than other crew and, if you keep an appropriately large squad of marines, perhaps would keep other crew from getting hurt. It's elegant because you only hire marines if you are going to fight other ships and can safely ignore it if you have no interest. I could see a steward, purser, or chaplain if there were mechanics that accompanied them, such as trading, but they seem a bit farther off than a marine, which would be easy to implement.

 

I would enjoy a couple more combat options, so long as they could be added elegantly. I think the most obvious one is different cannon loads, which has been mentioned many times. I think using different cannons to accomplish a different effect is not as interesting (though a historical argument could be made for either side). If you decide you are closing to capture the ship, grapeshot (no damage to hull) or canister shot (even more damage to deck crew, less to sails); if you are trying to get away, chain shot (damage to hull or sails, but at close range); and if you are just trying to kill the other ship, cannon balls (or double shot at close range).

[wahmann1]

 

I think possible crew abuse/overworking leading to a mutiny is a great example of what an improved system would bring about and would be a great addition to Deadfire's experience as a whole. It would definitely add some more excitement and realism.

 

Possible mental sicknesses due to fear and paranoia should be a thing since there are gigantic creatures at sea. Hopefully this gets put in Deadfire. Cannabalism due to lack of food, etc. These types of events may not be needed for a decent core naval experience which involves a crew but could drastically improve it to greatness when done right, instead of losing a point of say, 'resolve' which would make it boring.

 

Also, the examples in Sunless Sea, such as (but not limited to) stuff like being able to have children on board would be great, not sure if it would benefit everyone's experience but some people would love it, no doubt. Interactivity with crew would be great as well, and though it would vastly improve the naval experience, I'm not too sure if Obsidian will focus on bringing that to the table.

 

That said, at least events in Deadfire can cause things like a leak or maybe losing a crew to high fever, I just will be a bit sad if crew in only addressed as "your crew" at all times instead of allowing for individual interactivity. And at least there is some level of a morality system according to the newest update, it just won't be as in-depth or satisfying as the one we see in Sunless Sea.

 

Building more ship mechanics into Deadfire would have to come at a cost, i.e. less time spent on other things in the game.  Pillars foremost is an RPG game, not a ship simulation game.  Your suggestions have merit, but the developers clearly don't have the time to implement so many complex systems while simultaneously making the core game as good as it can possibly be.

 

I don't think it is quite so stark. You always have low-hanging fruit. Making a non-essential part of the game a lot better with 8 hours of work might be superior to making an essential part of the game a tiny bit better with 8 hours of work. The key question would be how much work and how much better. Not everyone agrees the ship stuff should be easy to ignore. I know because I am one of those "not everyone." Not everyone agrees on what is essential, either. Is party banter essential? I would say it is not, but when Eder asks "Can I pet him anyway?" it was pretty awesome (for me). Party banter might not be worth as much time as storyline, graphics, and combat mechanics, but a little love went a long way (again, at least for me).

[Yosharian]

 

 

I think possible crew abuse/overworking leading to a mutiny is a great example of what an improved system would bring about and would be a great addition to Deadfire's experience as a whole. It would definitely add some more excitement and realism.

 

Possible mental sicknesses due to fear and paranoia should be a thing since there are gigantic creatures at sea. Hopefully this gets put in Deadfire. Cannabalism due to lack of food, etc. These types of events may not be needed for a decent core naval experience which involves a crew but could drastically improve it to greatness when done right, instead of losing a point of say, 'resolve' which would make it boring.

 

Also, the examples in Sunless Sea, such as (but not limited to) stuff like being able to have children on board would be great, not sure if it would benefit everyone's experience but some people would love it, no doubt. Interactivity with crew would be great as well, and though it would vastly improve the naval experience, I'm not too sure if Obsidian will focus on bringing that to the table.

 

That said, at least events in Deadfire can cause things like a leak or maybe losing a crew to high fever, I just will be a bit sad if crew in only addressed as "your crew" at all times instead of allowing for individual interactivity. And at least there is some level of a morality system according to the newest update, it just won't be as in-depth or satisfying as the one we see in Sunless Sea.

 

Building more ship mechanics into Deadfire would have to come at a cost, i.e. less time spent on other things in the game.  Pillars foremost is an RPG game, not a ship simulation game.  Your suggestions have merit, but the developers clearly don't have the time to implement so many complex systems while simultaneously making the core game as good as it can possibly be.

 

I don't think it is quite so stark. You always have low-hanging fruit. Making a non-essential part of the game a lot better with 8 hours of work might be superior to making an essential part of the game a tiny bit better with 8 hours of work. The key question would be how much work and how much better. Not everyone agrees the ship stuff should be easy to ignore. I know because I am one of those "not everyone." Not everyone agrees on what is essential, either. Is party banter essential? I would say it is not, but when Eder asks "Can I pet him anyway?" it was pretty awesome (for me). Party banter might not be worth as much time as storyline, graphics, and combat mechanics, but a little love went a long way (again, at least for me).

 

 

8 hours?  Oh come on.

[SonicMage117]

More of my thoughts (pompous babbling as some may indulge in claiming)...

 

Some people will see Deadfire's promotional shot of the characters on the ship and buy the game because it has a ship and nothing more. This doesn't make their interest any less validated to purchase the game. In fact, Obsidian was clever to do it that way to get new fans. Not everyone will purchase the game for this reason but realistically more will than all of us would like to think. Espwcailly, given that ship theme has only become a more popular thing in gaming over recent years, this is not at all surprising.

 

Admittedly, I backed Deadfire because I really enjoyed PoE1, granted, if I knew nothing about Deadfire or Crpg's, I'd be one of "those" people who buys it because it has some sort of naval combat. Even if that is not the game's main attraction, it would still be enough for me to be interested in trying it. As said before, if the ship/sailing is done right, some people will spend more time sailing in the game than on foot. I don't believe I need to stress how it will be a fairly large amount of people who will do this.

 

If sailing was just a sliver of the game, I could see it being forced down to a minimum of mechanics and working but it's still a pretty major part of the game. I mean, we're going to be using ships to travel and explore, fight, heal, store, random encounters, some primary events, etc. So this is why it's easy to see that players would spend more time on ship than off it.

 

Betting that one of the three expansions will be heavily focused on the naval activites wouldn't be too far off. My wishful thinking may pay off in the end. Haha!

Edited March 5, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Wormerine]

https://youtu.be/Y-BRyNEaUMo

Reputation increased with Wormerine: +10

[wahmann1]

8 hours?  Oh come on.

 "8 hours" was just intended to mean some amount of time. I wasn't trying to imply that everything takes 8 hours to implement.