Thoughts on Wizard Summoned Weapons

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

 

 

ps (edit) regardless o' jk's misrepresentations, the summoned weapons from poe allowed casters to, in conjunction with proper talent selections and spell layering, approach or exceed the martial power of other classes.  to maintain the same dynamic in deadfire, wherein multiclass selection allows for a plethora o' options for equalling or exceeding the weapon powha o' any single class, maintaining the superiority o' summoned weapons is  a highly suspect approach.

 

 

 

Other side though: if summoned weapons *aren't* superior  . . .  why do they even exist?

 

You're using an ability slot for them and you have to take time to cast them. If they *aren't* superior to whatever loot you've found, why are you bothering with them?

 

I'd say that at minimum they should do an unusual damage type (Burning, Corrosive, etc.) and have some kind of accuracy / damage bonus at least slightly above typical loot for equivalent caster level. Otherwise there's no point in having them at all.

[Skaddix]

Eh Citzal at least has AOE damage although I suppose Barb gets you that all the time.

[KDubya]

The summoned weapon doesn't have to be obviously better, being merely equal at times would be enough.

 

Consider the staff:

• Level 1-4 Gets draining which you won't have from anything else at this point in the game.
• Level 5-8 Fine You probably won't have a Fine weapon in the style of your choice at the early end of this range but by the end of it you probably will.
• Level 9-12 Exceptional - Again early in range it will probably be better than your other gear, while later it will be equal
• Level 13-16 Superior - The new crafting and upgrading rules looks to limit what can become Superior so this might have more advantage then it appears now.
• Level 17-20 Legendary? (not sure name) -This level of enchantment is probably really limited (or at least it better be, no Monty Haul please) so this will be quite valuable

I'm not seeing a problem with the power scale. Even at the 1-4 range having just draining is going to be big. Add in the cool factor and using the summoned weapons with a multi-class Wizard are going to be one of the big reasons for making that character.

 

I can see definite synergy with a Warlock - Berserker/Wizard (no sub-class) using the summoned staff that will replace the health lost due to Frenzy and to make up for the fact that you can't see your health, especially at low levels.

[Erik-Dirk]

Caster classes could get a summoned weapon proficiency which adds +2 power levels. This proficiency can be taken twice for Druid/Priest Multi-classes (Treat these classes as a pure caster for this spell)

[Skaddix]

I suppose it being equivalent isnt as bad since spells are per encounter of course you are still at a disadvantage compared to someone with a normal weapon because you have to waste the first 6-8 seconds summoning your weapon. Seems like you should be getting a better weapon still considering your weapon has a timer and causes you to stand around and do nothing at the start of every fight.

 

Also what is the point of the Conjurer Subclass if your Summoned Weapon only scales on Character Level? A weak summon that is random? That seems like a raw deal. 

[JerekKruger]

I'm not seeing a problem with the power scale. Even at the 1-4 range having just draining is going to be big. Add in the cool factor and using the summoned weapons with a multi-class Wizard are going to be one of the big reasons for making that character.

And that would be fine if you weren't spending an ability point, a spell cast and the casting time on it.

 

Personally I can't ever see myself using Concelaut's Staff or Firebrand in their current forms (Citzal's is more of an edge case). It wouldn't take much to change that though: make them scale with the Wizard's power level and make the quality enchantments come a little earlier (set it so that for a multiclass Wizard they come at the same character levels as they do now) and they'd suddenly become a lot more appealing.

[Gromnir]

The summoned weapon doesn't have to be obviously better, being merely equal at times would be enough.

 

Consider the staff:

• Level 1-4 Gets draining which you won't have from anything else at this point in the game.
• Level 5-8 Fine You probably won't have a Fine weapon in the style of your choice at the early end of this range but by the end of it you probably will.
• Level 9-12 Exceptional - Again early in range it will probably be better than your other gear, while later it will be equal
• Level 13-16 Superior - The new crafting and upgrading rules looks to limit what can become Superior so this might have more advantage then it appears now.
• Level 17-20 Legendary? (not sure name) -This level of enchantment is probably really limited (or at least it better be, no Monty Haul please) so this will be quite valuable

I'm not seeing a problem with the power scale. Even at the 1-4 range having just draining is going to be big. Add in the cool factor and using the summoned weapons with a multi-class Wizard are going to be one of the big reasons for making that character.

 

I can see definite synergy with a Warlock - Berserker/Wizard (no sub-class) using the summoned staff that will replace the health lost due to Frenzy and to make up for the fact that you can't see your health, especially at low levels.

agreed.  have a summoned weapon which equals equipable weapons is advantageous in and of itself, particular at lower levels.  if bob the warlock is equipping concelhaut's staff, then pallegina can be using the greatsword, justice.  also, those who cannot see how the summoned weapons with their unique qualities will be situational highly efficacious is revealing a stunning lack o' imagination.  each weapon has qualities which will come in handy with some frequency... and considering the duration o' the summoned weapons, the casting time issue strikes us as illusory. 

 

once again some has the problem reversed.  IF a summoned weapon were a no-brainer choice for a power slot, then there would be a problem.  situational high use and rough parity with equippable should be the goal.

 

even so, am admitting we don't see how such weapons genuine keep pace with equippable weapons, even with the quality scaling.  is the monk fists problem.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[AndreaColombo]

Well, IMO summoned weapons should really be fast cast.

 

Of course then you’d still be spending an ability point on the summoned weapons—if they are the same as any other, I’ll use any other and pick a different spell.

 

Then again, how many draining weapons shall we have? At present we don’t know—if there aren’t many, then the draining staff may have value. The blights have elemental damage types, the lance has carnage, and we’ll see the others when the game ships.

 

If they’re made fast cast, that might suffice.

[Gromnir]

additional benefit nobody has mentioned: summoned weapons is Not equipped.

 

first playthrough o' deadfire, and absent metaknowledge, being able to summon a weapon which does a different kinda damage than weapons you current have equipped is functional a free weapon set.  is no small thing particular in light of deadfire's penetration scheme.

 

keep in mind, most people only play games such as deadfire once, if they finish at all. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[KDubya]

I'd also like the summoned weapons to be instant cast or at least 3 seconds instead of 6.

 

Plus you need to remember that if you get the spell in a found Grimoire its basically free. And unlike in PoE where a free spell just saved you some money, here a free spell saves you an ability point which is massively more valuable.

 

I think Wizard multis using summoned weapons and the instant cast buffs are going to be really popular and powerful. Wizard mixed with Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, Monk or Cipher are going to be pretty interesting. Personally I'd stick with no subclass as the restrictions are pretty harsh while the benefits seem highly situational. 

[AndreaColombo]

I think Wizard multis using summoned weapons and the instant cast buffs are going to be really popular and powerful. Wizard mixed with Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, Monk or Cipher are going to be pretty interesting. Personally I'd stick with no subclass as the restrictions are pretty harsh while the benefits seem highly situational. 

 

I've been toying with a Devoted/Conjurer but your post earlier in this thread made me want to test a Berserker/Wizard instead—it's potentially a lot better, so we'll see. Insta-cast buffs and summoned weapons would indeed make for a very interesting and fun build to play.

 

I agree on the Wizard subclasses, with perhaps the exception of Enchanter who gets temporary immunity to Dexterity afflictions. Extra power level on Enchanting spells, which are essentially the majority of self buffs, is also good. Sure, you're giving up on two schools but I'll take immunity to Paralysis any time.

 

It's time for more ... experiments.

Edited December 9, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Gromnir]

 

 

Plus you need to remember that if you get the spell in a found Grimoire its basically free. And unlike in PoE where a free spell just saved you some money, here a free spell saves you an ability point which is massively more valuable.

 

 

true. given how limited is the power selection for all classes, found/1007 wizard grimoires is a major, if unpredictable, advantage. a subsequent deadfire run will amplify the benefits o' the grimoires as metaknowledge will allow for more tailored power selection.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JerekKruger]

I'd also like the summoned weapons to be instant cast or at least 3 seconds instead of 6.

 

Faster cast time would go a long way to making them more appealing to me.

 

Plus you need to remember that if you get the spell in a found Grimoire its basically free. And unlike in PoE where a free spell just saved you some money, here a free spell saves you an ability point which is massively more valuable.

 

That's a very good point. We haven't really had a chance to see how effective grimoires are going to be.

 

I think Wizard multis using summoned weapons and the instant cast buffs are going to be really popular and powerful. Wizard mixed with Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, Monk or Cipher are going to be pretty interesting.

 

Oh no doubt. I'm not sure summoned weapons, even if made instant cast, would fit in there though.

 

I agree on the Wizard subclasses, with perhaps the exception of Enchanter who gets temporary immunity to Dexterity afflictions. Extra power level on Enchanting spells, which are essentially the majority of self buffs, is also good. Sure, you're giving up on two schools but I'll take immunity to Paralysis any time.

 

The Evoker's bonus is pretty decent, although it's a bit too random for my liking. When it goes off it can be pretty devastating though.

 

It's time for more ... experiments.

 

Irenicus, is that you?

Edited December 9, 2017 by JerekKruger

[AndreaColombo]

 The Evoker's bonus is pretty decent, although it's a bit too random for my liking. When it goes off it can be pretty devastating though.

 

I agree, though if I played an Evoker, it would probably be a single-classed Wizard as Evocation spells are those that benefit the most from increased power level. For multi, I'd probably want buffs and summoned weapons instead, where power level matters less and synergy with martial classes is higher.

Edited December 9, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Dr <3]

I am pretty sad the the wizard sublass specialized in conjuring weapons at the same times forbids the self buffs...

 

When all the weapon progression will be fixed it could be fun playing a "max power lvl" wizard ( nature goodlike, right subclass, any kind of relevant item or ability) for the final conjured weapon. Probably you will be able to conjure the godhammer...

[JerekKruger]

I agree, though if I played an Evoker, it would probably be a single-classed Wizard as Evocation spells are those that benefit the most from increased power level. For multi, I'd probably want buffs and summoned weapons instead, where power level matters less and synergy with martial classes is higher.

 

Agreed. For a multiclass Wizard, particularly one who's focusing on the very fast buffs, I'd probably stick to non-subclassed. The Enchanter's bonus is nice but I'd prefer the wider spell selection.

[JerekKruger]

When all the weapon progression will be fixed...

 

They won't necessarily be fixed, or more specifically their current implementation is what Obsidian intended.

[Boeroer]

By the way: the solution of the Spirit-Lance/Carnage combo is quite good. You will deal your normal Carnage damage and the AoE of the Lance just gets added. No weird cascading side effects. Good, but not OP.

 

Although: Spirit Lance does generate a TON of focus with the AoE and has a cheesy behavior with Soul Annihilation.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Boeroer

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Can we all at least agree that the summoned weapons should be instant-cast? No longer than it takes to do a weapon switch?

[Boeroer]

I can agree to that. 6 seconds plus recovery is bad.

 

I currently like the wizard's self buffs a lot. And the only reason is because they are fast casts...

[JerekKruger]

Can we all at least agree that the summoned weapons should be instant-cast? No longer than it takes to do a weapon switch?

 

No argument from me on that front. I don't think the Priest Spiritual Weapons need anything more than that. Even if the lash isn't supposed to affect spell damage (which I suspect it's not) a 60% lash is pretty damn good.

[Boeroer]

Yes, those are pretty powerful.

 

The lance is also good enough. Since we don't know how the draining of Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff will work (maybe this time it's 50%? The ingame description doesn't give numbers) we can't say yet if it's really inferior or not.

 

I agree that Firebrand is meh compared tp the priests' faith attuned weapons at the moment. Am I wrong or did it not only loose the higher base damage but also enhanced crit damage and Damaging III?. Currently it seems it's only a scaling great sword that does burn damage as its second damage type, right? Why not give it a burning lash like the faith attuned weapons get - just to make it equally good? Maybe I missed some new gimmick it now has?

Edited December 9, 2017 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

The lance is also good enough. Since we don't know how the draining of Concenhhaut's Parasitic Staff will work (maybe this time it's 50%? THe ingame description doesn't give numbers) we can't say yet if it's really inferior or not.

 

That's true, until that's added it's hard to say for certain. I'm still not sure a 50% drain would be worth the cost of an ability point but then I was never that keen on draining in Pillars so perhaps I underestimate it.

 

I agree that Firebrand is meh compared tp the priests' faith attuned weapons at the moment. Am I wrong or did it not only loose the higher base damage but also enhanced crit damage and Damaging III?. Currently it seems it's only a scaling great sword that does burn damage as its second damage type, right? Why not give it a burning lash like the faith attuned weapons get - just to make it equally good? Maybe I missed some new gimmick it now has?

 

 

Nope, you're remembering correctly. A burning lash would seem like a good addition to it and couldn't really be called overpowered (unless the Spiritual Weapons are too).

 

As a side note I'd really like to see the Magranite and Eothasian weapons have burning lashes rather than corrosive ones, and perhaps the Wael one could have shocking (corrosive fits Berath and Skaen reasonably well).

[Boeroer]

As a side note I'd really like to see the Magranite and Eothasian weapons have burning lashes rather than corrosive ones, and perhaps the Wael one could have shocking (corrosive fits Berath and Skaen reasonably well).

I thought that they just didn't fine tune that yet and it's just a beta-thing that all the faith attuned weapons have a corrosive lash instead of a fitting one.

 

I'm still not sure a 50% drain would be worth the cost of an ability point but then I was never that keen on draining in Pillars so perhaps I underestimate it.

It will be more effective in Deadfire because there is no endurance/health system anymore. If it provides good healing (think of Sneak Attack + draining) this may be very useful.

[AndreaColombo]

There’s a sickle in the game’s resources; presumably Xoti’s, since that’s the only sickle we know about. It scales with level and has a property called something like “Faith Attuned” which adds a 60% corrosive lash. Looks like that’s the priestly Weapon thing in Deadfire.

 

Sickle model looks pretty good, by the way.