The Little Things That Got "lost In Translation"

[Spider]

Thirdly, it is not opinion that skills are almost useless in KotOR, its fact.  If you choose to use them, it doesn't change the fact that they're almost useless.  The fact that you don't need to use skills to succesfully play through KotOR is what makes them useless.  Just because  you say it is opinion doesn't make it so.

From Dictionary.com:

 

Useless

1: Being or having no beneficial use; futile or ineffective.

2: Incapable of functioning or assisting; ineffectual: He panics easily and is useless in an emergency.

 

Funny, none of these applies to skills in KotOR. Maybe they weren't NEEDED to complete the game, but they were far from useless. In fact through the two times I played the game I used pretty much all the skills several times. So much for that fact.

 

Go ahead, try to play KotOR without spending any of your skill points.  You don't need skills, therefore, they're useless.  Not opinion, FACT.

 

If everything you don't NEED to beat the game is useless there are a LOT of things in the game that are useless. I'm pretty sure I can make a character that won't use a single force power nor a lightsabre throughout the entire game and still beat it. Does that make lightsabres or force powers useless?

 

Fourthly, who said Sentinels were underpowered?  I said they weren't balanced.  That is also fact.

What's the difference between unbalanced (in a negative fashion) and underpowered? To me they mean the exact same thing, ie less powerful than the norm. So what am I missing?

 

Actually, it is my opinion that the guardian is the least effective.  Nice assumption, though.  I think the sentinel is just the least powerful, not the least effective.

 

Now I'm curious. The sentinel is the least powerful class, but not the least effective. In my mind the character that has the easiest time beating the game would also be the most powerful. So to me effectiveness = power. Obviously not to you, so would you care to enlighten me what your definition of powerful vs effective is?

[Volourn]

2 feats - Problem that is you only really need 1, or 2 combat styles to have a solid combat oriented character.

 

+5 bab - on the surface +25% helps a lot; however outside of Malak basiclaly every oppoent has a relatively easy ac to hit. Not to mention, you dpon't reach 20th level Guardian in the game - usually around 12th level or so unless you "cheat" by holding abck from levelling up (another dumb mistake BIO made in the game).

 

I find them baalanced. And, comparing my play throughs (once with a Sentinel and the other with Consular) I had a much easier time with my Sentinel and that's despite it being my first time through so I didn't know all the nunaces of the system to twink the character even better.

 

Anyways, it's not a big deal. Sentinels,a nd Guardians, and Consualrs can all survive together.

 

I do find it funny you just white wash everyone in that's thread's opinion by stating they're moot just because it differs from yours. Not too surprising espicially since you've often accused me of doing the same thing. heh.

 

Spider wins. (it's too bad he's a BIO fanboy and he useless silly logic).

[Spider]

Spider wins. (it's too bad he's a BIO fanboy and he useless silly logic).

BIO fanboy? I'm almost insulted. I'm a BIS fanboy dammit!

[Shadowstrider]

OK, admittedly, useless was not the best term. I should've said, unnecesary.

 

As for unbalanced and underpowered, its fairly simple. Underpowered means it does not have sufficient power to win. Unbalanced means it is not equal/balanced with the other like classes.

 

Straight melee, is what I found to be the least effective. Since Sentinels have more force points, I found them more effective. Thats opinion, but I already said that. Least powerful, because the major draw of the sentinel is its skills. Since skills are unnecessary, the draw of the sentinel is decreased, and less powerful.

 

You can have something VERY powerful, but not at all effective. Likewise, you can have something VERY effective, but not all that powerful.

[Shadowstrider]

Volourn, the reason I, and almost everyone, say you almost only use opinion is because, *gasp* you do almost only use opinion. Not to mention you skirt issues with opinion, and declare it the defining factor. Its illogic.

 

The few times you do post "facts" to support your claims, you most often do not provide any numbers, or links, or quotes.

[Volourn]

Spider: Almost? I'll try harder next time.

 

As Spider pointed out that would make a lot of things in the game "uneccessary". That would include; but not limited to lightsabres, the other asosorted melkee wepaons, missle weapons, and force powers. Weird... All that shows is that there are many ways to approach the game. Hmm..

 

And, skill points weren't the greates draw for me when it came to Sentinels so once again you give an opinion like it was fact. It was mostly because they are the "most balanced' of the three Jedi classes instead of being an extreme . As in Guardian (pure phsyical combat) or Consualr (pure force power). Not to mention, the immunities were also a thing I eyed.

 

Please, Strider, we were being civil; but now youa re flat out lying. Quote every single post of mine that you have ever read on every single forum to back that accusation up. Tnanks for obliging ahead of time.

[Judge Hades]

OPinions and facts, they aren't that difficult to discern. Any 8th grader could do it. Just because Volourn states his opinions without the "in your opinion" line doesn't mean he is trying to spout if off as fact. I know I certaily don't.

 

If you don't agree with his opinions state your own. OPinions battling each other is fun to watch.

[Volourn]

Espicially since "the Sentinel is the least powerful" is very much an opinion.

[Spider]

OK, admittedly, useless was not the best term. I should've said, unnecesary.

 

As for unbalanced and underpowered, its fairly simple. Underpowered means it does not have sufficient power to win. Unbalanced means it is not equal/balanced with the other like classes.

 

Straight melee, is what I found to be the least effective. Since Sentinels have more force points, I found them more effective. Thats opinion, but I already said that. Least powerful, because the major draw of the sentinel is its skills. Since skills are unnecessary, the draw of the sentinel is decreased, and less powerful.

 

You can have something VERY powerful, but not at all effective. Likewise, you can have something VERY effective, but not all that powerful.

Unnecessary I can agree with. But as I said, that is true for most options in the game. The fact of the matter is the game isn't all that difficult and you can probably create a pretty nerfed character and still beat it.

 

Your definition of underpowered (I saw the post containing it after I made mine) is quite different to mine. To me underpowered means less powerful than the norm. Unbalanced means either more or less powerful than the norm depending on context. In this context oviosly less powerful. So to me underpowered and unbalanced is the same.

 

Debating is useless unless everyone uses the same definitions. So I won't use underpowered anymore.

 

Now then, is the Sentinel unbalanced? I actually don't think so. My first playthrough was as a Scoundrel going Sentinel and while I kinda messed up some when choosing levels (didn't realize how useless ranged weapons would be for instance) had I planned the character a bit better I would have gotten all the feats and forcepowers I needed. Having more than one feat that increases your damage potential is rather redundant anyways. In my mind redundant feats < skills.

 

Maybe the consulars are more powerful though since force powers really is what it's all about and more force points do help quite a lot. More force points makes battles easier but on the other hand skills allows you to avoid a lot of battles so it evens out a little. In the end I like skills because they give you options. And they're fun.

[Shadowstrider]

OPinions and facts, they aren't that difficult to discern. Any 8th grader could do it. Just because Volourn states his opinions without the "in your opinion" line doesn't mean he is trying to spout if off as fact. I know I certaily don't.

 

If you don't agree with his opinions state your own. OPinions battling each other is fun to watch.

No its not, its how trouble starts. You'de know, your friends at the codex prove this.

 

Debating opinion is bad news... of course this is my opinion, so lets debate it...

 

Espicially since "the Sentinel is the least powerful" is very much an opinion.

 

No its not. Though I could see how you could confuse it.

[Judge Hades]

The problem with the Codex is that a good chunk of them, though not all of them, insult and flame those who don't share their opinions. That is when it goes too far. If a battle of opinions can happen without flaming and insult flinging, that is when it is fun.

[Volourn]

Yeah... It seems Im not the only one 'confusing" your so-called "factual opinion" Sorry, Strdier, youa re suing your opinions and pretending theya re fact. Just like your backpedalling on calling skills useless. Continue to spin as you will; but "Sentinel is the least powerful" is very much an opinion. In Scientifc terms, at best it be consdiered a theory; and not a law. (hope; i got that right since it's been awhile since I delved into scientific lingo :D )

 

Let's take a closer look at your quote: "I think the sentinel is just the least powerful, not the least effective."

 

THINK? You think? Think about something you say is supposedly fact? LMAO

 

The fact you use the word think is a subconcious acknowledgement that it is just an opinion that you try to guise as fact. Shame on you.

 

It's embarassing that your own words defy your illogical "factual opinion". Hmm..

 

 

Enjoy.

[Shadowstrider]

Unnecessary I can agree with. But as I said, that is true for most options in the game. The fact of the matter is the game isn't all that difficult and you can probably create a pretty nerfed character and still beat it.

Sure. Which is why the sentinel is not underpowered(i.e. insufficient).

 

Your definition of underpowered (I saw the post containing it after I made mine) is quite different to mine. To me underpowered means less powerful than the norm. Unbalanced means either more or less powerful than the norm depending on context. In this context oviosly less powerful. So to me underpowered and unbalanced is the same.

 

I do not equate power to balance. You could be balanced, but still underpowered(insufficient). In this case, the sentinel is not balanced with the other classes, but is still powerful enough.

 

Now then, is the Sentinel unbalanced? I actually don't think so.

I don't understand how you can say this, then say this:

 

Maybe the consulars are more powerful though since force powers really is what it's all about and more force points do help quite a lot. More force points makes battles easier but on the other hand skills allows you to avoid a lot of battles so it evens out a little. In the end I like skills because they give you options. And they're fun.

 

It WOULD make sense, IF there weren't enough computer spikes in game to have 0 ranks in the skill, and still "hack da gibson" and avoid battles. If the consular has advantages, and access to the Sentinel's ability to avoid battles, hows it balanced?

[Shadowstrider]

Yeah... It seems Im not the only one 'confusing" your so-called "factual opinion" Sorry, Strdier, youa re suing your opinions and pretending theya re fact. Just like your backpedalling on calling skills useless. Continue to spin as you will; but "Sentinel is the least powerful" is very much an opinion. In Scientifc terms, at best it be consdiered a theory; and not a law. (hope; i got that right since it's been awhile since I delved into scientific lingo :D )

 

Let's take a closer look at your quote: "I think the sentinel is just the least powerful, not the least effective."

 

THINK? You think? Think about something you say is supposedly fact? LMAO

 

The fact you use the word think is a subconcious acknowledgement that it is just an opinion that you try to guise as fact. Shame on you.

 

It's embarassing that your own words defy your illogical "factual opinion". Hmm..

 

 

Enjoy.

What are you talking about?

 

I already acknowledged that "I think the sentinel is just the least powerful, not the least effective." was opinion.

 

I also noted, thats not what I was debating. If you'de flip your brain on, you might realize this.

[Volourn]

And, your opinion that the Sentinel is unbalanced is just that - an opinion. Nothing more; nothing less. We aren't going to get very far as long as you try your best to make your opinions seem like facts when they are not.

 

the afct youa re too busy flaming to admit to that just proves your point that what you say is fact is very weak.

[Shadowstrider]

And, your opinion that the Sentinel is unbalanced is just that - an opinion. Nothing more; nothing less. We aren't going to get very far as long as you try your best to make your opinions seem like facts when they are not.

 

the afct youa re too busy flaming to admit to that just proves your point that what you say is fact is very weak.

Balance is not opinion.

"A state of equilibrium or parity characterized by cancellation of all forces by equal opposing forces."

 

Sentinel is not balanced because it relied on skill points to balance out itself with the other jedi classes. Since the skills system is unecessary, skills are not balanced. Forcepowers are necessary to win(consular), and combat is necessary to win(guardian), skills are not(sentinel). Not balanced. Not opinion.

[Spider]

Now then, is the Sentinel unbalanced? I actually don't think so.

 

I don't understand how you can say this, then say this:

 

Maybe the consulars are more powerful though since force powers really is what it's all about and more force points do help quite a lot. More force points makes battles easier but on the other hand skills allows you to avoid a lot of battles so it evens out a little. In the end I like skills because they give you options. And they're fun.

It WOULD make sense, IF there weren't enough computer spikes in game to have 0 ranks in the skill, and still "hack da gibson" and avoid battles. If the consular has advantages, and access to the Sentinel's ability to avoid battles, hows it balanced?

 

Because there are more skills than hacking and because I didn't find that many spikes. Comparing my first playthrough with my second I found that computer made a HUGE difference (I maxed it the second time). And I picked up every spike I could find.

 

Anyway, it's all pretty moot since even if there were enough spikes in the game it doesn't necessary mean it's the Sentinel that's unbalanced, I'd rather argue that it's the consular that is unbalanced (as in overpowered, my definition). Comparing the three classes I'd say the Sentinel is the norm (ie balanced), the guardian is underpowered (my definition) and the consular is MAYBE slightly overpowered (again, my definition).

 

As for balance vs power, I think the two terms are fairly interchangeable (in the context of a computer game). But it's already been established we have different definitions of what underpowered means so arguing about it is fairly moot.

[Spider]

Sentinel is not balanced because it relied on skill points to balance out itself with the other jedi classes. Since the skills system is unecessary, skills are not balanced. Forcepowers are necessary to win(consular), and combat is necessary to win(guardian), skills are not(sentinel). Not balanced. Not opinion.

I'm pretty certain I can make a consular that won't use it's force powers and still beat the game. So that would make that class unbalanced as well.

 

I also think I can make a guardian without using any of the additional feats it gets and still beat the game, so by your definition that class would also be unbalanced.

[Shadowstrider]

Sentinels get 1 skill point per level more. The MP and HP is balanced, because it is supposed to be the "intermediary" class. The have the same BAB as a consular. Other then that they get three immunities, fear, stun, and paralysis.

 

The immunities are the hardest to gauge. Since the average jedi level is 12-14. That ensures that they get all their immunities. However, another reason it can be seen they were not properly balanced is that the immunities stop at level 12. Another should've been issued @ 18, to follow the 1/6 levels progression. Consular and Guardians continue to get bonus abilities jedi levels higher then 12, the sentinel does not.

[Shadowstrider]

Sentinel is not balanced because it relied on skill points to balance out itself with the other jedi classes.  Since the skills system is unecessary, skills are not balanced.  Forcepowers are necessary to win(consular), and combat is necessary to win(guardian), skills are not(sentinel).  Not balanced.  Not opinion.

I'm pretty certain I can make a consular that won't use it's force powers and still beat the game. So that would make that class unbalanced as well.

 

I also think I can make a guardian without using any of the additional feats it gets and still beat the game, so by your definition that class would also be unbalanced.

If you can finish the game without using a force power(which is an improper test), I'de be surprised.

 

There is more to the guardian then the bonus feats. It stregth is combat, not the 2 extra feats it gets, alone. It can deal 2 more damage per hit, and hit 25% more of the time.

 

The consular's strength is that its force powers can be very, very difficult to resist, and used more often. Since it hits as often as the sentinel, it is as good in combat as the sentinel. What makes the sentinel poorly balanced is the reliance on the skill point for balance, and that its immunities stop growing at 12, for the most part(saves till grow).

[Spider]

The consular's strength is that its force powers can be very, very difficult to resist, and used more often. Since it hits as often as the sentinel, it is as good in combat as the sentinel. What makes the sentinel poorly balanced is the reliance on the skill point for balance, and that its immunities stop growing at 12, for the most part(saves till grow).

If you can finish the game without using a force power(which is an improper test), I'de be surprised.

My first playthrough I didn't use any forcepowers during the last fight because I didn't have any that would matter. Maybe I had Speed when I think about it, but with a better built character I could do without it.

 

There is more to the guardian then the bonus feats.  It stregth is combat, not the 2 extra feats it gets, alone.  It can deal 2 more damage per hit, and hit 25% more of the time.

 

Well, I can't very well make a character that goes through the game without fighting since that isn't an option in the game and I can't very well make the other bonuses go away, so I used the possible example.

 

BTW, your math is way off. +5 BAB does NOT translate into hitting 25% more of the time. I don't know how far BAB goes for different characters nor do I know the AC for late game enemies, but I do know my Sentinel didn't miss 1 of every 4 attacks (except maybe vs Malak, but I wouldn't even bet on that). Also the two extra damage per hit is fairly useless in the late game.

 

The consular's strength is that its force powers can be very, very difficult to resist, and used more often.  Since it hits as often as the sentinel, it is as good in combat as the sentinel.  What makes the sentinel poorly balanced is the reliance on the skill point for balance, and that its immunities stop growing at 12, for the most part(saves till grow).

 

Here's the kicker: You can use your force powers more often and they are more effective which makes combat easier. With a lot of skills you can often find a way around combat (and not only by hacking) which also makes the game easier. That's called balance...

 

Now in a character on character fight I guess the consular may have the edge, but the immunities could very well make it the other way around depending on what force powers the consular uses.

[Shadowstrider]

BTW, your math is way off. +5 BAB does NOT translate into hitting 25% more of the time. I don't know how far BAB goes for different characters nor do I know the AC for late game enemies, but I do know my  Sentinel didn't miss 1 of every 4 attacks (except maybe vs Malak, but I wouldn't even bet on that). Also the two extra damage per hit is fairly useless in the late game.

I didn't say you would miss 25% of the time with a consular/sentinel. I said the +5 to BAB means the guardian has 25% more of a chance to hit.

 

I don't know how you can say 2 additional damage a round is useless... especially since if you're only making 1 attack a round I cannot see you beating uber-cheesed Malak. Its +2 damage per ATTACK. If you have a double-bladed saber, 2 weapons you have 2 attacks. If you use flurry, you get another, at an expense to attack rolls(where the +5 BAB helps). If you use speed, you get an additional attack(or is it 2, at master speed? I forget). If you're using all of those, you would have 4-5 attacks, which is 8-10 additional damage a round, not 2.

 

Here's the kicker: You can use your force powers more often and they are more effective which makes combat easier. With a lot of skills you can often find a way around combat (and not only by hacking) which also makes the game easier. That's called balance...

 

Assuming that the consular cannot/won't use the same console to the same effect. Besides, the sentinel only gets 1 point more per level, and since computer use isn't a class skill(unless I'm mistaken), the difference is neglible. It goes back to, the fact that skills are not necessary, while combat IS, and force powers are(if you beat the game without a single force power, I am very, very, very, very impressed, I could never have beaten Malak without force speed.).

[Volourn]

Weird... My Sentinel didn't even have force speed. Didn't bother with it as I wore armour. Hmm..

[Shadowstrider]

Weird... My Sentinel didn't even have force speed. Didn't bother with it as I wore armour. Hmm..

Relevance?

[Spider]

I didn't say you would miss 25% of the time with a consular/sentinel.  I said the +5 to BAB means the guardian has 25% more of a chance to hit.

You said it's make him hit +25% of the time. Regardless, you don't get a +25% chance to hit either, since it's not a scale to 20. ACs in the end game would be somewhere areound 35, right?

 

I'm just saying I didn't notice my character missing much without that bonus, so I don't know how important it is.

 

I don't  know how you can say 2 additional damage a round is useless... especially since if you're only making 1 attack a round I cannot see you beating uber-cheesed Malak.  Its +2 damage per ATTACK.  If you have a double-bladed saber, 2 weapons you have 2 attacks.  If you use flurry, you get another, at an expense to attack rolls(where the +5 BAB helps).  If you use speed, you get an additional attack(or is it 2, at master speed?  I forget).  If you're using all of those, you would have 4-5 attacks, which is 8-10 additional damage a round, not 2.

 

I never said 2 damage per round, I said 2 damage per hit. And I still feel it's a pretty small amount when you do something like 15-20 (or more) damage per hit anyway.

 

Anyway, I never had a character with only 1 attack when facing Malak. Don't you get additional attacks when your BAB increases? Regardless, I always dual-wielded and had speed so it doesn't matter.

 

But I could definitely beat Malak without anything that gives me more attacks. Just use dark Jedi Powers such as Drain Life on the guys replenishing Malak and he won't be able to. He's not so tough when you only have to kill him once.

 

Assuming that the consular cannot/won't use the same console to the same effect.  Besides, the sentinel only gets 1 point more per level, and since computer use isn't a class skill(unless I'm mistaken), the difference is neglible.  It goes back to, the fact that skills are not necessary, while combat IS, and force powers are(if you beat the game without a single force power, I  am very, very, very, very impressed, I could never have beaten Malak without force speed.).

 

I said other skills than hacking were helpful to. So the additional skillpoint IS significant.

 

The only thing that is necessary in the game is combat and all classes can fight. You don't NEED the bonuses from being a guardian as much as they help in the same way you don't NEED extra skillpoints. Nor do you NEED additional force points because guess what? The other classes can still use theirs. Having more force points makes the game easier, but so does having more skill points. I really don't see the difference here.

 

To prove the point I really don't have to beat Malak using no force powers I only have to do it without using the extra force points a consular has and no powers that require a save. Which I have done. Twice. So the bonuses a Consular gets are obviously UNNECESSARY since I can beat the game without them.

 

But to hammer the point down even further I'm 100% convinced I could beat Malak without suing force powers at all. I would too if I didn't have to play through the entire game to do it which I'm not inclined to do.

 

The character would be something like this:

 

Scoundrel 6/Consular (to prove the point even further) 14

 

High Strength and Con (like 20 and 16 or so), 10 in all mental stats and as much dex as you can get after that.

 

As good armor as you can get.

 

Feats like lightsabre proficiency, dual wield, flurry, implants (to get even higher strength) etc etc...

 

Once you reach Malak you just take pretty much every drug you can get your hands on (the battle drugs that give bonus to hit and damage, +4 strength, +4 con, +4 dex) and the most powerful shield that protects against energy.

 

Then just kick Malak's ass and once he runs to heal, you heal yourself as well. The shield will need to be renewed every time he runs off and the drugs about every other time, so try and take up a position that will make him run as far as possible between ecah round.

 

An optimized version of this build would of course be Soldier/Guardian, but it shouldn't be necessary.