Insane elmshore difficulty spike and questions about party composition

[jeffotron]

This is my first playthrough of the game after hearing about the deadfire hype and I spent a while looking through the build guides to come up with a party that has been pretty great up to this point. Playing on hard difficulty. Got down to level 15 of Od Nua with my party at character level 9 and got brutalized by the Adra dragon which I'm fine with, I got the sense that was an end game boss option so I'll save it for later. By the time I was ready to move on to Elmshore I was character level 11, chose to scale the difficulty, and now I can't seem to beat the first encounter of that map, full party wipe after multiple attempts. The first encounter I run into is the set of Adra beetles, forest lurkers, and 3 adragons just to the south of the entrance. For reference my party is as follows:

 

• PC - wizard following the zeblastian blaster wizard guide modified to be a wood elf instead for a little less glass cannon-ness. Great for cc and is responsible for the majority of the party damage output. 
• Eder - 2H off tank that I usually use as a back line disrupter modeled off the 0-recovery variant of the lady of pain build. Second most damaging character in the party. Pretty durable too but mobility is an issue (hopefully improved with the charge talent).
• Pallegina - tank support more or less modeled off the counselor ploi build. Meh. I think she's probably contributing a lot passively but the charm cc utility is nonexistent thanks to her being a godlike without munacra arret or any of the other charm items and some of the other key support abilities from the guide are inaccessible since she's not a shieldbearer. I use her sworn enemy skill to help with scrolls of paralysis and confusion on high priority targets.  
• Kana - tank and aoe damage based on the drake ambassader build. Dragon chant is amazing. 
• Durance - priest support based on the fire priest build but rarely casts damaging stuff because fights are usually over by the time support spells are cast
• Grieving mother - meh. cipher. Not many builds to go on here, basically following Mr. Speedo since the retaliation cipher listed is defunct and the other boerer guide is for dueling ciphers. The Mr. Speedo one hardly qualifies since it's basically just attributes and talents. Using the persistence bow now, planning on using the stormcaller bow later and we'll see if that helps but since it's in the expansion content it feels like obtaining it is a long way off.  I've had a hard time generating focus with her and she is not at all impactful right now. Usually get maybe one 5th or 6th level cast out of her in the mid to late phase of a fight. 

General approach with fights up to now: position pallegina and kana out in front to draw aggro, position eder on a wing to fold around to back line and start locking down a caster/ranger, position durance, GM, PC in back line. Durance starts buffing usually with bless, inspiring radiance, debuff with interdiction + painful interdiction, buff with dire blessing or devotions for the faithful as needed. Cipher autoattacks to build focus for cc/damage as needed. PC autoattacks and casts cc as needed. I tried to pick a group composition that has a good mix of all the main roles (tank, support, aoe dmg, single target dmg, cc/disruption) with a minimum of micromanagement and like I said, up to now things have been going really well. I don't mind microing one to two characters but a full party of 6 requiring that level of care is a little tedious. I picked the wiz as my main character because I figured it would be the most impactful and so far it is but I probably wouldn't in a future playthrough since he's so good on autoattack with occasional spell casting. Probably pick a high micro character in the future so at least when I'm managing the character it feels like I'm playing me. If that makes sense. 

 

So my questions:

1. Was it a huge mistake to upscale the challenge? I enjoy the harder fights but wasn't expecting to get massacred quite so badly with what was basically my first trash mob encounter.
2. Is there a way to get more out of ciphers? I know they're much loved by many of the common forum contributors but so far it's a class that I haven't been able to get much use out of.
3. Is there a better class/build for the back line disruptor role? Eder equipped with the blade of the endless paths does tons of damage when he finally gets to the back line but he can only lock down one target at a time and takes a while to get there.
4. Any strategies for enemy adragons or druids in general? This is the main enemy class that has wrecked me throughout the playthrough (way worse than wizards which I wasn't expecting given how damaging my PC is). The druid ogres in od nua, the adragons with the adra dragon, the adragons in my most recent encounters, and to a lesser extent the menpgwas all have been challenging encounters. Especially if that damn storm spell gets cast. And the dominates. And some mass paralyze spell I have yet to figure out the identify of. Ugh.

Quite a bit of text. Thanks to anyone willing to read and offer criticism. 

[Jojobobo]

You can get to Twins Elms without taking any of the Elmshore mobs, so you can always do that, quest, and then come back stronger - it's what I did but then again I was playing solo.

 

For Adragans, Prayer Against Imprisonment makes you immune to Petrification, so slap that on whoever you have with high Dex, high Int and low armor (plus the necessary Lore) and that makes things a lot easier. Either that or strongly buff Fort on your tanks to try and save against it (you can get Looped Rope that increases your defence against it in WM Pt II). Adragans are also pretty frail, so if you can Dominate/Charm them quickly their own group usually takes them out (using Ring of Changing Heart, Munacra Arret or the Spirit Spiral to get some charges) - again slap them on a high Int high Dex guy to fire it off as soon as possible.

 

For Druids, I think I usually focused on charming them too TBH.

[MaxQuest]

Was it a huge mistake to upscale the challenge? I enjoy the harder fights but wasn't expecting to get massacred quite so badly with what was basically my first trash mob encounter.

Naa, challenge is fun)

 

On the other hand, upscalling Elmshore was added such that you won't feel it too easy after WM1.

So if you want a more comfortable ride, wait for lvl 11 or 13.

 

Depending on party composition it can be done earlier, but your team doesn't feel optimized enough to me.

 

Is there a way to get more out of ciphers? I know they're much loved by many of the common forum contributors but so far it's a class that I haven't been able to get much use out of.

Oh yes there is.

The problem is that for cipher to really shine, he must be placed in... a specific environment.

I have been mentioning for quite awhile that there are two good approaches in PoE1 to party composition:

v1. soft cc + sturdy party. The idea is to make enemies mostly miss and graze vs higher DR, and killing enemies over time (mainly via dragon trashed and sacred immolation), while they try to scratch you.

v2. hard cc + high-dps. The idea is to lock-down enemies completely, and dispatch them while they cannot retaliate.

 

Ciphers generally prefer the second style. High dps means that more damage will be dealt in the same time-window that cc offers. It also allows to build focus faster, which allows them to cc even more, which allows them safely to deal more damage, which allows to build focus faster... you got the idea. It's a virtuous cycle.

Also they like when there is a second cipher in the party, because being usually built for cc and dps, they are quite frail and need someone to take enemies of them in case of emergency, and who can do this better if not another cipher?

 

As for Grieving Mother there are only two (apparent to me) ways you can built her effectively. First one is: give her Rain of Goddath warbow + Penetrating Shots + a few DAoM potions and try to achieve zero recovery. If you want you can open up with one shot from Lead Spitter, and switch to warbow after that. Also you can use Angio's Gambeson for the DAoM enchant. Use it in one fight, and switch to a good hide armor (wayfarer or maneha's) after combat end and till the next rest.

 

Another variant would be make her a melee cipher. Sanguine plate (prior to lvl 13) + Blade of the Endless Paths. Prior to lvl 12, you can also use Tidefall and Firebrand.

Tbh GM has really nice stats for such a cipher. Also she can work nicely in a roaming tandem with Eder. She paralyzes a target, and they hit it together, additionally Eder can knockdown anyone who threatens her in melee.

 

Any strategies for enemy adragons or druids in general?

Imho, it's a good idea to charm enemy druids, and paralyze/prone their adragans. That's the job of your cipher + wizard (slicken, shadowflame, call to slumber, gaze of adragan; and if there are too many enemies: mass confusion). And Painful Interdiction should help in landing all this stuff. Edited December 3, 2017 by MaxQuest

[jeffotron]

You can get to Twins Elms without taking any of the Elmshore mobs, so you can always do that, quest, and then come back stronger - it's what I did but then again I was playing solo.

 

For Adragans, Prayer Against Imprisonment makes you immune to Petrification, so slap that on whoever you have with high Dex, high Int and low armor (plus the necessary Lore) and that makes things a lot easier. Either that or strongly buff Fort on your tanks to try and save against it (you can get Looped Rope that increases your defence against it in WM Pt II). Adragans are also pretty frail, so if you can Dominate/Charm them quickly their own group usually takes them out (using Ring of Changing Heart, Munacra Arret or the Spirit Spiral to get some charges) - again slap them on a high Int high Dex guy to fire it off as soon as possible.

 

For Druids, I think I usually focused on charming them too TBH.

 

Alright, so quicker focus on cc and try to anticipate enemy cc. Makes me wonder how the heck anyone does a playthrough without a priest in the party. 

 

 

Was it a huge mistake to upscale the challenge? I enjoy the harder fights but wasn't expecting to get massacred quite so badly with what was basically my first trash mob encounter.

Naa, challenge is fun)

 

On the other hand, upscalling Elmshore was added such that you won't feel it too easy after WM1.

So if you want a more comfortable ride, wait for lvl 11 or 13.

 

Depending on party composition it can be done earlier, but your team doesn't feel optimized enough to me.

 

Is there a way to get more out of ciphers? I know they're much loved by many of the common forum contributors but so far it's a class that I haven't been able to get much use out of.

Oh yes there is.

The problem is that for cipher to really shine, he must be placed in... a specific environment.

I have been mentioning for quite awhile that there are two good approaches in PoE1 to party composition:

v1. soft cc + sturdy party. The idea is to make enemies mostly miss and graze vs higher DR, and killing enemies over time (mainly via dragon trashed and sacred immolation), while they try to scratch you.

v2. hard cc + high-dps. The idea is to lock-down enemies completely, and dispatch them while they cannot retaliate.

 

Ciphers generally prefer the second style. High dps means that more damage will be dealt in the same time-window that cc offers. It also allows to build focus faster, which allows them to cc even more, which allows them safely to deal more damage, which allows to build focus faster... you got the idea. It's a virtuous cycle.

Also they like when there is a second cipher in the party, because being usually built for cc and dps, they are quite frail and need someone to take enemies of them in case of emergency, and who can do this better if not another cipher?

 

As for Grieving Mother there are only two (apparent to me) ways you can built her effectively. First one is: give her Rain of Goddath warbow + Penetrating Shots + a few DAoM potions and try to achieve zero recovery. If you want you can open up with one shot from Lead Spitter, and switch to warbow after that. Also you can use Angio's Gambeson for the DAoM enchant. Use it in one fight, and switch to a good hide armor (wayfarer or maneha's) after combat end and till the next rest.

 

Another variant would be make her a melee cipher. Sanguine plate (prior to lvl 13) + Blade of the Endless Paths. Prior to lvl 12, you can also use Tidefall and Firebrand.

Tbh GM has really nice stats for such a cipher. Also she can work nicely in a roaming tandem with Eder. She paralyzes a target, and they hit it together, additionally Eder can knockdown anyone who threatens her in melee.

 

Any strategies for enemy adragons or druids in general?

Imho, it's a good idea to charm enemy druids, and paralyze/prone their adragans. That's the job of your cipher + wizard (slicken, shadowflame, call to slumber, gaze of adragan; and if there are too many enemies: mass confusion). And Painful Interdiction should help in landing all this stuff.

 

Re: upscaled difficulty, I did some browsing in the forum and found the post that talked about the content order. I had always figured the expansion content was supposed to be done after completing the main game but pretty much everyone was saying to start it around the end of act II if not sooner so I'll head that way and hopefully when I get back the scaling will feel more fluid.

 

It really seems like the cipher skills are more suited to a melee range character with the annoyance of targeting antipathetic field from the back line and all the buffs to defense available from their spells, but I couldn't really find a build for that and I still don't know enough about mechanics and how to get more out of equips to make my own build. Your advice about the plate and weapon is helpful although I haven't found any of those except the blade of the endless paths currently equipped by Eder. 

 

I started this playthrough as a warmup so that I would know enough about the major fights and flow of the game so I could do a path of the damned playthrough. Do you think that difficulty forces you to more towards version 1 or version 2 of your party playstyle?

 

It seems like with how I built my party it's kind of a mix between the two, although version 2 sounds more fun. Do you have a party composition that suits the version 2 playstyle you would recommend?

[MaxQuest]

Re: upscaled difficulty, I did some browsing in the forum and found the post that talked about the content order. I had always figured the expansion content was supposed to be done after completing the main game but pretty much everyone was saying to start it around the end of act II if not sooner so I'll head that way and hopefully when I get back the scaling will feel more fluid.

Yeap, it makes sense todo WM1 before Elmshore.

Usually I'd go to Stalwart at level 7 if I don't want to upscale, or at level 9 if I do.

 

Have to notice through: sometimes it makes sense to go to Elmshore realyl early, provided you are not going to fight, and just want to run through, in order to get to Hearthsong Market (if your builds require those items)

 

It really seems like the cipher skills are more suited to a melee range character with the annoyance of targeting antipathetic field from the back line and all the buffs to defense available from their spells, but I couldn't really find a build for that and I still don't know enough about mechanics and how to get more out of equips to make my own build.

Cipher is good both ranged and melee. But he requires supervision and backup in either case.

 

Your advice about the plate and weapon is helpful although I haven't found any of those except the blade of the endless paths currently equipped by Eder.

You can get Sanguine Plate as early as uhm, level 6 in Defiance Bay.

As for Eder, you can give him Tidefall, because he can make great use of both of those weapons, while GM (if you make her melee) can't.

 

YI started this playthrough as a warmup so that I would know enough about the major fights and flow of the game so I could do a path of the damned playthrough. Do you think that difficulty forces you to more towards version 1 or version 2 of your party playstyle?

Currently, both playstyles are good. And it really comes to your personal preference.

 

What I like in cc-and-dps, is that even if enemy accuracy would get increased by 15-30 more, I wouldn't care much. Plus it's somewhat faster to finish combat.

But on the con side, it requires more supervision.

 

It seems like with how I built my party it's kind of a mix between the two, although version 2 sounds more fun. Do you have a party composition that suits the version 2 playstyle you would recommend?

My last run was with:

frontline: dps barb, mt/damage-dealing chanter, cc cipher

midline: moon godlike fire priest

backline: blast/cc wizard, dps/cc cipher

 

You can check their damage contribution and a few videos: here.

 

For the next run though, I am thinking of a slightly slower but more laid back party:

frontline: offtank/damage-dealing chanter, mt/supp paladin, control-freak wizard (2 mig, 1h&shield, plate, infuse vitality, and all cc spells)

midline: moon godlike fire priest

backline: cc/dps cipher, dps/cc cipher

Edited December 5, 2017 by MaxQuest

[jeffotron]

Great info, thanks. One last question, the video was great and I like to occasionally watch vids of other people to get some perspective on play style, easy to do with other games like path of exile (abyss league hype!). Any other good channels/video series based on recent patches, especially from the other big contributors (boerer, jojobobo, andrea, etc)? Nerdcommando is the only other one I found with any structure to it but his guides are a bit dated, a little...tunnel-visioned, and light on showing actual content. 

[MaxQuest]

Any other good channels/video series based on recent patches

Tbh, I don't quite look for videos. I prefer mech info presented in static images and textual form mostly. And for playstyle... pillars is not really that entertaining to look from aside)

 

But you can check: Wodjee, Victor Creed and Kaylon

Edited December 6, 2017 by MaxQuest