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Health vs. Endurance/Health


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#81
eisenschwein

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My preference still lies with the endurance/health system from POE1 as well and I can't see the current one in the Beta doing things better in any way. If anything it does things worse than POE1 with the often mentioned

a. fixed number of injuries and
b. the missing strategic component of balancing and maintaining short-term endurance vs. mid-term/long-term health.

I also wouldn't know (yet) how to bring back b. without completely replacing the current one with the endurance/health system from POE1, which of course would be the most preferable solution, but for a. it may be merely a matter of very minor GUI redesign with a small change to how one of the primary attributes affects the max count of injuries.

As already suggested by @eisenschwein and others it would only make sense to let Constitution control how many injuries a character can receive before dying.

My suggestion:

Increase the max injury count by 1 every 2nd point in Constitution.

Starting from:

CON 1 -> max injury limit: 1
CON 3 -> max injury limit: 2 (CON 3 was the lowest you could go in POE1, I believe it's still the same in the Beta character creation?)
CON 5 -> max injury limit: 3
...
Con 11 -> max injury limit: 6
...
CON 19 -> max injury limit: 10
...

This way the player character's chosen class (and accordingly distributed attribute points) as well as the NPCs/companions' classes would also be properly reflected in their different max injury limits. There would be not only distinction in how the different classes or builds participate in combat (melee, ranged, magic) there would also be distinction in how much they can take and absorb before reaching the limit and dying the final death.

Should Maneha, a Barbarian (CON 19 in my last playthrough of POE1), not be able to soak up considerably more damage or accumulate significantly more injuries than Aloth, a Wizard (still base CON 10 in my last playthrough of POE1)?

Two concepts for the corresponding redesign of the injury meter necessary to support the proposed revision:

p0XTjJM.png

doUfpQl.png

 

Yep, had something in mind along those lines.
Simple (to implement) yet making quite a difference in regards to what you'd expect from a character with high constitution vs. a character with low constitution in terms of perseverance or pain tolerance, if you will. It does indeed make little sense that an archetypical barbarian and an archetypical wizard should falter or fall from sustaining the exact same, rather low amount of wounds or injuries, unless they're built specifically around and with that in mind.

UI-wise definitely an improvement over the "traffic light" too.
Nice touch with the skull as well.



#82
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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My preference still lies with the endurance/health system from POE1 as well and I can't see the current one in the Beta doing things better in any way. If anything it does things worse than POE1 with the often mentioned

a. fixed number of injuries and
b. the missing strategic component of balancing and maintaining short-term endurance vs. mid-term/long-term health.

I also wouldn't know (yet) how to bring back b. without completely replacing the current one with the endurance/health system from POE1, which of course would be the most preferable solution, but for a. it may be merely a matter of very minor GUI redesign with a small change to how one of the primary attributes affects the max count of injuries.

As already suggested by @eisenschwein and others it would only make sense to let Constitution control how many injuries a character can receive before dying.

My suggestion:

Increase the max injury count by 1 every 2nd point in Constitution.

Starting from:

CON 1 -> max injury limit: 1
CON 3 -> max injury limit: 2 (CON 3 was the lowest you could go in POE1, I believe it's still the same in the Beta character creation?)
CON 5 -> max injury limit: 3
...
Con 11 -> max injury limit: 6
...
CON 19 -> max injury limit: 10
...

This way the player character's chosen class (and accordingly distributed attribute points) as well as the NPCs/companions' classes would also be properly reflected in their different max injury limits. There would be not only distinction in how the different classes or builds participate in combat (melee, ranged, magic) there would also be distinction in how much they can take and absorb before reaching the limit and dying the final death.

Should Maneha, a Barbarian (CON 19 in my last playthrough of POE1), not be able to soak up considerably more damage or accumulate significantly more injuries than Aloth, a Wizard (still base CON 10 in my last playthrough of POE1)?

Two concepts for the corresponding redesign of the injury meter necessary to support the proposed revision:

p0XTjJM.png

doUfpQl.png

 

 

This is a great idea. Only problem is that now you want to make sure your con is an odd  number; no upside for even numbered con values. 

 

You could also index this to the current "lose a percentage of health with each knockout" such that (for example) a hero with ten con would lose 20% of their health on a knockout, while a char with 20 con would only lose 10%. 



#83
dunehunter

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Can we just simply add +/-received heal effect to Con?, currently high the only difference of high Con cha and low Con cha is the ability to take spike damages, a low Con can be as tank as high Con cha if the heal is enough. For example with a Lifegiver casting regeneration spell.

 

But if we make high Con cha get more bonus from healing ability/spell, and low con get less, then it will be more important.


Edited by dunehunter, 30 November 2017 - 04:24 PM.

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#84
draego

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New injury update.

  1. 4 injuries still kill you
  2. The max health loss from injuries will be removed from a lot of injuries unless its the point of that injury or a really bad injury
  3. Also lowering max health loss from 25% to 15%

They said they want player to feel like they can press on and not really rest spam and that resting should take food bonus loss over time more into account


Edited by draego, 30 November 2017 - 08:33 PM.

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#85
Quillon

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New injury update.

  1. 4 injuries still kill you
  2. The max health loss from injuries will be removed from a lot of injuries unless its the point of that injury or a really bad injury
  3. Also lowering max health loss from 25% to 15%

They said they want player to feel like they can press on and not really rest spam and that resting should take food bonus loss over time more into account

 

With those changes to injury system that not every injury will have a fixed 25% penalty, it will act more like an HP bar; rather an invisible one that dictates available endurance, now it just needs to be visible and deplete with damage again with maybe reducing injury HP penalties even further. Since its dictating available endurance, HP loss should be capped at 50%, if a character's below 50% HP, it should receive an enormous debuff and next KO should perma-kill him regardless of injury count.

 

 

I didn't mind reduction on party size(for reasons) but with both HP/endu split gone and Might's getting chopped in half really takes away from PoE's uniqueness in its systems, maybe not that much effectively but in feels  :p Just my 2 cents.


Edited by Quillon, 03 December 2017 - 02:01 PM.


#86
demeisen

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New injury update.

  1. 4 injuries still kill you
  2. The max health loss from injuries will be removed from a lot of injuries unless its the point of that injury or a really bad injury
  3. Also lowering max health loss from 25% to 15%

They said they want player to feel like they can press on and not really rest spam and that resting should take food bonus loss over time more into account

 

​IMO, that is a slight improvement on the current scheme, but still not as good as the POE1 system was, which itself wasn't perfect, but was okay.  There needs to be a cost to taking combat damage even if you don't get knocked out.

​Also, I think if they want the player to not rest spam, the way to do that is... limit resting. I don't think the loss of some food bonuses will deliver much meaningful pressure.  Maybe make lower difficulties rest-spammable, and higher ones rest-limited (not just "hike back to an inn" pseudo-limited, but a real limitation which may put the player's back to the wall sometimes).


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#87
Wormerine

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​Also, I think if they want the player to not rest spam, the way to do that is... limit resting. I don't think the loss of some food bonuses will deliver much meaningful pressure.  Maybe make lower difficulties rest-spammable, and higher ones rest-limited (not just "hike back to an inn" pseudo-limited, but a real limitation which may put the player's back to the wall sometimes).


But... why? The system clearly isn’t build for that. There is no resource management. Spells and abilities are per encounter. The only reason to rest are injuries (which you get on screwup, be it falling in battle or running into traps) and restore empower points. Resource management beyond combat level just isn’t really a thing in Deadfire.

#88
demeisen

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But... why? The system clearly isn’t build for that. There is no resource management. Spells and abilities are per encounter. [...] Resource management beyond combat level just isn’t really a thing in Deadfire.

 

Agreed, it (mostly) isn't... which I think is a mistake and irredeemably damages one of the most important aspects of the RPG experience.

 

I understand the whole gaming world has gone this direction, so there's little choice now if they want a commercially viable game.  However, I hope for a new-game option, akin to the permadeath checkbox in POE1, to restore some resource based gameplay.  (I don't think food bonuses suffice for this).


Edited by demeisen, 03 December 2017 - 04:29 PM.


#89
Wormerine

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But... why? The system clearly isn’t build for that. There is no resource management. Spells and abilities are per encounter. [...] Resource management beyond combat level just isn’t really a thing in Deadfire.

 

Agreed, it (mostly) isn't... which I think is a mistake and irredeemably damages one of the most important aspects of the RPG experience.

 

I understand the whole gaming world has gone ADHD, so there's little choice now if they want a commercially viable game.  However, I hope for a new-game option, akin to the permadeath checkbox in POE1, to restore some resource based gameplay.  (I don't think food bonuses suffice for this).

 

 

I see. I really don't think "those-twitchy-kids-these-days" to be a reason for these changes. I would rather expect older fans of originals to not have patience to get potentially stuck in story driven game.
 

I am a big fan of strategy games, resource management, meaningful (often deadly) decision making and all that jazz. Those are selling points to me. But in the end, every game has to decide what it wants to be and where its (and players) main focus should be directed to. I will use the same argument I use whenever this subject of "meaningful" choices and resource management comes up: None of the Infinity Engine games or RPGs that followed really had any resource management in them. In all those D&D games you could rest wherever you wanted. It's not by a mistake. Those are primarly story driven games and getting stuck in a dungeon, having to reload old save, permanently loosing a handcrafted companion, or not being able to complete a quest goes againt what those games are valuing the most. 

In some more mechanicly driven RPGs those tough decisions and possible real looses are welcome. In IE style RPGs they really don't belong. Even if they are somewhat present (perma death of characters in IE game or PoE, or per-rest abilty use, and limited camping) those are more of a flavour than meaty mechanical restrictions. 


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#90
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Can we just simply add +/-received heal effect to Con?, currently high the only difference of high Con cha and low Con cha is the ability to take spike damages, a low Con can be as tank as high Con cha if the heal is enough. For example with a Lifegiver casting regeneration spell.

 

But if we make high Con cha get more bonus from healing ability/spell, and low con get less, then it will be more important.

 

 

One issue with this is that you don't want to "double up" with too many similar effects on the same stat, because then you get a feedback loop type effect going on, where stacking it creates exponential rather than linear effects. Of course maybe that doesn't matter too much given the limited benefit of Constitution regardless.

 

 

So far my biggest concern with this change  is that it could end up making high level fighters permanently invincible. I can remember plenty of fights in PoE where the rest of the party wiped and Eder just kept going and going and going until he ran out of Health. If there's no finite resource he's exhausting, Constant Recovery becomes really really really strong.


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#91
MortyTheGobbo

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Whatever people think about the old system or new, could we not imply people hold different positions because of mental disorders?


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#92
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Suggestion: if they're gonna do this, put a time limit on all healing effects

 

like, a few minutes max duration for constant recovery, etc.



#93
KDubya

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Suggestion: if they're gonna do this, put a time limit on all healing effects

 

like, a few minutes max duration for constant recovery, etc.

 

Constant Recovery has had a time limit since the big Defender Patch in PoE. 

 

In Deadfire it lasts like 45 seconds base and heals 5 per 3 seconds or a total of 75 points of health. Intellect can extend the time and Might can increase the heal amount (soon to be Resolve)



#94
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Suggestion: if they're gonna do this, put a time limit on all healing effects

 

like, a few minutes max duration for constant recovery, etc.

 

Constant Recovery has had a time limit since the big Defender Patch in PoE. 

 

In Deadfire it lasts like 45 seconds base and heals 5 per 3 seconds or a total of 75 points of health. Intellect can extend the time and Might can increase the heal amount (soon to be Resolve)

 

 

 

That should solve the problem then unless the Shod-in-Faith boots (or any other "healing effect on hit") make a comeback.



#95
digdigdigidy

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I like that the system is easier to understand. However, I like the old system better because Constitution is more important as it also increase Health and it prevents Healing from being to strong.






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