Paladin's Faith & Conviction (help needed, minor spoilers)

[Rique]

Hi all,

 

In all these years playing cRPGs, I usually roll a paladin when aviable. I like the general aura around them and the ethos. Funny enough, that wasnt the case on my first run on PoE about 2 years ago. I am not complaining about game mechanics, actually at that point I was pretty unaware of them or the criticism regarding the class. I rolled a fight. I just found the fighter more interesting and I wanted a solid dual wielder.

 

Fast forward to now. I decided roll a paladin and actually did some test with different builds. The whole thing is growing on me, no matter what I love the class no matter what game. But then I am somehow struggling with the ethos. Like in the Norton's quest: my usuall reaction as paladin would be upheld the law no matter what and tell him and the woman I would deliver them to the magistrate. That was ok IF the "kind wayfarers" wasnt the only order that somehow appealed to me (none actually did, but this one has its charm). While exploring the class in the first areas, I just found about "Faith & Conviction" and how it actually works. I dont want get deeper here in order to avoid the topic drift away from the original purpose, but I think in this case it really helps if you turn on reaction and disposition.

 

Basically as a kind wafarer I have to be keep him on his ethos (benevolent and passionate) and let both them go. SO I started digging some info from official wiki and even here and I am still kind confused. Please help and comment:

 

- I read the "maximum" amount you can achieve on each disposition is 3. That means 3 "points" ie 3 answers labelled as benevolent? For example, letting the thieve rest after we escape the caravan camp, letting Norton go and + one would max everything you can have for "benevolent"? I am asking this because if that is NOT the case, I would be interested in keep farming as many benevolent points as I can.

 

- "deep faith" raises F&C, does it mean you need 4 points in each dispostion (4 anwers nailed in dialogues)?

 

Thanks a lot.

 

[JerekKruger]

- I read the "maximum" amount you can achieve on each disposition is 3. That means 3 "points" ie 3 answers labelled as benevolent? For example, letting the thieve rest after we escape the caravan camp, letting Norton go and + one would max everything you can have for "benevolent"? I am asking this because if that is NOT the case, I would be interested in keep farming as many benevolent points as I can.

 

No, it means three ranks in your two favoured dispositions. Basically each time you choose a dialogue option that is labelled with a given disposition you gain some points in that disposition (think of them like disposition XP). Once you gain enough of these points you advance to the next disposition rank. See this page for details: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Disposition#Disposition_gain

 

Very roughly speaking you can reach rank 1 and maybe rank 2 by the end of Act I, and rank 2/3 throughout Act II.

 

It's worth noting that this also means you can get away with a very few dialogue options in your disfavoured dispositions without picking up a rank in them, though be careful as it takes very little to achieve rank 1 in a disposition.

 

- "deep faith" raises F&C, does it mean you need 4 points in each dispostion (4 anwers nailed in dialogues)?

 

No, Deep Faith is a flat bonus to Faith and Conviction. As soon as you pick it you get the bonus.

Edited September 15, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Lampros]

 

- I read the "maximum" amount you can achieve on each disposition is 3. That means 3 "points" ie 3 answers labelled as benevolent? For example, letting the thieve rest after we escape the caravan camp, letting Norton go and + one would max everything you can have for "benevolent"? I am asking this because if that is NOT the case, I would be interested in keep farming as many benevolent points as I can.

 

No, it means three ranks in your two favoured dispositions. Basically each time you choose a dialogue option that is labelled with a given disposition you gain some points in that disposition (think of them like disposition XP). Once you gain enough of these points you advance to the next disposition rank. See this page for details: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Disposition#Disposition_gain

 

Very roughly speaking you can reach rank 1 and maybe rank 2 by the end of Act I, and rank 2/3 throughout Act II.

 

It's worth noting that this also means you can get away with a very few dialogue options in your disfavoured dispositions without picking up a rank in them, though be careful as it takes very little to achieve rank 1 in a disposition.

 

- "deep faith" raises F&C, does it mean you need 4 points in each dispostion (4 anwers nailed in dialogues)?

 

No, Deep Faith is a flat bonus to Faith and Conviction. As soon as you pick it you get the bonus.

 

 

If I sacrifice someone at the blood altar (or something like that) thing and then send food to the ghoul in the tower for two stat boosts, am I going to get Cruelty -2? I only did the tower thing, and not the blood altar. And if I do get -2 Cruelty, is that going to really hurt my efficiency as a Wayfarer Paladin? I am still not exactly sure how the Disposition bonuses and maluses work.

 

Edit: And no way to reduce Dispositions that have gone to minus categories?

Edited September 15, 2017 by Lampros

[JerekKruger]

If I sacrifice someone at the blood altar (or something like that) thing and then send food to the ghoul in the tower for two stat boosts, am I going to get Cruelty -2? I only did the tower thing, and not the blood altar. And if I do get -2 Cruelty, is that going to really hurt my efficiency as a Wayfarer Paladin? I am still not exactly sure how the Disposition bonuses and maluses work.

 

Well to sacrifice someone at the Blood Altar you need to already have (at least) Cruel 1, otherwise you won't have the option. I don't know how many "Cruel points" doing either of these things will give you, you'd need to check your character sheet before and after to find out whether it's enough to increase your Cruel rank.

 

As for how much it'll affect you, each rank you have in a disfavoured disposition will result in -1 Deflection and -2 to each of Fortitude, Reflex and Will from Faith and Conviction, so at Cruel 2 you'll get -2 Deflection and -4 Fortitude, Reflex and Will. It's up to you to decide how much that affects you efficiency.

 

If you're really worried about this you can always take the talent Untroubled Faith, which removes the penalty for disfavoured dispositions, although of course that means losing a talent point that could be spent on something else. To give you some idea whether or not it's worth it, Deep Faith gives +2 Deflection and +5 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will, so if you have 2 ranks in Cruel and no ranks in Deceptive you'll get more from taking Deep Faith than you would from taking Untroubled Faith. Of course, if you have 3 ranks in both Cruel and Deceptive that is -6 Deflection and -12 Fortitude, Reflex and Will, at which point Untroubled Faith is much better than Deep Faith (though you've got to question why your Paladin is a Kind Wayfarer if he is so cruel and deceptive).

 

Edit: And no way to reduce Dispositions that have gone to minus categories?

 

Sadly not. You'd think that, for example, a character couldn't be both Honest and Deceptive, and that being Honest in dialogues would reduce your Deceptive rank, but that's not how it works. Once you gain ranks in a disposition you can never lose them.

[Torm51]

I a Kind Wayfarer that sacrifices people...are you trying to RP like a Paladin falling from grace and turning into a Death Guard??? (Death Knight type)!

[Rique]

 

- I read the "maximum" amount you can achieve on each disposition is 3. That means 3 "points" ie 3 answers labelled as benevolent? For example, letting the thieve rest after we escape the caravan camp, letting Norton go and + one would max everything you can have for "benevolent"? I am asking this because if that is NOT the case, I would be interested in keep farming as many benevolent points as I can.

 

No, it means three ranks in your two favoured dispositions. Basically each time you choose a dialogue option that is labelled with a given disposition you gain some points in that disposition (think of them like disposition XP). Once you gain enough of these points you advance to the next disposition rank. See this page for details: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Disposition#Disposition_gain

 

Very roughly speaking you can reach rank 1 and maybe rank 2 by the end of Act I, and rank 2/3 throughout Act II.

 

It's worth noting that this also means you can get away with a very few dialogue options in your disfavoured dispositions without picking up a rank in them, though be careful as it takes very little to achieve rank 1 in a disposition.

 

- "deep faith" raises F&C, does it mean you need 4 points in each dispostion (4 anwers nailed in dialogues)?

 

No, Deep Faith is a flat bonus to Faith and Conviction. As soon as you pick it you get the bonus.

 

 

 

Thanks, Jerek. Stupid question: where I can track this "dispostion bar" (rank)? as far as I remember, I know about a sheet on character profile showing "points". Is that? I honestly dont remember the numbers of my fighter.

 

SO, based on the answers I must (lets put that way) try farm as many points possible wich is what I want

That means, for example, instead of taking a diplomatic or fast resolution at the camp, the best thing is let the dude (I keep forgeting his name) getting hut, kill the thieves, save him to unlock the situation where he should rest (and get the benevolent point)?

OR

The game has enough options to max BOTH dispostions (benevolent and passionate) without me trying to farm all to max it?

 

PS.: I dont want waste a talent on Untroubled Faith. In my case, that not even needed because I will surely NOT pick any oposity disposition anyway. But sometimes, as far I could see in the Norton's case, I may want take things on a more "lawful" approach.

[Lampros]

 

If I sacrifice someone at the blood altar (or something like that) thing and then send food to the ghoul in the tower for two stat boosts, am I going to get Cruelty -2? I only did the tower thing, and not the blood altar. And if I do get -2 Cruelty, is that going to really hurt my efficiency as a Wayfarer Paladin? I am still not exactly sure how the Disposition bonuses and maluses work.

 

As for how much it'll affect you, each rank you have in a disfavoured disposition will result in -1 Deflection and -2 to each of Fortitude, Reflex and Will from Faith and Conviction, so at Cruel 2 you'll get -2 Deflection and -4 Fortitude, Reflex and Will. It's up to you to decide how much that affects you efficiency.

 

If you're really worried about this you can always take the talent Untroubled Faith, which removes the penalty for disfavoured dispositions, although of course that means losing a talent point that could be spent on something else. To give you some idea whether or not it's worth it, Deep Faith gives +2 Deflection and +5 to Fortitude, Reflex and Will, so if you have 2 ranks in Cruel and no ranks in Deceptive you'll get more from taking Deep Faith than you would from taking Untroubled Faith. Of course, if you have 3 ranks in both Cruel and Deceptive that is -6 Deflection and -12 Fortitude, Reflex and Will, at which point Untroubled Faith is much better than Deep Faith (though you've got to question why your Paladin is a Kind Wayfarer if he is so cruel and deceptive).

 

Edit: And no way to reduce Dispositions that have gone to minus categories?

 

Sadly not. You'd think that, for example, a character couldn't be both Honest and Deceptive, and that being Honest in dialogues would reduce your Deceptive rank, but that's not how it works. Once you gain ranks in a disposition you can never lose them.

 

 

Thanks so much. I have a better idea now. Since I did not accumulate any Deceptive score last playthrough, I assume Cruelty 2 is the worst I will get. And in that case, Deep Faith will still be worth it. I may still take Untroubled Faith though, since I should have an extra level-up point to play with, if I am dropping the Corrosion damage/DR buff talent (I probably will go for a dual disable build - not Bittercut build - this time).

Edited September 15, 2017 by Lampros

[Lampros]

I a Kind Wayfarer that sacrifices people...are you trying to RP like a Paladin falling from grace and turning into a Death Guard??? (Death Knight type)!

 

No, it's more a case where gameplay efficiency will trump RP - when the two must conflict. I like stat bonuses too much!

[Torm51]

 

I a Kind Wayfarer that sacrifices people...are you trying to RP like a Paladin falling from grace and turning into a Death Guard??? (Death Knight type)!

 

No, it's more a case where gameplay efficiency will trump RP - when the two must conflict. I like stat bonuses too much!

 

To each his own Part of what I love about the Paladin is that strict adherence to a code.  I am a military guy it attracts me.  On top of the fact that the class is really good.  If I want to sacrifice innocents I would just play a Bleak Walker or a Goldpact Knight (gives no ****s) but that's me.  Have your fun my friend !

Edited September 15, 2017 by Torm51

[JerekKruger]

Thanks, Jerek. Stupid question: where I can track this "dispostion bar" (rank)? as far as I remember, I know about a sheet on character profile showing "points". Is that? I honestly dont remember the numbers of my fighter.

 

Unfortunately you can't track the individual disposition points themselves, only your rank.

 

SO, based on the answers I must (lets put that way) try farm as many points possible wich is what I want

That means, for example, instead of taking a diplomatic or fast resolution at the camp, the best thing is let the dude (I keep forgeting his name) getting hut, kill the thieves, save him to unlock the situation where he should rest (and get the benevolent point)?

OR

The game has enough options to max BOTH dispostions (benevolent and passionate) without me trying to farm all to max it?

 

You should have absolutely no problem getting both Benevolent and Passionate to rank 3 even if you don't always go for every dialogue option for them. It'll take a little longer than if you optimised it but it should still be doable by the end of Act II or during the White March part I.

 

By the way, I think there's a Passionate option during the prologue fight, but like I said I wouldn't worry too much about farming favoured dispositions.

 

PS.: I dont want waste a talent on Untroubled Faith. In my case, that not even needed because I will surely NOT pick any oposity disposition anyway. But sometimes, as far I could see in the Norton's case, I may want take things on a more "lawful" approach.

 

Yeah, if you can avoid needing Untroubled Faith that's better, since it allows you to take another, more useful talent.

 

As for the lawful approach, as I understand it Paladins in Pillars are a little different to Paladins in, say, D&D. They aren't necessarily lawful good types, instead they follow a particular ideology which they try to be exemplars of. In the case of the Kind Wayfarers they act as guides and protectors of travellers. From an RP perspective I'd say the only requirement is that you help those in need out in the wilderness and try to make the wilderness a safer place for travellers in general.

 

Beyond that there are no specific requirements for your paladin's behaviour. If you want them to be a generally lawful individual then I think that can fit perfectly well, but it's not a requirement.

Edited September 15, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Lampros]

 

 

I a Kind Wayfarer that sacrifices people...are you trying to RP like a Paladin falling from grace and turning into a Death Guard??? (Death Knight type)!

 

No, it's more a case where gameplay efficiency will trump RP - when the two must conflict. I like stat bonuses too much!

 

To each his own Part of what I love about the Paladin is that strict adherence to a code.  I am a military guy it attracts me.  On top of the fact that the class is really good.  If I want to sacrifice innocents I would just play a Bleak Walker or a Goldpact Knight (gives no ****s) but that's me.  Have your fun my friend !

 

 

I can totally empathize! But I guess I am a bit more willing to bend the rules a bit for results!

 

The problem with choosing Goldpact Knights or Bleak Walkers is that I think Wayfarer builder builds are just way too more effective due to the on-kill heals (and I will have a lot of kills with dual wield/Immolation DPS build).

[Torm51]

 

 

 

I a Kind Wayfarer that sacrifices people...are you trying to RP like a Paladin falling from grace and turning into a Death Guard??? (Death Knight type)!

 

No, it's more a case where gameplay efficiency will trump RP - when the two must conflict. I like stat bonuses too much!

 

To each his own Part of what I love about the Paladin is that strict adherence to a code.  I am a military guy it attracts me.  On top of the fact that the class is really good.  If I want to sacrifice innocents I would just play a Bleak Walker or a Goldpact Knight (gives no ****s) but that's me.  Have your fun my friend !

 

 

I can totally empathize! But I guess I am a bit more willing to bend the rules a bit for results!

 

The problem with choosing Goldpact Knights or Bleak Walkers is that I think Wayfarer builder builds are just way too more effective due to the on-kill heals (and I will have a lot of kills with dual wield/Immolation DPS build).

 

Oh man you have opened another can of worms for me!  I just do not think a massive amount healing in POE is useful.  Especially if you do not play with Maim (maybe this is why its the case for me) and just play 0 Health means death.  Any character who is taking such a pounding that he needs to be constantly healed is going to  lose a lot of Health and eventually DIE if you do not end the fight.  So I have generally gone the damage approach and leaving endurance restoration to really good passives.  I have even forgone Lay on Hands in my current run and I do not miss it. 

 

I AM not saying Wayfarer endurance restoration abilities are bad.  They are not.  Lay on Hands is still really good as are the other healing abilities.  But I generally think you just need one or two.  These Wayfarer builds that have Sword and the Shepherd, Strange Mercy, Lay on Hands and Shod in Faith boots are just WAY overkill.

 

What I do not like about strange mercy is that sometimes its over heal as there is no one to heal OR you are fighting a one powerful enemy and no adds are left...well the ability will do nothing at that point.  Sword and the Shepherd I think is good for a support type that is not using FoD for damage but for a AOE heal (Like a Priests Radiance).  If you use it for damage it will hamstring you in that you might not need a heal and you use it..or you try saving it for when you need healing and do not do damage.  Granted you could just use it when appropriate and its fine but there is always an inefficient scenario with Sword and Shepherd..you either overheal or do not damage cause you want to heal.  This is why I generally think for healing purpose, emergency button scenarios Lay on Hands is the best and is enough (even though I skipped it this time but that's cause of my party set up).

 

A Bleak Walker can just take LoH grab the corrode sabre (wax mold it if possible) and the appropriate talents and alpha strike better then a wayfarer.  Also a low Int Golpact Knight will do more damage then a Wayfarer speced the same way with Enduring Flames. 

 

But now we are getting into builds and not RP and disposition.  Sorry you triggered me on HEALING! I loved healing types in past fantasy games and its a sore spot for me in this game lol 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Torm51

[Lampros]

 

 

 

 

I a Kind Wayfarer that sacrifices people...are you trying to RP like a Paladin falling from grace and turning into a Death Guard??? (Death Knight type)!

 

No, it's more a case where gameplay efficiency will trump RP - when the two must conflict. I like stat bonuses too much!

 

To each his own Part of what I love about the Paladin is that strict adherence to a code.  I am a military guy it attracts me.  On top of the fact that the class is really good.  If I want to sacrifice innocents I would just play a Bleak Walker or a Goldpact Knight (gives no ****s) but that's me.  Have your fun my friend !

 

 

I can totally empathize! But I guess I am a bit more willing to bend the rules a bit for results!

 

The problem with choosing Goldpact Knights or Bleak Walkers is that I think Wayfarer builder builds are just way too more effective due to the on-kill heals (and I will have a lot of kills with dual wield/Immolation DPS build).

 

Oh man you have opened another can of worms for me!  I just do not think a massive amount healing in POE is useful.  Especially if you do not play with Maim (maybe this is why its the case for me) and just play 0 Health means death.  Any character who is taking such a pounding that he needs to be constantly healed is going to  lose a lot of Health and eventually DIE if you do not end the fight.  So I have generally gone the damage approach and leaving endurance restoration to really good passives.  I have even forgone Lay on Hands in my current run and I do not miss it. 

 

I AM not saying Wayfarer endurance restoration abilities are bad.  They are not.  Lay on Hands is still really good as are the other healing abilities.  But I generally think you just need one or two.  These Wayfarer builds that have Sword and the Shepherd, Strange Mercy, Lay on Hands and Shod in Faith boots are just WAY overkill.

 

What I do not like about strange mercy is that sometimes its over heal as there is no one to heal OR you are fighting a one powerful enemy and no adds are left...well the ability will do nothing at that point.  Sword and the Shepherd I think is good for a support type that is not using FoD for damage but for a AOE heal (Like a Priests Radiance).  If you use it for damage it will hamstring you in that you might not need a heal and you use it..or you try saving it for when you need healing and do not do damage.  Granted you could just use it when appropriate and its fine but there is always an inefficient scenario with Sword and Shepherd..you either overheal or do not damage cause you want to heal.  This is why I generally think for healing purpose, emergency button scenarios Lay on Hands is the best and is enough (even though I skipped it this time but that's cause of my party set up).

 

A Bleak Walker can just take LoH grab the corrode sabre (wax mold it if possible) and the appropriate talents and alpha strike better then a wayfarer.  Also a low Int Golpact Knight will do more damage then a Wayfarer speced the same way with Enduring Flames. 

 

But now we are getting into builds and not RP and disposition.  Sorry you triggered me on HEALING! I loved healing types in past fantasy games and its a sore spot for me in this game lol 

 

 

I generally agree with you that in this game healing is relatively weaker/redundant compared to similar RPG games. However, I am such a cautious player by habit that it is difficult to break from over-heal/survivalist type of group set-up. Nonetheless, I do agree that even I wouldn't over-stack heals to the point where I'd even add Sword and Shepherd on top of this Wayfarer build.

 

After this discussion, I may actually consider getting out of my survivalist shell and go for a Goldpact or Bleak Walker build!

Edited September 15, 2017 by Lampros