Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?

[Phenomenum]

Wow... Thank you a lot! I don't know about wounding calculation - thinking it's scales only from Might.

I had my doubts about this. Ok, so i spend Helwax on Drawn in Spring   and i like +9 accuracy bonus in that case (+5 from dagger, + 4 from Flick of the Wrist)

[Lampros]

Drawn in Spring.

 

Annihilation on a sabre only adds 6.75 of damage on crit on average. This is always the case no matter the enchanetments, because the additional 0.5 crit damage mod is only applied to the base damage of the sabre (11-16 -> average of 13.5). It's only an additive damage bonus. Another thing that sabres have is that theyare sharp, which adds 2.7 damage compared to Drawn in Spring.

 

Wounding on the other hand is caculated based on the actual damage roll (including all damage mods like Sneak Attack, Deathblows, MIG, enchantments and so on - pre DR!). It's multiplicative and comes as raw damage. And it gets further boosted by MIG bonus.

Daggers have an average base damage of 11(9-13). Without any damage bonus wounding would only add 2.75 damage. But now add superb (+45%), Sneak Attack (+50%),  Deathblows (+100%) and a crit with Durgan Steel + Merciless Hand + Dungeon Delver (+90%): the damage climbs from 11 to 42.35. Now wounding gets calculated and is 10.59. That's higher than the annihilation of the sabres. Now add the fact that daggers are faster than sabres and that MIG will boost wounding damage: with 20 MIG it would be 14.84.

 

I will put the damage calcs of both side by side (I'm using 20 MIG, superb, crit with Durgan Steel, Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver, Sneak Attack and Deathblows):

Annihilating sabre on crit: 65.48

Drawn in Spring on crit: 59.51

 

Looks less, but now you'd have to look at the attacks speed. In 500 frames with 10 DEX and no speed bonuses sabre would deal 451,59 (all crits!) and Drawn in Spring would deal 616,05 damage (all crits). Of course it's unlikely that you crit with every strike. And if you don't then annihilation does nothing for you - while wounding would still add damage, even when you graze. So even if you'd crit with 100% of your attacks Drawn in Spring would still be better (with auto attacks).

 

 

Merciless Hand, Durgan Steel and stuff applies to every non-soulbound or summoned weapon and is not exclusive to annihilating sabres.

 

Thank you so much for the clarification here. So Annihilation does not add as much DPS as I thought, if you have an uber-offensive set-up that has other stacking damage boni.

[Lampros]

But Wounding applies the Intelligence bonus, so you need a low Intelligence character to effectively utilize it? Or was that just an isolated case?

[Boeroer]

Higher INT will lead to a longer time of appliance with unchanged damage - so damage per second will suffer a bit.

 

Example:

With 10 INT and 15 damage from wounding you will have the base duration (5 secs).

So you'll get additional 3 damage per second, right? But the overall damage stays 15 - spread over 5 secs.

 

Now with 20 INT and 15 damage you will have a duration of 7.5 seconds. That is only 2 damage per second and thus lower dps. But the overall damage stays 15 - spread over 7.5 secs.

 

With 1 INT you'd get 5.45 damage per second because wounding would only take 2.75 secs. But still the overall damage stays 15.

 

You see that overall damage stays the same, it just takes longer for the raw damage to apply with higher INT. This can be important (you want to kill an opponent asap for example). In the end you don't necessarily lose the damage - you just have to wait a little longer. Still a drop in damage per second (dps). But it's not that bad and still better than annihilation even with high INT.

And maybe sometimes you want it to take longer (like when wounding triggers Predator's Sense).

Edited October 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

But Wounding applies the Intelligence bonus, so you need a low Intelligence character to effectively utilize it? Or was that just an isolated case?

As i understanding, with low Int you simply dealing damage faster. Damage numbers not affected by int.

[Boeroer]

Exactly

[Lampros]

Higher INT will lead to a longer time of appliance with unchanged damage - so damage per second will suffer a bit.

 

Example:

With 10 INT and 15 damage from wounding you will have the base duration (5 secs).

So you'll get additional 3 damage per second, right? But the overall damage stays 15 - spread over 5 secs.

 

Now with 20 INT and 15 damage you will have a duration of 7.5 seconds. That is only 2 damage per second and thus lower dps. But the overall damage stays 15 - spread over 7.5 secs.

 

With 1 INT you'd get 5.45 damage per second because wounding would only take 2.75 secs. But still the overall damage stays 15.

 

You see that overall damage stays the same, it just takes longer for the raw damage to apply with higher INT. This can be important (you want to kill an opponent asap for example). In the end you don't necessarily lose the damage - you just have to wait a little longer. Still a drop in damage per second (dps). But it's not that bad and still better than annihilation even with high INT.

And maybe sometimes you want it to take longer (like when wounding triggers Predator's Sense).

 

Ah, got it. So Wounding weapons are - in most cases - better in the hands of low Intelligence characters.

 

Except I use no low Intelligence build on anyone - be it melee or caster!

[Boeroer]

As I said: wounding is still superior to other damage enchantments even with high INT.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

Done! My precious...

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Phenomenum

[Lampros]

As I said: wounding is still superior to other damage enchantments even with high INT.

 

So Wounding weapons are better for anyone - or is it just for Rogues?

[Lampros]

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

 

 

[Phenomenum]

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

Easily got it about lvl 9-10 on my current playtrough, after WM part 1.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Phenomenum

[Blades of Vanatar]

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

I love Borresaine on my Ranger. It sets up easy kills for my Rogue. They are each better when working in tandem.

[Lampros]

 

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

Easily got it about lvl 9-10 on my current playtrough, after WM part 1.

 

 

On PotD? Wow. No way I can do that. I am barely past level 3 Ogres at level 8, ROFL

[Lampros]

 

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

I love Borresaine on my Ranger. It sets up easy kills for my Rogue. They are each better when working in tandem.

 

 

No melee Rogues for me though - I am obsessed about survivability

[Phenomenum]

 

 

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

 

Easily got it about lvl 9-10 on my current playtrough, after WM part 1.

On PotD? Wow. No way I can do that. I am barely past level 3 Ogres at level 8, ROFL

Then you need little more practice - and you'll be fine. Ogres at level 3 Od Nua is tough, but good level 6 (or maybe 5) party must be able to deal with them. Edited October 2, 2017 by Phenomenum

[Lampros]

 

 

 

Apparently Drawn in Spring is the only Wounding 1H, and it comes very late. Darn. What's the earliest you can rush Drawn in Spring on PotD? Like level 12?

 

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Wounding

 

Persistence is earlier, but I really prefer Borresaine, and I'd use Stormcaller mid-game onward anyways on a Ranger. (And not sure if I'd use anyone else for an archer role at this point.)

Easily got it about lvl 9-10 on my current playtrough, after WM part 1.

 

On PotD? Wow. No way I can do that. I am barely past level 3 Ogres at level 8, ROFL

Then you need little more practice - and you'll be fine. Ogres at level 3 Od Nua is tough, but good level 6 (or maybe 5) party must able to deal with them.

 

 

I know; and yet I haven't even figured out a PotD group I am comfortable with

 

I think I can do it on level 7 if I get real lucky, but level 5 or 6 would be not possible at this stage.

[Boeroer]

I think with a lot of stealth and Boots of Speed and some figurines you might be able to sneak and run to Drawn in Spring without fighting? But maybe there are some fight that are not avoidable (like the Drake at lvl 5). I never tried this - but I know for example that you don't need the tiny pyramids in order to open the gate in the blight forge map. And you may be able to sneak past the fampyr on his throne at lvl8?

 

In order to get Drawn in Spring you only need to collect some machine parts and that can be done without fighting I guess.

 

Lots of speculation. Would be fun to try though. Making it a seperate kind of "stronghold adventure" with a solo retrained MC.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Ogres + mind control = dead ogres.

 

Their will saves are bad.

[Phenomenum]

In fact, only several fights in On Nua is not avoidable. Wait until lvl 9, take Kana with Dragon Trashed chant - it help you win most encounters very easy, even without sneaking. Most tough fight will be vithracks (one encounter) and 3 swan gulas (also one encounter).

[Boeroer]

I was curious. Now this is what you'll find when you google "Swan Gula":

 

 

Dammit, how do I resize pictures in bbcode again?

Edited October 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

Ahah) Funny mistake

[Phenomenum]

I'm a very mediocre player, but anyway - i recorded on video fight with Ogres (lvl 6 party). Without mind control (even i have wizard Confusion spell & Munacra Arret).

Funny thing: i know this encounter wery well and usually everything goes swooth as silk, but when i tried to record video everything goes wrong and some of my team was knocked out - if the enemies figured it out somehow and thinking: "Hey guys, he want to make a video, so let's kick some ass this time!".
Or maybe i just nervous.
Anyway, i'm too lazy to repeat this fight becose concept are still the same.

With Confusion and Charm, as Boeroer already said, this fight became much easier. But it's definetely doable on level 6 and, i presume on level 5 too.

https://youtu.be/iBiB7WN7JsQ

Edited October 2, 2017 by Phenomenum

[Lampros]

Ogres + mind control = dead ogres.

 

Their will saves are bad.

 

But my problem is I stack too many buffs, so that will just buff the Ogres I don't know when Arcane Dampener is available, and I don't know how well it works in practice, since I've never even taken the spell. But I guess it's one of those spells that is not necessary at lower levels, but is vital

 

In fact, only several fights in On Nua is not avoidable. Wait until lvl 9, take Kana with Dragon Trashed chant - it help you win most encounters very easy, even without sneaking. Most tough fight will be vithracks (one encounter) and 3 swan gulas (also one encounter).

 

I never go anywhere without a Paladin, a Chanter, a Priest, and a Wizard (only the remaining 2 spots are up for grabs). So I will have Dragon Thrashed ready. But 1 Dragon Thrashed isn't THAT powerful in my experience

 

 

in PotD.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

Ogres + mind control = dead ogres.

 

Their will saves are bad.

But my problem is I stack too many buffs, so that will just buff the Ogres I don't know when Arcane Dampener is available, and I don't know how well it works in practice, since I've never even taken the spell. But I guess it's one of those spells that is not necessary at lower levels, but is vital

In fact, only several fights in On Nua is not avoidable. Wait until lvl 9, take Kana with Dragon Trashed chant - it help you win most encounters very easy, even without sneaking. Most tough fight will be vithracks (one encounter) and 3 swan gulas (also one encounter).

I never go anywhere without a Paladin, a Chanter, a Priest, and a Wizard (only the remaining 2 spots are up for grabs). So I will have Dragon Thrashed ready. But 1 Dragon Thrashed isn't THAT powerful in my experience

 

 

in PotD.

????

 

High Mig and Int leads to awesome damage with Dragons Thrashed. Pump your stats. Use consumables before the battle, make sure equipment is boosting those two stats, use the Priest ability that adds +2 to your stats, etc... boost Mig and Int!