Request: Non-binary player character

[Sakai]

So many people simply infer the whole representation and equality issues from our world one by one to a fantasy or sci-fi setting with (complete) disregard of the story/lore of that setting.

That's because some people treat games as vehicles for their political/moral agendas first, entertainment products second. So whatever negative effect inclusion of certain topics may bring, it is a worthy sacrifice in the name of whatever they're doing it for. 

 

Is that your concern? Personally I don't give a **** about your opinion and I assume lots of people here think the same way. You can't even defend it, this "opinion". Yet you post here. Isn't that the same thing? No it's worse. It's like going into a vegetarian restaurant, taking a seat at an occupied table and telling someone that you don't like salad. Noone cares! Cry elsewhere. And do it quietly.

It was a question, not an opinion. A question that you can't answer, apperantly.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Sakai

[Lord_Mord]

 

It was a question, not an opinion. A question that you can't answer, apperantly.

 

I don't have to. Nobody has to. It is just not your concern.

 

Apperently you didn't understand the rest of my post and I don't think it's up to me to explain it to you. It's pointless anyway.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lord_Mord

[Amentep]

Non-Binary in gender is - as I understand it - an individual who identifies as and/or is either both male and female or neither male nor female.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Putting in every gender under the Sun is ridiculous.

 

I think something neutral like "them" will shurely suffice for everybody. So don't dramatize, that's ridiculous.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lord_Mord

[HooAmEye]

I'm honestly doubting it would be that hard to implement. Now I don't have code to look at from PoE right now, but I'm assuming it works on the same basis as the Baldur's Gate game in terms of referencing gender. That is to say, when one would state the PC's gender it would check (Male/Female) variable and implement (he/her). I don't really understand how adding a third variable, which we call "Other" would be that hard to add.

[Sakai]

Non-Binary in gender is - as I understand it - an individual who identifies as and/or is either both male and female or neither male nor female.

That is a very vague definition, you have to admit. What does it actually means in practical terms? And more to the point, does male/female (both irl and in the context of the game) actually imply some kind of pattern of behavior or something like that? Something so profound that someone would feel the need to be called something else. Because as far as i can see, you're a he if you have a ****, and you're a she if you have a vagina. And that's really about it. Although there are transgender people of course, but that is not relevant here, since those people would play as the gender they indentify with. 

 

Edit: lol, p enis is bad word, but vagina isn't?

Edited August 28, 2017 by Sakai

[Lord_Mord]

 

And that's really about it.

 

As there really is nothing about it, you won't mind if I adress you in female form and even think of you in female form from now on? Not that it would change my view about you (As there really is nothing about it), but it explains a lot. All that whining and nagging.

[algroth]

To be fair, its also silly to argue that a fantasy setting couldn't have modern issues since its a fantasy, development of the world would be vastly different from ours (although, to be fair a setting that knows that people are reincarnated and that people could be either gender through their lives would realistically never hold onto the same kind of thoughts about gender and sexual identity as our world.)

 

Yeah, I agree. But as with Sawyer evading terms that relate too closely to real-life culture and beliefs, I think the matter here is less about whether or not a setting like this could show these themes and concerns and more about the form in which it would. I think there are ways of inferring transgenderism or gender-queer without ever using either term, basically.

 

Here's an interesting comparison to me: the way I interpret Dak'kon's torment in Planescape: Torment is very much in the same line as transracialism, in the way that his themes are all about a disassociation or loss of the history and ways of his culture to him. He isn't black nor is the term transracial or 'race' ever used in regards to his character, but by the way the game paints him as someone who is made a slave, denied a place in Githzerai culture and who "does not know himself", he is made to me a surprisingly poignant and interesting representation of this issue in the fantasy genre. Place this in comparison to either the elves in Dragon Age or the orlans in Pillars which are more obvious representations of racial issues and neither of the latter choices make anywhere near the impression or say nearly as much as the former case does.

[Sakai]

As there really is nothing about it, you won't mind if I adress you in female form and even think of you in female form from now on? Not that it would change my view about you (As there really is nothing about it), but it explains a lot. All that whining and nagging.

Lol! You do realise you just tried to insult me with a sexist stereotype?  

[algroth]

 

Well, if you are asking for representation, then you're in luck. PoE is pretty much the most aetheistic video game setting out there given that it is more or less an adaptation of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra".

 

It's not really atheistic at all though, it only appears that way to those who associate being a theist with believing in a monotheistic creator deity. Take the Greek gods for example: they didn't create the world, they didn't create humanity and they themselves were created by others. The Eoran gods are similar, the only difference is that they were created by the kith rather than being descended (ultimately) from the sky and the earth.

 

Moreover the fact that the Eoran gods were created by the Engwithans doesn't mean there isn't a creator deity in the Eoran universe. The existence of a creator god is no more or less likely than it is in our own world, so even if you do insist on a creator god there could be one. In fact I think the emergence of a monotheistic religion in opposition to the worship of the "false" Engwithan gods could be an interesting development for the franchise, particularly in light of the revelation that the gods were created by kith.

 

 

This isn't quite accurate though. The Engwithans are said by Iovara to have found out that there was indeed 'nothing' where they believed to be gods, and thus created surrogate gods for people to not lose faith. The reason is important here, as it is not the same reason that motivated the creation of the gods in Greek mythology or other faiths. In Pillars you are only left with the atheist position in the end, because the gods are just there to conceal the nothingness that is behind.

 

After my first playthrough of the game I was pretty curious about the possibility of there being amidst the gods we know of in the game a 'real' god that hid himself amidst the constructs (I assumed that to be Wael). However, the way Iovara and Thaos both phrase their revelations leaves no room for such ambiguities.

[injurai]

What if you could just over-ride pronouns with a custom one...

 

Problem solved.

 

The world is welcome.

 

I'll be setting up a patreon shortly.

[Lord_Mord]

 

You do realise you just tried to insult me with a sexist stereotype?

 

You're a clever little girl, aren't you?

[Fluffle]

 

So many people simply infer the whole representation and equality issues from our world one by one to a fantasy or sci-fi setting with (complete) disregard of the story/lore of that setting.

That's because some people treat games as vehicles for their political/moral agendas first, entertainment products second. So whatever negative effect inclusion of certain topics may bring, it is a worthy sacrifice in the name of whatever they're doing it for.

 

 

I think I need to clarify. What I said before that goes both ways.

 

There are many people who think "political correctness" from our world should be implanted in a game setting one-by-one.

And then there are also many people who think "political uncorrectness" from our world should be implanted in a game setting one-by-one.

 

Just as you shouldn't assume that all citizen across Eora adhere to the "political correctness" of our world and strive to treat everyone equally, you should also not assume that LBGT characters are mistreated and stigmatized as in some parts and societies of our world.

 

So once again, I would ask the developers to explore this topic in alignment with Eora's lore.

 

Until we don't know more, we are bound to discuss this based on assumptions. And most of the time those assumptions will be based on our experiences here in our world.

And then there is danger that we disregard the lore and story of Eora too easily of which we don't have yet enough information which is my point...

Edited August 28, 2017 by Fluffle

[Amentep]

 

Non-Binary in gender is - as I understand it - an individual who identifies as and/or is either both male and female or neither male nor female.

That is a very vague definition, you have to admit. What does it actually means in practical terms? And more to the point, does male/female (both irl and in the context of the game) actually imply some kind of pattern of behavior or something like that? Something so profound that someone would feel the need to be called something else. Because as far as i can see, you're a he if you have a ****, and you're a she if you have a vagina. And that's really about it. Although there are transgender people of course, but that is not relevant here, since those people would play as the gender they indentify with. 

 

Edit: lol, p enis is bad word, but vagina isn't?

 

 

Well the obvious non-binary gender are hermaphrodites, born with the reproductive systems of either gender.  But there would also be the agender, those who - as I understand it - find no identity in either gender (regardless of their born gender).

[algroth]

Non-Binary in gender is - as I understand it - an individual who identifies as and/or is either both male and female or neither male nor female.

This, pretty much. If you understand gender as a spectrum more so than a binary set of male/female then anything that isn't just "male" or "female" would fall into the "non-binary" category.

[Amentep]

This isn't quite accurate though. The Engwithans are said by Iovara to have found out that there was indeed 'nothing' where they believed to be gods, and thus created surrogate gods for people to not lose faith. The reason is important here, as it is not the same reason that motivated the creation of the gods in Greek mythology or other faiths. In Pillars you are only left with the atheist position in the end, because the gods are just there to conceal the nothingness that is behind.

 

After my first playthrough of the game I was pretty curious about the possibility of there being amidst the gods we know of in the game a 'real' god that hid himself amidst the constructs (I assumed that to be Wael). However, the way Iovara and Thaos both phrase their revelations leaves no room for such ambiguities.

 

However, one has to be careful to remember that absence of evidence cannot be construed as evidence of absence. Just because you look and don't find anything doesn't mean it isn't there. Regardless of how Iovara or Thaos interpreted finding nothing when looking, that they found nothing doesn't mean there is nothing, it simply means they didn't find anything.  You'd have to be omniscient (in time and space) to prove a negative.

[Sakai]

 

I think I need to clarify. What I said before that goes both ways.

 

There are many people who think "political correctness" from our world should be implanted in a game setting one-by-one.

And then there are also many people who think "political uncorrectness" from our world should be implanted in a game setting one-by-one.

 

Just as you shouldn't assume that all citizen across Eora adhere to the "political correctness" of our world and strive to treat everyone equally, you should also not assume that LBGT characters are mistreated and stigmatized as in some parts and societies of our world.

 

So once again, I would ask the developers to explore this topic in alignment with Eora's lore.

 

Until we don't know more, we are bound to discuss this based on assumptions. And most of the time those assumptions will be based on our experiences here in our world.

And then there is danger that we disregard the lore and story of Eora too easily of which we don't have yet enough information which is my point...

Yeah, i know what you meant and agree completely with what you're saying. Just that in the current context, both with PoE and other games, i don't see too many people protesting LGBT or whatever else if it's done right. Sure, there are some fringe arseholes, but most don't seem to care, from what i've seen anyway. But there does seem to be a big push from the PC crowd, that's why i focused specifically on them. And to clarify, i personally have nothing against including these kind of things per se. I just hate it when they are being forced in with no concern for any kind of logic. 

[algroth]

 

 

Non-Binary in gender is - as I understand it - an individual who identifies as and/or is either both male and female or neither male nor female.

That is a very vague definition, you have to admit. What does it actually means in practical terms? And more to the point, does male/female (both irl and in the context of the game) actually imply some kind of pattern of behavior or something like that? Something so profound that someone would feel the need to be called something else. Because as far as i can see, you're a he if you have a ****, and you're a she if you have a vagina. And that's really about it. Although there are transgender people of course, but that is not relevant here, since those people would play as the gender they indentify with. 

 

Edit: lol, p enis is bad word, but vagina isn't?

 

 

Well the obvious non-binary gender are hermaphrodites, born with the reproductive systems of either gender.  But there would also be the agender, those who - as I understand it - find no identity in either gender (regardless of their born gender).

 

A small correction here: hermaphrodites would be non-binary in sex, but they may still identify primarily with one of either gender. Again this falls back to the thoughts I posted in the first page of the discussion that, really, what the game asks of the player is to input their sex and not their gender, and if it were to use the correct terminology it would thus allow the player to imagine their character's gender as they see fit within the game itself.

[Amentep]

A small correction here: hermaphrodites would be non-binary in sex, but they may still identify primarily with one of either gender. Again this falls back to the thoughts I posted in the first page of the discussion that, really, what the game asks of the player is to input their sex and not their gender, and if it were to use the correct terminology it would thus allow the player to imagine their character's gender as they see fit within the game itself.

Thanks for the clarification and correction.

[algroth]

 

This isn't quite accurate though. The Engwithans are said by Iovara to have found out that there was indeed 'nothing' where they believed to be gods, and thus created surrogate gods for people to not lose faith. The reason is important here, as it is not the same reason that motivated the creation of the gods in Greek mythology or other faiths. In Pillars you are only left with the atheist position in the end, because the gods are just there to conceal the nothingness that is behind.

 

After my first playthrough of the game I was pretty curious about the possibility of there being amidst the gods we know of in the game a 'real' god that hid himself amidst the constructs (I assumed that to be Wael). However, the way Iovara and Thaos both phrase their revelations leaves no room for such ambiguities.

 

However, one has to be careful to remember that absence of evidence cannot be construed as evidence of absence. Just because you look and don't find anything doesn't mean it isn't there. Regardless of how Iovara or Thaos interpreted finding nothing when looking, that they found nothing doesn't mean there is nothing, it simply means they didn't find anything.  You'd have to be omniscient (in time and space) to prove a negative.

 

Indeed, but Iovara says they found evidence to their being nothing (or at least enough to reach a pretty rotund conclusion). This is, at least, how it is phrased in her revelation.

 

Also, while if we were to speak of the real world I would indeed agree with what you say, in the context of a narrative the fact that she says they "found nothing" by all means implies that, to what pertains to this setting and story, there is indeed nothing. Which makes sense too from a thematic standpoint as the game is all about the enlightenment, birth of humanism and so on (also associated with this topic is the review I wrote for Pillars, which you can read here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91046-what-are-you-playing-right-now/?p=1897511 ).

Edited August 28, 2017 by algroth

[algroth]

 

A small correction here: hermaphrodites would be non-binary in sex, but they may still identify primarily with one of either gender. Again this falls back to the thoughts I posted in the first page of the discussion that, really, what the game asks of the player is to input their sex and not their gender, and if it were to use the correct terminology it would thus allow the player to imagine their character's gender as they see fit within the game itself.

Thanks for the clarification and correction.

 

Sorry if it came across as a bit haughty from my side, it wasn't the intention.

[Sakai]

This, pretty much. If you understand gender as a spectrum more so than a binary set of male/female then anything that isn't just "male" or "female" would fall into the "non-binary" category.

But there is no binary, that's the point. Saying that there is implies that there's some kind of a strict definition of these terms, which there isn't. When you click on male or female when creating a character, all you do is select your character model. Your personality, who you are is entirely up to you, and is not determined by the choice of that model at all. 

[algroth]

 

This, pretty much. If you understand gender as a spectrum more so than a binary set of male/female then anything that isn't just "male" or "female" would fall into the "non-binary" category.

But there is no binary, that's the point. Saying that there is implies that there's some kind of a strict definition of these terms, which there isn't. When you click on male or female when creating a character, all you do is select your character model. Your personality, who you are is entirely up to you, and is not determined by the choice of that model at all. 

 

Which is why I said that the choice should be relabelled as 'sex' and not 'gender', because the latter refers to something that, while related to your sex, isn't your sex and thus shouldn't dictate your model. When it comes to gender, giving two options for it and immediately associating each to a male and female character model is indeed limiting gender to a binary choice.

[Sakai]

Which is why I said that the choice should be relabelled as 'sex' and not 'gender', because the latter refers to something that, while related to your sex, isn't your sex and thus shouldn't dictate your model. When it comes to gender, giving two options for it and immediately associating each to a male and female character model is indeed limiting gender to a binary choice.

This is incredibly confusing. In russian there isn't even an equivalent for "gender", there's just "sex". So i'm having a big difficulty understanding what gender even supposed to mean in the first place, let alone when it's non-binary. And judging by the answers i'm getting, it's not that much clearer for other people as well.

[Fluffle]

 

 

This, pretty much. If you understand gender as a spectrum more so than a binary set of male/female then anything that isn't just "male" or "female" would fall into the "non-binary" category.

But there is no binary, that's the point. Saying that there is implies that there's some kind of a strict definition of these terms, which there isn't. When you click on male or female when creating a character, all you do is select your character model. Your personality, who you are is entirely up to you, and is not determined by the choice of that model at all. 

 

Which is why I said that the choice should be relabelled as 'sex' and not 'gender', because the latter refers to something that, while related to your sex, isn't your sex and thus shouldn't dictate your model. When it comes to gender, giving two options for it and immediately associating each to a male and female character model is indeed limiting gender to a binary choice.

 

 

But the game does ask you for your sex, and not for your gender. And the OP asks for a THIRD option for gender while there aren't even a FIRST nor a SECOND option for gender.

 

The game simply does not let you choose your gender identity whatsoever; it simply asks for your character's sex.