Mages.

[1varangian]

Yeah I never pick Grimoire slam. Instead, Wizards should get a defensive caster centered AoE blast that would push foes away and knock them prone or stun them. A panic button when they get caught in melee. As it is, Grimoire slam is really.. meh.

 

Llengrath's Warding Staff kind of does that but it's a 7th level spell. Wizards need something like that from the start without the melee weapon. Think of Mind Blast from Dragon Age Origins.

[Boeroer]

They also have Llengrath's Safeguard which does the same at 50% endurance, they have Arcane Veil which makes you, esp. in combination with Wizard's Double, untouchable in melee. I don't see the need for even more abilities around this..

 

But Grimoire Slam is really bad after the early game if you don't work with high MIG and crits, I agree. It doesn't work as defensive ability at all. 2m push is weak, too.

[1varangian]

Agreed, there are too many defensive spells. I would start removing some of the boring ones that only passively add +X to defense. It's much more satisfying to knock opponents down or create a devious illusion to fool them.

 

Arcane Veil is an oddball too. They made that into a panic button with a high Deflection bonus and a short duration. But it's a really boring panic button and 10 second durations are annoying to keep track of. While an AoE knockdown push around caster would be simply awesome.

 

I would also like a system where you could pay for dailies or encounter abilities with Endurace or spell slots. The arbitrary limits of "2 shields per rest" are weird. If a Wizard has an ability to create a telekinetic shield, they should be able to do it as often as they need to, with some kind of cost attached.

[Ninjamestari]

The vancian spellcasting generates way too many 'duplicate' spells that essentially do the same thing in general. And sorry abut this, I really can't help myself, I just have to point out again how all those problems could be solved instantly with a properly adjusted mana-system. I feel like mana gets a lot of hate just because it became the standard at one point, and people are too worried about being seen as 'unoriginal' instead of simply focusing on function.

[zimcub]

I feel like mana gets a lot of hate just because it became the standard at one point, and people are too worried about being seen as 'unoriginal' instead of simply focusing on function.

I think mana gets a lot of hate because people mostly imagine the mechanic to revolve around draining and refilling, like in MMOs. If refilling was very scarce (like only with rest) then i don't see why it couldn't function very similar to vancian system.

Although i don't think it would solve the duplicate spells issue. You might want to prefer more such spells because lower tier of buffs could cost less mana and be more appropriate for smaller fights.

The other issue i see with mana spell casting is that you can fall in to a trap where a certain rotation of spells becomes a standard for most fights. Although now that Obsidian wants to go to spell per encounter system anyway, that argument falls apart.

Edited April 10, 2017 by zimcub

[Ninjamestari]

Depends on how you build around the system. If you limit the amount of extra mana you get from levelups to reasonable levels, you don't need to have different tiers of spells at all. There are other ways to work around that issue as well. Also, the standard rotation is the result of poor spell/encounter design, not the mana system. If the encounters are versatile enough and enemies sufficiently unpredictable and different from eachother, standard rotations simply won't be viable, or at the very least won't be very effective.

 

Also, there's no reason to have mana behave differently with different classes; take D&D wizard vs sorceror for example: a wizard might have limited mana but virtually infinite spell selection, while a sorceror could have a very limited spell selection but naturally recharging mana. Mana system is incredibly versatile and there are no limits to how it can be used. It's simply a matter of tailoring the system to the specific goal you have in mind for your game.

[1varangian]

The vancian slot system could easily be replaced by a mana or spell point based system. If mana is only replenished by resting the end result is that the power level of wizads remains the same, just with more flexibilty. Which is a good thing. It makes no sense you can cast a 5th level spell but not a 1st level spell just because you ran out of first level slots. PoE already limits your selection of active spells to a pre-selected 4 per level so no need to limit castable levels arbitrarily on top of that.

[Ninjamestari]

The vancian slot system could easily be replaced by a mana or spell point based system. If mana is only replenished by resting the end result is that the power level of wizads remains the same, just with more flexibilty. Which is a good thing. It makes no sense you can cast a 5th level spell but not a 1st level spell just because you ran out of first level slots. PoE already limits your selection of active spells to a pre-selected 4 per level so no need to limit castable levels arbitrarily on top of that.

And to clarify, mana *is* a spellpoint system mechanically. The only difference is that instead of simple abstraction of spellpoints, mana is tied to the fantasy as an universal magical energy.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Isn't it confirmed that spells for the formerly "vancian" casters will be per-encounter, with a pool of points  you can use to empower them and that regenerate on rest? It's a pretty welcome change for me. Having to ration spells is what keeps me from using priests, wizards and druids to their full potential.

Edited April 10, 2017 by MortyTheGobbo