Reputations versus Values

[Enoch]

"Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."

--Matthew 6:2 (KJV)

 

 

In the most recent Q&A (and elsewhere), Sawyer mentions that they're changing some of the disposition dynamics to reflect only stuff your character has done that is knowable to others.  The example given being that in Pillars 1, a character with Deceptive 4 was actually the lousiest liar around, because everybody knew that (s)he lied a lot.  So they're re-naming "deceptive" to "shady" and, presumably, allowing masterful lies to pass without affecting Reputations. 

 

For the "reputation" element of the Disposition mechanic (i.e., what folks think about the Watcher), this makes sense.  But that's not the only thing that Dispositions affect for some characters-- Priests and Paladins get game-mechanical benefits/penalties from these, too.  The system in Pillars 1 tried to serve two masters in representing both your character's outward reputation and his/her inner values, and Josh is correct in pointing out some of the issues that this caused.  But, I don't see the problem as being wholly solved so long as the Priest/Paladin favored/disfavored dispositions continue to rely on the same variables as the character's public reputation.  Shouldn't the strength of a character's faith or devotion reflect what the character knows and does, rather than just what the outside world knows about his/her actions? 

 

Just to build on the Deception example, above, a Priest of Skaen or Wael has "deceptive" as a favored disposition, and this makes perfect sense as-implemented in the first game-- these deities value misdirection, tricks, and secrets.  However, the ideal deceptions practiced by Skaenites and Waelites would be effective ones, no?  A masterful act of deception to conceal a revolutionary plot or obscure some hidden point of knowledge seems like the kind of action that the game should reward for such a Priest.  Conversely, for a Priest of Eothas, deceptive acts should reflect negatively on the character's devotion, even if nobody ever learns of them.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Enoch

[Madscientist]

So you mean that the watcher needs 2 different reputatons: an internal one and an external one.

The external one shows what others think of him, the internal one shows what he did or what he thinks of himself.

 

example one: You pretend that you saved some people from a monster, but actually you did not do it. Your external reputation becomes more benelovent, because other people think that you are a hero. In your internal reputation, you deception value goes up.

 

example two: You destroy a dam because you know that heavy rain will come and the town will be flooded if the water cannot flow away. Your internal reputation is benelovent. But the villagers are angry because you destroyed their dam. They think you are cruel or aggressive.

 

In most cases, both things will be the same. And one should find other names than internal and external reputation.

[teenparty]

If you are a priest of Wael. the dwarven librarian in the Temple does not believe that you spoke to Wael, because you need reputation in honest.

[Enoch]

So you mean that the watcher needs 2 different reputatons: an internal one and an external one.

The external one shows what others think of him, the internal one shows what he did or what he thinks of himself.

 

example one: You pretend that you saved some people from a monster, but actually you did not do it. Your external reputation becomes more benelovent, because other people think that you are a hero. In your internal reputation, you deception value goes up.

 

example two: You destroy a dam because you know that heavy rain will come and the town will be flooded if the water cannot flow away. Your internal reputation is benelovent. But the villagers are angry because you destroyed their dam. They think you are cruel or aggressive.

 

In most cases, both things will be the same. And one should find other names than internal and external reputation.

Maybe.  The problem is that Obsidian (and, IIRC, Josh in particular) has previously resisted mechanics such as Fallout's Karma that make presumptions regarding the character's intentions.  They've gone to a reputations-only system to get away from all that perpetually problematic "alignmenty" stuff, and presumably feel that this provides sufficient reactivity to player decision-making.  I'm just pointing out the challenges to verisimilitude in also tying the effectiveness of Priest and Paladin abilities to what others think about the player. 

 

Maybe consider having a parenthetical "hidden" value for reputations when the "real truth" diverges from what is known, generally?  This would cover Priest/Paladin abilities, and maybe come up in dialogues when the player talks to entities that can read minds/souls (other Watchers; Gods; maybe Vithrack).  Perhaps also when talking to party members who were there.

 

Lastly, the importance of all of this is going to vary depending on just how often (and how significantly) the game is going to allow the player to do stuff that won't become public knowledge.  And nobody knows the answer to that question right now.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Enoch

[teknoman2]

i'd like to see a more character reaction driven quest system

in witcher 3 i came across a dwarf attacked by 3 bandits and helped him.

then i helped a mercenary settle a debt with his brother in law (a merchant)

then i was asked to get something from a warehouse

the dwarf was guarding the warehouse and because i helped him he let me in to get the item

a worker who saw me come out went to call his boss

the boss was the earlier merchant who let the thing slide because i patched his relationship with the mercenary

later the mercenary was willing to offer the service of his men for another quest

had i done something different in this line of events, things would  have changed in later quests.

something similar they had in Alpha Protocol so they can do it if they want

Edited February 9, 2017 by teknoman2