The Rogue Wish Poll

[Elric Galad]

I wanted to create this thread after debating of rogues once more under following thread :

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90814-pleading-for-rogue-buff-once-more/

 

Basically, the current problems of the Rogue are :

 

- Rogue is the least liked class :

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88890-class-popularity/

 

- Rogue is usually seen as the least powerful class :

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/88395-what-are-the-most-powerful-classes-in-303/

 

- Rogue might be a bit single-trick pony, and a bit bland.

 

 

There are 2 parts in the poll, one for minor tweak for PoE1 content, and one for bigger changes for future PoE2 evolutions. Feel free to express your wishes. You should choose to prioritarize some tweaks or changes over some others.

 

Minor Tweaks :

 

At this phase of the game, it is unlikely to have big changes to current balances. I still believe that a bit of balance to Core rules would be a good thing for the future PoE2, so there still might bit a chance for minor tweaks to happen.

 

I explained why they would be suitable for me in the original thread.

 

Big Changes and Evolutions :

 

For bigger changes, I think they are not likely to happen before PoE2. But there were a lot of nice ideas from the original thread, so I tried to gather them here. I have voluntary separated them from the minor tweaks.

 

The idea behind most of these suggestions (except "Even more Single Target DPS at High level” of course) is also to make rogue a bit more interesting than just a girl/guy that deals big single target damages.

 

So, here are these ideas :

 

---

 

Even more Single Target DPS at High level:

Such as scaling sneak attacks. Single Target DPS is rogue speciality. Let's give him more. This one is pretty straightforward.

 

Some Area of Effect damages:

I really could see a rogue using tricks like grenades, even if I feel AoE damages shouldn't be Rogue Speciality. But you may disagree.

 

Specialization toward temporary Single Target DPS Burst:

Rogue currently has some very high Single Target DPS for very short time, such as Final Blow and Backstab. You may think future improvement should stress even more this aspect, could it would emphasize rogue's assassin role.

 

Backstab rework for better effects for small weapons:

Due to how Backstab mechanism work, it I currently better with big weapons, and even more with firearms. You may think it is unfair, and daggers and stylettos should be the weapon of choice for backstab. This would require a rework on how backstab work, such as better damage multiplicator for small weapons.

 

More ugly and dishonorable tactics :

Rogue should be more than brute force. There should have more dirty tricks such as per encounter traps, feints, or more backstab possibility. Dirty tricks should be based on risk & reward mechanism, and should have very powerful effects when you meet their conditions, that could be hard to trigger.

 

More defensive tricks:

Rogue should never be tank, but I could see them specialized in temporary or conditional defense. They could be specialized in defense against a single target (THEIR target). They could get bonus defense from ennemies with active status (mirroring sneak attack). I could totally see a swashbucker sub-class being able to execute single-target parry, dodge, and various evasions.

 

More interesting Strikes mechanism:

Strikes are currently a bit simple. In many games, Rogue-like class have some kind of combo points or chained strike. Why rogue couldn't have common pool of ressource to manage their strike ? Why can't they have a kind of more interesting mechanism for their attacks ?

 

Special skill with consumable items:

Due to their high accuracy, bonus crits and deep wound, rogue are currently one of the top (probably the top) item users. Rogues have always been very good item users in similar games. Therfore, I think they could get a couple of bonus to their item uses, such as trap throwing, bonus with scrolls, fast potion, or “deep pockets” by default…

In PoE, all classes already have a kind of “Use Any Items” ability.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Elric Galad

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

Rogues are also often associated with bows, throwing weapons or dual wielding small weapons. I think another ranged physical weapons based class would fit in with talents or abilities usable with throwing weapons or bows. Perhaps there can be more rogue talents in Pillars 2 that allow building a ranged rogue that sort of focuses on ranged debuffs/poisons/grenades/thrown weapons. Usable items besides scrolls and potions played a very minor part in PoE1 and i think this part could be improved quite alot. Although different game play wise, Divinity Original Sin Enhanced Edition made a good use of specialized arrows and grenades. Another specialization which is not in the game is something like a armor breaker or a an character that specializes on foregoing resistances. I think abilities that allow to avoid high resistances or to adjust the damage type could also fit for a rogue.

I am not a friend of traps since they either end up useless or right out overpowered most of the time, or they break immersion by highly illogical limitations like placing only one at a time. They also introduce a huge temptation to meta game. 

[Boeroer]

Funny that people vote but only few post something. Maybe because we already discussed that stuff in the previous thread.

[Boeroer]

By the way: who's looking forward to playing a Priest of Skaen/Assassin in PoE2:Deadfire? :dance:

[Dr <3]

By the way: who's looking forward to playing a Priest of Skaen/Assassin in PoE2:Deadfire? :dance:

The most suited Hero to kill a God...

 

If Durance manage to come back in Poe 2 i DO WANT to multiclass him with with Assassin... He is one after all...

Edited February 10, 2017 by Dr <3

[Messier-31]

My main is a rogue, like that class a lot, so no vote from me.

[jsaving]

This is a timely poll as the rogue is by most accounts the worst-designed class in PoE.  But it might be better to first ask what purpose the rogue should serve in PoE and then let the answer to that question guide which specific improvements should be made. 

 

RIght now a lot of people think the rogue's desired niche is single-target DPS and are focusing their improvement suggestions on how to give the rogue more of it.  The problem is that a) several other PoE classes also focus on single-target DPS and b) focusing on single-target DPS is just another way of saying the rogue is a striker, which is true but doesn't justify why the rogue in particular belongs in the game. 

 

As I think about what makes rogues special in books and other RPGs, I come back to the fact that they best understand how to move undetectably, dish out conditions in melee to disable enemies, and leverage group positioning for extra damage.  This would translate into letting them move much faster than other characters while in stealth (possibly even normal movement speed), being immune or at least resistant to engagement (even when out of stealth), having a wide variety of conditions to dole out in melee, and having unique options to deal extra damage based on group positioning (sneak attack).   

 

I'd support just about all the ideas in this poll, but I really hope the devs spend some time thinking about what makes rogues special.  It was really the only "failed class" in PoE, in my opinion at least -- and I really regret that as rogues are my favorite class in most RPGs.

[Elric Galad]

I don't think they are a complete failure. Single Target DPS is an okay specialization, and I find Sneak Attack very nice to use. The whole concept of an offensive warrior requiring positionning micro is really nice, and I always liked Rogue at low level.

 

However, I agree that they are lacking some flavour, some more options, some secondary specialization.

More positionning, more conditional offenses, or maybe conditional defenses would make this class more fun to use.

 

Barbarian, on the other side, is a decent damage soaker and a nice group debuffer.

Rogue single target debuff are not on par in my opinion.

 

 

More stuff for ranged Rogue would be nice, but in a world like PoE, I would prefer Rogue to have some unique abilities with firearms than bows.

Twin arrows make Ranger prevail for bows, I would like Rogue to prevail with guns.

 

They could get some Sniper stuff. This would complete nicely their current melee specialization.

They are probably the best "Quickswitcher class" already. I would say it already work rather well.

 

Firearms DPS is meh. They only excel in opening shots. Therefore, a Firearm specialization won't make them BETTER than ranger at range, just different. And this would be nice.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Would be OK if rogues would get some special ability with crossbows and arbalest. They are more quite than a gun and fit rogues better than guns in my opinion. And they have no lobby so far. Rangers have Twinned Arrows or Powder Burns, wizards have Blast - but nobody can do anything special with crossbows or arbalest. Why not rogue? Could be quickload, could be sniper shot...

Edited February 11, 2017 by Boeroer

[Ganrich]

Would be OK if rogues would get some special ability with crossbows and arbalest. They are more quite than a gun and fit rogues better than guns in my opinion. And they have no lobby so far. Rangers have Twinned Arrows or Powder Burns, wizards have Blast - but nobody can do anything special with crossbows or arbalest. Why not rogue? Could be quickload, could be sniper shot...

Beat me to it. Also, those weapons were given to people that didn't have the time to invest to learn archery which takes a considerable amount of time investment. Guns and xbows can be fired by anyone, and fit the rogue Vs a fighter or ranger who are weapon specialists by nature.

[Elric Galad]

Would be OK if rogues would get some special ability with crossbows and arbalest. They are more quite than a gun and fit rogues better than guns in my opinion. And they have no lobby so far. Rangers have Twinned Arrows or Powder Burns, wizards have Blast - but nobody can do anything special with crossbows or arbalest. Why not rogue? Could be quickload, could be sniper shot...

 

Crossbow and arbalest speciality really suits the rogue for me.

 

But Crossbows and even more Arbalest are closer to guns than to bows.

And Rogue are expert mechanics and are depicted with a lot of gadgets in traditional lore.

 

So I would say that a special ability with all loadable weapons would be really the best choice IMHO.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Sure, but guns already have their place as weapon of choice for limited but hard hitting attacks (FoD, Wounding Shot, Backstab and such) and also have a special modal with Powder Burns. Crossbow and arbalest have nothing. There's no reason to choose a crossbow/arbalest over a bow or over a gun.

My suggestion was more in favor of crossbows than in favor of rogues - but I think crossbows suit a rogue better than guns. Mainly because they are not so loud, which should be benefical for a more sneaky approach - while bows would need a lot of discipline and training to master.

You could also allow Backstab from far away if done with crossbows/arbalest instead of guns (to loud) or bows (not accurate enough for "untrained" rogues).

 

There's also a unique enchantment called "ambushing". It was put on Fellstroke, a pistol in WM. That would also be a suitable ability for rogues that only works with crossbows and arbalests.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[Carados]

To improve rogue and to make him more intresting class to play, they need to improve the stealth mechanics. Rogue should be the assassin who dissapears during the heat of battle and pops behind the next enemy to slice his troath. He should be the party scout who sneaks behind enemy lines and takes out the enemy leader even before the battle starts with few precise strikes. And he is the guy who disables and criples the enemy tanks with ease and dances to the safety underneath their blades.

 

I quess I'm saying, make rogue awesome again. In pillars he was really lackluster class. Rogue should be the stealth expert who deals massive damage with grace and skill. He should be able to put bombs in enemy enemy pockets, place the most crippling traps and deploy the deadliest poisons.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Carados