Bug: Lini has to bury animal companion at the Farmhouse

[Thyraxus]

The "At this Location" text for the Farmhouse says: "When an ally would be discarded, it is buried instead."

But Lini's "Wild Empathy" power says "When you play an ally with the Animal trait, you may recharge it instead of discarding."

 

However, when playing an animal ally at the Farmhouse, it ends up being buried, without a chance to recharge it - but you should have the choice to "recharge or discard" before the Farmhouse rule applies. Until you make your choice whether to discard or to recharge, what happens to the card isn't even determined yet, so the "when an ally would be discarded" condition can not be triggered until this is resolved.

[Longshot11]

The "At this Location" text for the Farmhouse says: "When an ally would be discarded, it is buried instead."

But Lini's "Wild Empathy" power says "When you play an ally with the Animal trait, you may recharge it instead of discarding."

 

However, when playing an animal ally at the Farmhouse, it ends up being buried, without a chance to recharge it - but you should have the choice to "recharge or discard" before the Farmhouse rule applies. Until you make your choice whether to discard or to recharge, what happens to the card isn't even determined yet, so the "when an ally would be discarded" condition can not be triggered until this is resolved.

Wow, that sucks. I'm pretty sure it worked correctly in earlier versions 0_O

[nsr]

i thought the old behavior was a bug specifically fixed in a patch

[nsr]

Here we go, deck 4 release notes:

 

Locations

 

Farmhouse: Allies that were discarded as fuel for character powers are now properly buried.

 

I thought the change was intentional, but now that I read it I suppose the intention is more for Seoni or Seelah's powers which can discard allies.

[Ethics Gradient]

Wow, that sucks. I'm pretty sure it worked correctly in earlier versions 0_O

It actually didn't work correctly earlier.  The Farmhouse-Lini interaction is prime example of the "Golden Rule" in action.

 

If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct. If cards conflict with one another, then Adventure Path cards overrule adventures, adventures overrule scenarios, scenarios overrule locations, locations overrule characters, and characters overrule other card types. Despite this hierarchy, if one card tells that you cannot do something and another card tells you that you can, comply with the card that tells you that you cannot. If a card instructs you to do something impossible, like draw a card from an empty deck, ignore that instruction.

Mike Selinker even posted something addressing this very question.

[Thyraxus]

That is completely non-intuitive.

 

Even the Golden Rule mentioned in the forum post doesn't really apply here, in my opinion. It says: "If cards conflict with one another...". But I don't see a conflict here at all. Whenever Lini plays an ally with the animal trait, she may to choose to do this by recharging it instead of discarding it. So if she does the former, a discard doesn't even actually happen. The Farmhouse rule only cares about discards, and therefore should not even trigger in the first place. It's pretty clear to me, without any contradiction.

[Longshot11]

That is completely non-intuitive.

 

Even the Golden Rule mentioned in the forum post doesn't really apply here, in my opinion. It says: "If cards conflict with one another...". But I don't see a conflict here at all. Whenever Lini plays an ally with the animal trait, she may to choose to do this by recharging it instead of discarding it. So if she does the former, a discard doesn't even actually happen. The Farmhouse rule only cares about discards, and therefore should not even trigger in the first place. It's pretty clear to me, without any contradiction.

^ That.

 

Mike's -by his own words- 'unofficial' call, was later overturned when it was established that when "X happens instead of Y - then Y never happened at all". So, (when choosing to do so!)  Lini never discards her animals for their powers - she directly recharges them, without any interim state of the card that would trigger the Golden Rule and invoke the Farmhouse power.

[Hannibal_PJV]

Grim rule is so cool in the new Archam Horror Lcg. If there it is unclear how to solve situation, use the worst possible solution against the players!

 

But the ofcourse it is Arkham Horror game where you Expect to die horribly, go mad, or be devoured in some mysterious ritual that includes your blood, all of it and more...

 

In anyway this situation is a hard nut for the Computer. The location card is higher in rank compared to the character card.

So the situations start with discarding, the location kicks in. Then character power (recharge) tryes kick in, but there is nothing to recycle because the location is higher in the stack as it should be. The only solution would be a hack that Add recycle button to Linis animals. But I personally don't know the official ansver and the link that Ethick Gradiant provide is the most official I have seen so far. So according that, it works as it should be. In anyway a "fix" requires official statement that game developer Mike Sellinker is/was wrong and that dirty hack to the code that add the recycle icon directly to the Animal cards, when used by Lini... I can see Many new bugs

 

But interesting dilemma indeed!

Edited November 23, 2016 by Hannibal_PJV

[Ethics Gradient]

In anyway this situation is a hard nut for the Computer. The location card is higher in rank compared to the character card.

So the situations start with discarding, the location kicks in. Then character power (recharge) tryes kick in, but there is nothing to recycle because the location is higher in the stack as it should be.

That's my interpretation of how things should work also.  The first part of the "golden rule" sets an order of operations for players or a computer to parse things.   There is no pre-gaming or live text substitution occurring.  Lini's power doesn't rewrite the card in advance (or as its played), it just happens so immediately afterward it can feel that way.

 

---Examples:

 

A character plays a Bear ally and activates the Power: Discard this card to add 2d4 to a combat check.

 

Non-Lini Character:

a) Card is discarded; character adds 2d4.

 

Lini:

a) Wild Empathy triggered via "When you play an ally with the animal trait..." and the attempted discard.

b) Player offered a recharge instead; Lini adds 2d4.

 

Non-Lini at the Farmhouse:

a) Location Power triggered by Bear text: "Discard this card..."

b) Card is buried; character adds 2d4.

 

Lini at the Farmhouse:

a1) Wild Empathy triggered via "When you play an ally with the animal trait..." and the attempted discard.

a2) Location Power triggered by Bear text: "Discard this card..."

b) The app sees two triggered powers, and attempts to evaluate them by Golden Rule order.

c1) Location Power first: Bear is buried instead of discarded.

c2) Wild Empathy next: No longer applicable.  This power does not apply to cards being buried.

d) Bear remains buried; Lini adds 2d4.

[mccrispy]

 

That is completely non-intuitive.

 

Even the Golden Rule mentioned in the forum post doesn't really apply here, in my opinion. It says: "If cards conflict with one another...". But I don't see a conflict here at all. Whenever Lini plays an ally with the animal trait, she may to choose to do this by recharging it instead of discarding it. So if she does the former, a discard doesn't even actually happen. The Farmhouse rule only cares about discards, and therefore should not even trigger in the first place. It's pretty clear to me, without any contradiction.

^ That.

 

Mike's -by his own words- 'unofficial' call, was later overturned when it was established that when "X happens instead of Y - then Y never happened at all". So, (when choosing to do so!)  Lini never discards her animals for their powers - she directly recharges them, without any interim state of the card that would trigger the Golden Rule and invoke the Farmhouse power.

 

Do you have a reference for this? Edited November 23, 2016 by mccrispy

[Hannibal_PJV]

Yep, it would be nice. Of course devs have direct contact to Mike and other Paizo staff, so They can check it out much easily.

[Longshot11]

 

 

That is completely non-intuitive.

 

Even the Golden Rule mentioned in the forum post doesn't really apply here, in my opinion. It says: "If cards conflict with one another...". But I don't see a conflict here at all. Whenever Lini plays an ally with the animal trait, she may to choose to do this by recharging it instead of discarding it. So if she does the former, a discard doesn't even actually happen. The Farmhouse rule only cares about discards, and therefore should not even trigger in the first place. It's pretty clear to me, without any contradiction.

^ That.

 

Mike's -by his own words- 'unofficial' call, was later overturned when it was established that when "X happens instead of Y - then Y never happened at all". So, (when choosing to do so!)  Lini never discards her animals for their powers - she directly recharges them, without any interim state of the card that would trigger the Golden Rule and invoke the Farmhouse power.

 

Do you have a reference for this?

 

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t0h7?putrid-ooze#17

 

EDIT: Note Vic's example with armors, and just apply it to Lini VS Farmhouse to see why Ethics Gradient's post above gives incorrect picture of what actually happens.

 

Of course, OTOH, Hannibal is exactly right the the app implementation of Lini's power does first discard the ally and only then allow you to recharge (which would account why the app buries your ally, as the code equivalent of the Golden Rule probably kicks in). However,  there *were* previous builds that Lini's power was properly implemented (yes, the ally was still shown as discarded, but then you got to recharge it before being buried). I don't know if the current situation is an accidental  new version bug, or if a dev decided to change it based on Mike's old post.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Longshot11

[Ethics Gradient]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t0h7?putrid-ooze#17

 

EDIT: Note Vic's example with armors, and just apply it to Lini VS Farmhouse to see why Ethics Gradient's post above gives incorrect picture of what actually happens.

Vic's example would be more applicable if it was in regard to a location, not a bane.  The issue with the Farmhouse, is that it is its power/effects should process first when an Ally is played.

 

It took a little while for the gameplay clarification to come out, but there is a temporary limbo when you discard a card that exists between your hand and the discard pile.  In this short space, Lini's power usually activates and takes over.  But at the Farmhouse, the Location Powers reroute the card to the bury pile instead.

 

Mummy's Mask has this explanation under "Playing Cards":

When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play cards by performing any other actions, set them aside while you process their effects. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead; set it aside until you resolve the check that determines whether or not you recharge it. Do what each card requires in the order you set them aside. While set aside, a card does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else.

Anyway, where's @269Hawkmoon when you need him?  I fear Obsidian probably has him imprisoned somewhere trying to untangle all the rules issues.  

[Hannibal_PJV]

Help us Obi-Wan Hawkmoon! We need your help!

Edited November 23, 2016 by Hannibal_PJV

[Longshot11]

 

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t0h7?putrid-ooze#17

 

EDIT: Note Vic's example with armors, and just apply it to Lini VS Farmhouse to see why Ethics Gradient's post above gives incorrect picture of what actually happens.

Vic's example would be more applicable if it was in regard to a location, not a bane.  The issue with the Farmhouse, is that it is its power/effects should process first when an Ally is played.

 

It took a little while for the gameplay clarification to come out, but there is a temporary limbo when you discard a card that exists between your hand and the discard pile.  In this short space, Lini's power usually activates and takes over.  But at the Farmhouse, the Location Powers reroute the card to the bury pile instead.

 

Mummy's Mask has this explanation under "Playing Cards":

When you reveal a card, it does not leave your hand. When you display a card, it leaves your hand immediately. When you play cards by performing any other actions, set them aside while you process their effects. For example, a spell might tell you to discard it, then allow you to succeed at a check to recharge it instead; set it aside until you resolve the check that determines whether or not you recharge it. Do what each card requires in the order you set them aside. While set aside, a card does not count as being in your hand, your discard pile, your deck, or anywhere else.

Anyway, where's @269Hawkmoon when you need him?  I fear Obsidian probably has him imprisoned somewhere trying to untangle all the rules issues.  

 

I'm familiar with the limbo rule you talk about, and if it was indeed the case you would be right. The fact is, since "discard" never happens for Lini (because she recharges *INSTEAD*), per Vic's quote, the card never goes to the limbo in the first place - you pay the *cost* for playing the power by recharging the card, not by discarding it - and before you play the card, there's nothing for the Farmhouse to take effect on.

 

In essence,  Vic's quote means exactly that Lini "rewrites" the card, as you put it.

 

At any rate, I can see we'll have to agree to disagree pending an official word

[Ethics Gradient]

At any rate, I can see we'll have to agree to disagree pending an official word

Arguing about rule interpretations that barely come up or rarely matter is the best part of this game!

 

Anyway, I totally see how you could be right too.  Occasionally vague rules is what makes the tabletop version interesting.  When things get hazy, suddenly everyone is a rules expert who graduated at the top of their class from the Pathfinder School of Law.  

Edited November 23, 2016 by Ethics Gradient

[mccrispy]

I think that there's a similar issue with Boons that get "Recharge Instead" for Arcane/Divine. I'm pretty sure that I've been surprised recently when a card got Buried by a Location Effect (or maybe Wildcard?) when I was expecting it to get Recharged.

[Irgy]

All of the "recharge instead of discard" powers are implemented as a check which is automatically passed, and this triggers all manner of location effects and so on. This is just one particular example of a much larger mess. This example at least is a little debateable, the example which is more clearly wrong is at Shimmering Veils of Pride, where it makes you recharge another card even though you never made a check.

 

Except for Sajan's recharge blessings power. That one is implemented correctly. Not just are the blessings never considered discarded, but the interface lets (indeed forces) you to put them under his deck instead of pretending that they're going somewhere else first.

 

Oh and Seoni's spell (and item) recharging power is correct too, not because it's like Sajan but because it isn't. Hers is the only one worded as automatically succeeding at a check to recharge, rather than just recharging it.

 

But the rest (The "Reload" power on Harsk and Sajan, Valeros' weapon recharge, Merisiel's role power blessing recharge, Lini's recharge animals ability) are all doing it the wrong way.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Irgy

[mccrispy]

So what you're saying is that the Devs used lazy coding techniques to simulate Recharge Instead by auto-passing the Recharge Check instead of coding a Rechard Instead method? Niiiiice.

[Longshot11]

So what you're saying is that the Devs used lazy coding techniques to simulate Recharge Instead by auto-passing the Recharge Check instead of coding a Rechard Instead method? Niiiiice.

Unlikely. As I said, Lini's power *used to* work correctly in the Farm - so the code for it already exists apparently.

 

OTOH, Lini's bug seems to be consistent with the bug revealed at the Veils of Pride (described by Irgy) above, so I have to wander if Lini fell victim to a game-wide change of Recharge ppowers code, or is it a bug that somehow got replicated through half a dozen heroes...

[Ethics Gradient]

Unlikely. As I said, Lini's power *used to* work correctly in the Farm - so the code for it already exists apparently.

It may take some digging, but I think that change was a rooted in a "Golden Rule" hierarchy issue, not a shift in how recharges function.  At the time, the Farmhouse was the only location that had a possible conflict with Character Powers, so the "fix" was to ensure that Location Powers proc first during card resolution.

 

The biggest shift in Recharge methods came along with the Merisiel Inspired Dexterity "fix."  That implemented some pretty aggressive recharge checks to ensure all cards get back to where they belong... and as a result you now have to do silly things like recharge your cards after defeating the villain and winning the scenario.

 

So what you're saying is that the Devs used lazy coding techniques to simulate Recharge Instead by auto-passing the Recharge Check instead of coding a Rechard Instead method? Niiiiice.

It's not entirely lazy.  Almost all the character/location powers work as temporary modifiers to card behaviors, rules, etc...  

Some power allows you to recharge a recharge a normally non-rechargeable card?  Just override the empty recharge flag with the desired behavior.   

 

What's actually pretty surprising is how well the rule framework generally holds up.  Yeah, yeah, tons of bugs and non-intuitive behavior... but it is still very playable without every conceivable situation requiring it's own special-snowflake bespoke code to back it up.  

 

Parsing the all Pathfinder rules and interactions into something that code can handle is the sort of task you give to an employee you never want to see again.

[Longshot11]

 

 

The biggest shift in Recharge methods came along with the Merisiel Inspired Dexterity "fix."  That implemented some pretty aggressive recharge checks to ensure all cards get back to where they belong... and as a result you now have to do silly things like recharge your cards after defeating the villain and winning the scenariо

 

I have no idea how this fix made it so I can now recharge Meri's blessings on *every* check, not just Dexterity, but I'd rather they don't fix it and I self-police myself to discard them on non-Dex checks, rather than go back to banishing my blessings...

[elcoderdude]

Siding with Longshot based on the cited Vic quote.  I don't see the Golden Rule applying, because the ally was never discarded. If you do A instead, you did not do B.

[mccrispy]

Right with you on the Merisiel Blessing thing. Really confuses the heck out of me when I get to recharge on Exploring or (IIRC) on boosting other Characters. It's broken. But as I can't opt out of the difficulty enhancing bugs, I'm happy to take the smooth with the rough and not opt out of the Nerfing bugs.

[Irgy]

Just further to what I said before, the Farmhouse itself should work differently as well. Currently you discard the ally, then it sneakily moves to the buried pile. If the Farmhouse worked like Sajan you would drag the ally to the buried pile in the first place.

 

Now I will admit there's one downside to this, which is that sometimes you can get confused about where to put the card or why it's going there. This happens to me a lot when blessings match the top card of the blessings deck (which, come to think of it, is another power that works the right way!). But what I want to make clear is that a player who's confused about why they can't put a card where they're expecting to put it will be prompted to look around and think about what's happening, and work it out. This is, in my view, still strictly better than the case where they just put the card where they were expecting and then get surprised when it ends up somewhere else.

 

Of course what would be super-duper awesome is if the card text itself was highlighted in some way to indicate it's being effectively replaced.

 

One other down side of the Sajan way is that there may at times be a card which normally has every power move it to a different place, but when one of those powers is modified there will be (for instance) two powers which recharge it. This is a case which is already handled in the interface but I would expect it's only fixed for the specific cards where it comes up, not for the general case where it only occurs under unusual conditions. Thus the potential for bugs where you can't choose which power to use (or you can but you get blank text on the box to select which - this actually really happened once in the past!). But now that I've pointed this out it can be handled correctly I'm sure!

Edited November 24, 2016 by Irgy

[Longshot11]

And there you go - finally, an official confirmation:

 

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tk8q?Few-Rule-Clarifications#49