Dual warhammering Fighter chap

[PangaeaACDC]

Hi guys.

 

Been thinking about having another go with the game lately, despite having an almost-completed Cipher going a few months back. Looked around the wiki and here, and oddly enough got a hankering for a fighter. Usually I prefer wizards as they can do more varied stuff. But fighters are all right too, if not as 'fun' to play (imo, of course).

 

Been playing around with attributes and can't really decide on what's most sensible. Help?

 

The idea is to have him dual wielding warhammers, with a nod towards Baldur's Gate. I like weapons with two damage types, so I can care less about immunities, and they look pretty sturdy. Some cracking unique ones too. Not a fan of not having "conversations skills", but can't get plenty there while keeping him a mean bastard. Am also worried about low Will, as a mind buggered mean fighter isn't fun to have ravaging your own party (like against those annoying insta-hitting "flowers").

 

I've pumped up Dexterity here, as I figured that even with decent armour, he can wield those hammers at a half-decent rate.

 

Dumb as a brick, but something had to give

 

Currently:

 

MIG 20

CON 10

DEX 18

PER 16

INT 4

RES 10

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by PangaeaACDC

[FluxWing]

Only one real answer: Lady of Pain

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80748-class-build-lady-of-pain-high-speed-heavy-armored-dps-fighter/

 

It is a very good core recipe. Then you can alter it to your preferred flavour, add some chocolate-chip, rum-raisin or lemon curd etc.

I went for human with dual-wielding 1h-swords for RP reasons when I first tried out a DPS fighter. It worked out great.

 

And everything is covered, from ranged, melee and even tanking. One of the many must-reads on this forum.

[Boeroer]

Dual wielding war hammers is good. You already named the reasons: great uniques, two damage types.

Take Charge later on. It's superawesome - especially when dual wielding. When arriving at the target you will not only deal the "AoE in a line" crush damage of Charge, but also deliver a full attack. Most normal foes die instantly. 

[PangaeaACDC]

Cheers guys. Good read that, and fairly close to what I had. Don't have White March so won't be able to pick some of the equipment, and I wouldn't be able to sacrifice Eder either, but a good guide nevertheless.

 

Party could be pretty heavy on fighters with main guy, Eder and Pallegina, so will be interesting to see how that pans out.

 

I was unsure whether to go for CON, PER or RES, but landed on PER for one speech skill (for RP reasons) and it also gives some combat benefits. I figured some extra accuracy could be useful. With the character being a fighter, endurance/health should still be okay. Main issue is the low intelligence and therefore very low Will. Bound to bite me in the arse, but then I always seem to struggle with Will anyway, so maybe it won't matter a great deal whether it sucks, or sucks a lot.

 

Only arrived in Gilded Vale so don't even have war hammers yet, but I do look forward to see how this character pans out, and intend to do some role playing too, if I can force myself away from a goody-twoshoes approach.

 

 

 

Btw: Confident Aim is fixed now, right? Would like to build this guy as a high-damage dealer, while Eder soaks up pressure, but prior to 3.04 I read Confident Aim was bugged to hell and back.

 

Speaking of Modals, what do people prefer or suggest for a dual wielder?

Edited November 19, 2016 by PangaeaACDC

[KDubya]

I'd look at getting Intellect back up to a 10. Fighter's have lots of duration based abilities that'd be gutted with a super low intellect. Unless you are planning a build that uses entirely different abilities than the more common ones, then it can work.

 

As far as attack speed goes dual wielding and the two weapon fighting alone will get you pretty fast in attack speed. Adding in the cross class frenzy (which has its duration controlled by Intellect) will get you closer to zero recovery.

[Braven]

Dual wielding war hammers is good. You already named the reasons: great uniques, two damage types.

 

Take Charge later on. It's superawesome - especially when dual wielding. When arriving at the target you will not only deal the "AoE in a line" crush damage of Charge, but also deliver a full attack. Most normal foes die instantly.

Unless they changed something, charge doesn't use weapons. It works like a spell and always does crush, even if you are holding a bow or spear. When I did my glass Tsunami build, charge only did a single crush attack to each enemy in the charge path (I had duel weapons). The base damage for charge is very high, and when combined with high Might, it does a lot of damage and is very much worth it. You will use it all the time because it is twice per encounter. Sadly it is worthless against enemies immune to crush (one of the toughest boss enemy is).

 

For war hammers, there is a really good one called "Strike Hard" that can be bought later in the game. Arguably one of the best weapons in the game because it can dramatically increase your attack speed with the right combination of gear and helps accuracy. Also, being a soldier weapon, weapon focus/master/specialization will also carry over to the most damaging ranged weapons, in case you like to start off with a gunshot.

 

Regardless of your build, I think high Might and high Intellect are most important. All the core fighter abilities benefit a grest deal from both, unless you only pick passives. The two best ones you can't avoid taking and help a great deal throughout the game: knockdown and constant recovery. Without high int your (up to 4) knockdowns per encounter won't last nearly as long and constant recovery will expire long before the battle ends. You really need those two abilities to compensate for your lower defenses and it is a waste to nerf them so badly with minimized intelligence. I think it is better to lower perception, con, and resolve, which have minimal impact on your build. You don't need to completely tank them, but around 8 is just fine. With the right (easy to obtain) gear to compensate, you could completely minimize any of those 3 stats without any really noticeable harm. I have done so solo and with a party, they are even less needed.

 

For modals, don't bother with the fighter ones. However, "vulnerable attack" is very good for duel-wielders. Late game you can consider adding savage attack. I consider that one optional and a low priority. Vulnerable Attack is well worth the speed penalty and is particularly noticable early on so I recommend it as one of your first two talents.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

I don't know if they changed something sice you played your fighter, but read again what I wrote. It doesn't use weapon damage for the AoE effect (by AoE I mean the line from starting point to target). But when you arrive you will do an additional Full Attack. It doesn't say that int the description though. This combo severely damages the target or kills it. The rest of the enemies you cross "only" gets damaged by the charge's crush damage. This makes it one of the best "caster slayer" abilities there is. Operating behind enemy lines is fun with such a fighter (if he's also sturdy enough). I used it in my last playthrough with Tall Grass and it was aweseome. However, it's even better with dual wielding because of what I said.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[peddroelm]

charge does add the full weapon attack at destination and is glorious. Only "downside" is that is a high level  lategame ability .  See a few posts below

 

I cannot fathom fighters without ridiculous INT score. Their best ability which they get at creation, Disciplined Barrage requires it. Other fighter abilities also benefit greatly from it.  Yes it suppresses all sorts of other accuracy bonuses (paladin aura/potions/scroll of valor/etc) but it has instant cast and potentially "long" duration.

With it the fighter will lead the party in crit department and also enhance the power of his other abilities  (knockdown will be very had to dodge..). It also makes the fighter a scary scroll caster if you need to use them (crazzy accuracy and confident aim) .

Edited November 21, 2016 by peddroelm

[Boeroer]

I agree that high INT is great for fighters. It also prolongs your Constant Recovery and is very benefical if you want to use Clear Out, Triggered Immunity and Unbending.

[Braven]

I don't know if they changed something sice you played your fighter, but read again what I wrote. It doesn't use weapon damage for the AoE effect (by AoE I mean the line from starting point to target). But when you arrive you will do an additional Full Attack. It doesn't say that int the description though. This combo severely damages the target or kills it. The rest of the enemies you cross "only" gets damaged by the charge's crush damage. This makes it one of the best "caster slayer" abilities there is. Operating behind enemy lines is fun with such a fighter (if he's also sturdy enough). I used it in my last playthrough with Tall Grass and it was aweseome. However, it's even better with dual wielding because of what I said.

It certainly didn't do that previously. Does the targeted enemy get the charge "crush damage" as well as the full attack? If not, then the total damage is probably similar. When I played, the target of the charge got the same crush attack as the enemies in the path and it did absolutely nothing against that crush immune dragon except give me a recovery bar.

 

I found it very effective for instantly reaching and killing backrow casters. It is the best fighter ability and with 2x per encounter it might be better than even heart of fury since you are killing the most annoying enemies with it and the AOE can be substantial if you can line them up well. Too bad it is not available until level 13.

 

Knock downs are also full attacks which benefit duel-wielder. Start feeling like a rogue once you get four of them per encounter.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Braven

[PangaeaACDC]

Sounds like having low intelligence was a not-so-bright move. But I can always re-spec if it becomes too troublesome. Perhaps I should have evened it out with something else, like for instance 7 INT and 7 RES instead, since I kind of want to keep at least one conversation skill, and PER also gives accuracy bonus.

 

I sort of like the low intelligence from a RP perspective, though. Will need to get some levels under the belt before making a decision I think.

 

Am only level 3 so far, and have taken weapon focus soldier and confident aim. DR from Vulnerable attack looks very handy, so I'll pick up that at some point, preferably soon.

 

Don't have White March, so can't use Charge if it's at level 13. Will probably buy it at some point, but not for full price (and never at shteam).

[PangaeaACDC]

Tested with paying for a re-spec (blowing all our money on it). Decent intelligence means better knockdowns and recovery, and slightly wider crucible of the soul -- but at the cost of every combat/defensive skill except will to be worse. Is that really worth it?

 

Also means I can basically forget about conversation checks, unless metagaming hard and buffing something fierce. The character is a bit more balanced though.

 

Currently have a great sword, and +2 dexterity gloves (and +5 to all four defensive skills)

 

 

[Braven]

It isn't terrible having low int. It just makes some abilities very weak, but that is fine if you don't plan on using them much. Any allocation of stats are about equally good if you are not actively looking for specific synergies with equipment. If you go with low int, I would stick with as many non-duration abilities as you can. Charge, confident aim, and weapon specialization, for example, don't use INT at all. Barrage and stalwart defense should be avoided since they won't last long enough to make much of an impact.

 

While it seems like INT lowers your combat skills, it doesn't if you take abilities like Barrage and stalwart defense. Barrage provides as much accuracy as 20 points of Perception, and the stalwart defense is like 20 points of resolve (and 20 to will, fortitude, and reflex). They are every encounter and instant cast with no recovery. If utilized, you more than make up for the missing stats. CON doesn't matter much because constant recovery will quickly regain your endurance (particularly if stacked with healing multiplier items and the survival bonus) and health can be regained with binding wounds talent (if you don't rest often). If you get hit hard by a high damage crit, you have an ability to auto-revive.

 

Another reason that INT is hard to give up is that there are no items that increase durations. However, there are tons of spells, talents, items, and weapons that buff accuracy and defenses. By the late game, the accuracy/defense stats don't matter much for combat because they are just one of many drops in a bucket.

 

It is true that INT doesn't really fully shine until late game (when you have tons of things with durations). To completely min-max, you could start with low INT and then retrain later to max INT. Obviously, that is not good for roleplaying.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Braven

[Boeroer]

Yes, it combines the crush damage of charge with the full attack. There isn't even an animation for the full attack - you will just see the red numbers popping and can read the info in the combat log.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Boeroer

[K Galen B]

You should probably be able to drop some Dexterity since you're using two weapons, particularly as a fighter. Two Weapon Style & Armored Grace should help keep you attacking fast.

[PangaeaACDC]

Don't think I'll re-spec once again, as I've played further and hate to replay parts I've already gone through. Thanks for the advice to increase intelligence though. I can see the use in it now, particularly as I'm actively using Disciplined Barrage, which I hadn't even chosen before. I also like that the attributes are move evenly spread, although it comes at the cost of forgoing all conversation skills.

 

Currently only playing on Normal, which guys can probably play blind, but Hard was a bit rough in places last time through, so figured I'll start on Normal and maybe up it later if it becomes too easy.

 

Would be nice if you could offer some feedback on party composition and weapon choices. Have never played with Hiravias before, but think I will this time. Druid spells actually look pretty darn good, and there is some healing in there too.

 

Thought currently are roughly:

 

1) Fighter dual wielding war hammers (main character). I'm thinking the weapon (soldier) specialisations, and probably Clear out. Have taken Into the fray before, but it was kind of 'meh' so may skip that one. Can be useful for messing up mages, though. Have taken Vulnerable Attack, which looks very useful, especially for a dual wielder. Later on will take Two weapon style, and Armoured Grace looks useful too.

 

2) Eder, which I previously have preferred to equip with shield and sword (Whispers of Yenwood). Am thinking the same again, as it's good equipment for a tank.

 

3) Aloth. Blast talents and eventually the soulbound scepter/rod/whatever. Really like the Haewanes and am glad it's available without White March.

 

4) Grieving Mother. Really like this mysterious character, and the Cipher. Guess she's not really sturdy enough to dual wield sabres for instance, so better to equip her with Blunderbus or Pistol. Didn't take the Antipathetic field as I always have problems with it busting up my own crew. Really wish these beams were Foe only.

 

5) Hiravias. Never used Druids in PoE, so unsure how best to use him, but the spells look pretty nice, and I like the sound of some of those damage spells. Am thinking he can be used as a healer of sorts too, as I've kicked out Kana and may go with Pallegina instead of Durance too (I like her). What are good weapon and talent/ability choices for him? So far I've taken the two fire-damage ones. Will use him for finding traps, as that fits from a RP perspective. Spear (and shield?) fits from a RP perspective too, so maybe that?

 

6) Pallegina. Think I've used a great sword on her previously, and may do that again, as it kind of fits. That would mean Eder as tank, and Pallegina and main guy as damage dealers up close and personal. I like 'passive' abilities for less micromanagement, so will probably go for Zealous Focus, and Inspiring Triumph is neat too. Without a priest, I should probably take Lay on Hands early on. Is Critical Focus and the faith talents worth it? Have taken them before, especially critical focus, but 5% isn't much...

[peddroelm]

Managed to take a bit of closer look to Charge. It DOES NOT add a full attack at target destination like full attack abilities do. 

 

A proper full attack ability gets ACC bonuses from weapon focus (+6) , on weapon ACC (up to a LOT) and 1*LVL ACC for abilities , OFF hand strikes FIRST without recovery between attacks (but will play the attack animations).

 

Charge will hit the destination target with the 2 weapons, MAIN HAND strikes first WITHOUT ACC bonuses from weapon focus (+6) and on weapon ACC (up to a LOT) and then the charge "weapon"  attack that as per usually hits WITHOUT ACC bonuses from weapon focus (+6) and on weapon ACC (up to a LOT)  but AT LEAST it gets the 1*LVL ACC for abilities. At least the attacks seem to hit INSTANTLY without extra animation .  (just charge recovery after landing at destination)

 

So the accuracy difference between Charge's full attack simulacrum and proper Full attack (ex knockdown) abilities at character level 15  is between (21 and 41!! ACC). 

 

Minor saving grace is Disciplined barrage that can help those hits land .. (makes disciplined barrage even more MANDATORY than it already is).

To clarify Disciplined barrage applies to full attack abilities and all charge attacks but the accuracy difference noted above remains.

 

Another minor bonus is vulnerable attack DR penetration applies to all components of charge attack. ( Doesn't for all abilities you'd expect it to work for example torment's reach cone hits ..). This makes me suspect charge might apply Chanter fire lash aura  burn damage (a lot in case of crits) like flagellant's path (used ?) to do . (to test)

Edited November 21, 2016 by peddroelm

[Boeroer]

Ha, so my Tall Grass was indeed a great weapon for charge. I can't recall I ever missed with the follow-up attack though. Maybe because of Disciplined Barrage.

[Braven]

I feel like the full attack after charge is a bug.  After all, it doesn't behave like a full attack, is not in the ability notes, and there are no indications of the change in patch notes.

[Boeroer]

Maybe. But it's there and it's good. It's not overpowered though because it's only 2/encounter. Charge itself would be good even without this added attack. But honestly fighters are not really among the most powerful classes out there no matter the build - so it's ok that they have this great late game ability. I mean compare Charge to Heart of Fury, The Dragon Thrashed, Sacred Immolation and all the powerful spells that casters get at the highest levels. You wouldn't want to take away that additional attack from Charge if you look at those competitors. 

[Braven]

Maybe, and yes, in theory a super tank chanter with passive damage aura beats anything.  But, for standard attacking without a lot of cheesy moves, I think Fighter is the best class (spell caster novas excluded).  Sure, it is encounter limited, but I don't think that matters because once half of an encounter is dead from knockdowns and charge, the rest is just clean up duty that can be done with auto-attacking.  The dangerous threats are gone.  I like fighter the best because they are so hard to kill and they can start off really strong since all of their abilities are instant cast, pretty much.

 

Currently, I am working on a cipher build that just self-buffs to crazy high deflection (with long-lasting enemy accuracy de-buffs and defensive self buffs).  But that is a whole lot more work than just fighter which passively is quite good without doing anything.  And isn't good until level 16, really.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Braven

[PangaeaACDC]

Discussion changed to about Charge, so figured I'd quote the post in case people missed it.

 

Got any advice or comments about the party composition and weapon/talent choices? I particularly wonder about what to do with Hiravias and Pallegina. Haven't picked up Pallegina yet, but it was the intention.

 

Would be nice if you could offer some feedback on party composition and weapon choices. Have never played with Hiravias before, but think I will this time. Druid spells actually look pretty darn good, and there is some healing in there too.

 

Thought currently are roughly:

 

1) Fighter dual wielding war hammers (main character). I'm thinking the weapon (soldier) specialisations, and probably Clear out. Have taken Into the fray before, but it was kind of 'meh' so may skip that one. Can be useful for messing up mages, though. Have taken Vulnerable Attack, which looks very useful, especially for a dual wielder. Later on will take Two weapon style, and Armoured Grace looks useful too.

 

2) Eder, which I previously have preferred to equip with shield and sword (Whispers of Yenwood). Am thinking the same again, as it's good equipment for a tank.

 

3) Aloth. Blast talents and eventually the soulbound scepter/rod/whatever. Really like the Haewanes and am glad it's available without White March.

 

4) Grieving Mother. Really like this mysterious character, and the Cipher. Guess she's not really sturdy enough to dual wield sabres for instance, so better to equip her with Blunderbus or Pistol. Didn't take the Antipathetic field as I always have problems with it busting up my own crew. Really wish these beams were Foe only.

 

5) Hiravias. Never used Druids in PoE, so unsure how best to use him, but the spells look pretty nice, and I like the sound of some of those damage spells. Am thinking he can be used as a healer of sorts too, as I've kicked out Kana and may go with Pallegina instead of Durance too (I like her). What are good weapon and talent/ability choices for him? So far I've taken the two fire-damage ones. Will use him for finding traps, as that fits from a RP perspective. Spear (and shield?) fits from a RP perspective too, so maybe that?

 

6) Pallegina. Think I've used a great sword on her previously, and may do that again, as it kind of fits. That would mean Eder as tank, and Pallegina and main guy as damage dealers up close and personal. I like 'passive' abilities for less micromanagement, so will probably go for Zealous Focus, and Inspiring Triumph is neat too. Without a priest, I should probably take Lay on Hands early on. Is Critical Focus and the faith talents worth it? Have taken them before, especially critical focus, but 5% isn't much...

 

[Ben No.3]

Without a priest, Pallegina and Hiravias will be your supporters and healers, so I'd maybe try to protect them well. Consider using pallegina as a tank... She does the job quite well.

 

Hiravias... I really like building him as a spiritshift centered Druid. Extremely powerful. Outside of spiritshift, I don't think you should put him on the frontline... Spiritshift eats up quite a few talents, and you'll need him also as a healer. If you really want him melee and like the hunter theme, maybe have him wielding a pike outside of spiritshift and attack as a second row character? My personal recommendation for wildstrike is shock, greater shock and heart of the storm. Because, well, some of the Druids best spells deal shock damage.

 

For GM, if you go with blunderbuss, I'd definitely also go for pen shot, as extra DR bypass is very useful with a blunderbuss. And of course both whip talents.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Boeroer]

Pallegina is a lot of fun if you build her around missiles, blunderbusses and Penetrating Shot to maximize DR bypass. Add Ryona's Vambraces later. Her Wrath of the Five Suns is a great opener and if you follow up with two FoD blunderbuss shots and maybe add some Minor and Prestidigitator's Missiles from items, scrolls and talents she can do really nice burst damage and take out casters quickly before switching so weapon & outworn buckler support mode. All those things do profit from ranged DR bypass. Add Scion of Flame, Intense Flames, burning lash on the blunderbusses and later Sacred Immolation and she will combine superb burst damage and sustained short-ranged dps while being tanky. Try to target enemies with low burn DR because lashes like from FoD with blunderbusses don't profit from Pen. Shot when they have to overcome burn DR.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Boeroer

[PangaeaACDC]

Thanks, a lot to think about and consider in there, and I'm intrigued at equipping Pallegina with something else than a great sword. She can't get Ryona's Vambrace - I looked it up and it's a White March item.

 

What does FoD mean?

 

The Outbuckler looks like a sweeeet item, so I should probably go and pick it up. That, plus some one-hander, and she'll be pretty mean.

 

A little downside to this party is that it's pretty crowded at the front, with soon four melee characters (main fighter, Eder, shapeshifted Hiravias, and Pallegina). Intended to use Pallegina as a tank/damage dealer, as she's adept at that, but if it continues to be a bit crowded, perhaps having her wreak havoc with ranged is better.