Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

 

I'd say the refugees and importance of the European Union as both a political and economic union of common interest as well as its role in peacekeeping is pretty real. As is the EUs state of instability that is not exactly helped by with Brexit

I am getting lost, what is your point? Why do you want to govern other people who don't wish it? You agree with Merkel that you want refugees illegal immigrants as benefit to your country - yet you try to stuff them into other countries which don't wish them. Whole Germany is walking contradiction in EU

My point is, the refugees need help, and we, as in the entire EU, are in a position that allows us to help. So in my opinion, it is the only right think to do (especially for countries like Germany, France, te Scandinavians, and until recently Britain). Besides, I already pointed out how the EU will gain from the refugees within a few decades. Two or three maybe.

 

Further, I believe that a lack of education regarding the EU and its function as well as its actions leads to people to blame many problems on the EU that are often not directly or even not at all related with the EU. People do not realise anymore how much stability and growth the EU provides, they take it as given. This created a dangerous situation where right winged parties gain more and more support, and Brexit only enhances that further. Why in a situation with many immigrants a strong right wing is not ideal I don't think I need to point out.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[redneckdevil]

I do have a question about the refugees in the EU, is it to "help" them or is it because they are in a bad position so the EU basically gets "cheaper" labor while looking like it's actually doing "good"?

I mean the EU doesn't get to use this good deed as a tax write off since they are the bosses of themselves. And the EU is basically about economics, so using the "good" deed of helping them out from a business standpoint....sorry here in America, during our biggest immigration acceptance in the past, immigrants were viewed as extra votes and cheap labor.

Question is, from a business stand point, what is the bottom dollar to helping these refugees? Don't think like a citizen who is viewing this morally, think as a business stand point and think "WHY" they are pushing these refugees.

 

 

Just saying helping the refugees because they need help is falling on deaf ears because a lot of us have been hearing the same line from our countries and know it's a pile of **** reason and not the reason why it's happening. Since this isn't America, I'm asking WHY are these refugees so important to the bottom dollar to the EU?

[Meshugger]

I do have a question about the refugees in the EU, is it to "help" them or is it because they are in a bad position so the EU basically gets "cheaper" labor while looking like it's actually doing "good"?

I mean the EU doesn't get to use this good deed as a tax write off since they are the bosses of themselves. And the EU is basically about economics, so using the "good" deed of helping them out from a business standpoint....sorry here in America, during our biggest immigration acceptance in the past, immigrants were viewed as extra votes and cheap labor.

Question is, from a business stand point, what is the bottom dollar to helping these refugees? Don't think like a citizen who is viewing this morally, think as a business stand point and think "WHY" they are pushing these refugees.

 

 

Just saying helping the refugees because they need help is falling on deaf ears because a lot of us have been hearing the same line from our countries and know it's a pile of **** reason and not the reason why it's happening. Since this isn't America, I'm asking WHY are these refugees so important to the bottom dollar to the EU?

 

- It's about putting the cows in the stables and claim that they are now horses and feel good about it, that's what the political leaders and the champagne socialists think.

- It's also about industry leaders thinking that cows staying in the stable can be learned to work as well, if not better, than their previous horses.

 

It's fascinating to witness how people unintensionally destroying their societies are willing to put up with as long as their conscience is clear.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

I'd say the refugees and importance of the European Union as both a political and economic union of common interest as well as its role in peacekeeping is pretty real. As is the EUs state of instability that is not exactly helped by with Brexit

I am getting lost, what is your point? Why do you want to govern other people who don't wish it? You agree with Merkel that you want refugees illegal immigrants as benefit to your country - yet you try to stuff them into other countries which don't wish them. Whole Germany is walking contradiction in EU

My point is, the refugees need help, and we, as in the entire EU, are in a position that allows us to help. So in my opinion, it is the only right think to do (especially for countries like Germany, France, te Scandinavians, and until recently Britain). Besides, I already pointed out how the EU will gain from the refugees within a few decades. Two or three maybe.

 

Further, I believe that a lack of education regarding the EU and its function as well as its actions leads to people to blame many problems on the EU that are often not directly or even not at all related with the EU. People do not realise anymore how much stability and growth the EU provides, they take it as given. This created a dangerous situation where right winged parties gain more and more support, and Brexit only enhances that further. Why in a situation with many immigrants a strong right wing is not ideal I don't think I need to point out.

 

 

1) There is a UN law that refugees should stay in first secure country

2) there is EU law that countries should protect outside borders of Shengen

3) Its right thing for refugees to get accepted into EU countries, not right for people in these countries

4) I must missed that your point where EU gains from refugees, can you point me to it please? All I see is 3 millions of Turks in Germany praising islamisation of Turkey and Erdogan's purges, burning cars on Paris outskirts, immigrants in Calai jumping into trucks

5) your view on anyone who don't share your view on EU as uneducated as indoctrination

6) all that growth and stability which brings EU is from its core as union of free trade and movement of people - I don't argue that point

7) raise of Right Wing is EUs own doing, as they don't act as their own population wants them to

[Hiro Protagonist]

I'm all for regulated borders. Come at me.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT12WH4a92w

 

Also, a recent look into Australia's Border Force. (I'm not a fan of the TV show). The link showing what Border Force do is interesting though.

 

https://www.9now.com.au/a-current-affair/2016/clip-citm4gun5005h0imy65bgx7vs

 

edit: You'll need a VPN with an Australian IP to view the link.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Hiro Protagonist

[Meshugger]

Ben No.3: Are the figures on page 5 in the following PDF true?

 

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/zlw/bilder/stuttgart_6_2016_El-Mafaalani.pdf

[redneckdevil]

 

 

I do have a question about the refugees in the EU, is it to "help" them or is it because they are in a bad position so the EU basically gets "cheaper" labor while looking like it's actually doing "good"?

I mean the EU doesn't get to use this good deed as a tax write off since they are the bosses of themselves. And the EU is basically about economics, so using the "good" deed of helping them out from a business standpoint....sorry here in America, during our biggest immigration acceptance in the past, immigrants were viewed as extra votes and cheap labor.

Question is, from a business stand point, what is the bottom dollar to helping these refugees? Don't think like a citizen who is viewing this morally, think as a business stand point and think "WHY" they are pushing these refugees.

 

 

Just saying helping the refugees because they need help is falling on deaf ears because a lot of us have been hearing the same line from our countries and know it's a pile of **** reason and not the reason why it's happening. Since this isn't America, I'm asking WHY are these refugees so important to the bottom dollar to the EU?

- It's about putting the cows in the stables and claim that they are now horses and feel good about it, that's what the political leaders and the champagne socialists think.

- It's also about industry leaders thinking that cows staying in the stable can be learned to work as well, if not better, than their previous horses.

 

It's fascinating to witness how people unintensionally destroying their societies are willing to put up with as long as their conscience is clear.

To add with something we are dealing with here

-calling the cows horses so that the prices of horses will go down but still charging the same price if not more for the services of said "horses".

 

To clarify for the PC people, pay less for employees but still charging same price for services they provide. That's the main problem most people have when u bring in more people, less pay to be shared but the companies are not gonna lower prices of their goods even though they are paying their employees less. Hell thats why our economy hasn't really gotten much better the last 10 years bc companies found out that they can short staff and pay less for same services that were being fulfilled by more people and being paid more. Because less money and more work is better than having no money and no work.

[Ben No.3]

Ben No.3: Are the figures on page 5 in the following PDF true?

 

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/zlw/bilder/stuttgart_6_2016_El-Mafaalani.pdf

Sounds about right, yes

What point are you trying to make?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

I'd say the refugees and importance of the European Union as both a political and economic union of common interest as well as its role in peacekeeping is pretty real. As is the EUs state of instability that is not exactly helped by with Brexit

I am getting lost, what is your point? Why do you want to govern other people who don't wish it? You agree with Merkel that you want refugees illegal immigrants as benefit to your country - yet you try to stuff them into other countries which don't wish them. Whole Germany is walking contradiction in EU

My point is, the refugees need help, and we, as in the entire EU, are in a position that allows us to help. So in my opinion, it is the only right think to do (especially for countries like Germany, France, te Scandinavians, and until recently Britain). Besides, I already pointed out how the EU will gain from the refugees within a few decades. Two or three maybe.

 

Further, I believe that a lack of education regarding the EU and its function as well as its actions leads to people to blame many problems on the EU that are often not directly or even not at all related with the EU. People do not realise anymore how much stability and growth the EU provides, they take it as given. This created a dangerous situation where right winged parties gain more and more support, and Brexit only enhances that further. Why in a situation with many immigrants a strong right wing is not ideal I don't think I need to point out.

4) I must missed that your point where EU gains from refugees, can you point me to it please? All I see is 3 millions of Turks in Germany praising islamisation of Turkey and Erdogan's purges, burning cars on Paris outskirts, immigrants in Calai jumping into trucks

5) your view on anyone who don't share your view on EU as uneducated as indoctrination

This is not only extremely offensive, it is also simply wrong. The refugees are mostly from Syria, not turkey.

Most German Turks don't give a sh!t about Islam. We have two members of the CDU in parliament that are German Turks. CDU stands for Christliche Demokratische Union, which means Christian democratic union. While they are not really a Christian party (anymore), these members are officially Muslim, which just shows how unimportant religion is by now.

And I can think of not a single German Turk whom I know personally or who is a public figure who supports erdogans policies. Sadly, turkey is an important ally due to its geographical location.

And I assume by burning cars in Paris you refer to the terrorist attacks. You do realise that te terrorists were born in Belgium? They were EU citizens since birth, not refugees

 

Also, if you want to show me your level of education, I'd recommend you use correct grammar and perhaps fact check your claims that all German Turks are supporters of erdogan, looking to spread Islam and burning cars every other day in Paris

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

4) I must missed that your point where EU gains from refugees, can you point me to it please? All I see is 3 millions of Turks in Germany praising islamisation of Turkey and Erdogan's purges, burning cars on Paris outskirts, immigrants in Calai jumping into trucks

5) your view on anyone who don't share your view on EU as uneducated as indoctrination

This is not only extremely offensive, it is also simply wrong. The refugees are mostly from Syria, not turkey.

Most German Turks don't give a sh!t about Islam. We have two members of the CDU in parliament that are German Turks. CDU stands for Christliche Demokratische Union, which means Christian democratic union. While they are not really a Christian party (anymore), these members are officially Muslim, which just shows how unimportant religion is by now.

And I can think of not a single German Turk whom I know personally or who is a public figure who supports erdogans policies. Sadly, turkey is an important ally due to its geographical location.

And I assume by burning cars in Paris you refer to the terrorist attacks. You do realise that te terrorists were born in Belgium? They were EU citizens since birth, not refugees

 

Also, if you want to show me your level of education, I'd recommend you use correct grammar and perhaps fact check your claims that all German Turks are supporters of erdogan, looking to spread Islam and burning cars every other day in Paris

 

1) I was not the one attacking opposition as uneducated, it was you

2) 5 seconds of google - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36937891

3) as for burning cars - you were the one stating that second or third generation of immigrants will be integrated, I was not talking about terrorists, I was talking about these generations in Paris - 10 seconds of googling and skipping half of pages some could consider not reliable - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30653784

 

man you are really lost, hard to believe you are not Bruce

 

edit: quoting seems to be broken

Edited October 10, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Ben No.3]

 

4) I must missed that your point where EU gains from refugees, can you point me to it please? All I see is 3 millions of Turks in Germany praising islamisation of Turkey and Erdogan's purges, burning cars on Paris outskirts, immigrants in Calai jumping into trucks

5) your view on anyone who don't share your view on EU as uneducated as indoctrination

This is not only extremely offensive, it is also simply wrong. The refugees are mostly from Syria, not turkey.

Most German Turks don't give a sh!t about Islam. We have two members of the CDU in parliament that are German Turks. CDU stands for Christliche Demokratische Union, which means Christian democratic union. While they are not really a Christian party (anymore), these members are officially Muslim, which just shows how unimportant religion is by now.

And I can think of not a single German Turk whom I know personally or who is a public figure who supports erdogans policies. Sadly, turkey is an important ally due to its geographical location.

And I assume by burning cars in Paris you refer to the terrorist attacks. You do realise that te terrorists were born in Belgium? They were EU citizens since birth, not refugees

 

Also, if you want to show me your level of education, I'd recommend you use correct grammar and perhaps fact check your claims that all German Turks are supporters of erdogan, looking to spread Islam and burning cars every other day in Paris

 

 

1) I was not the one attacking opposition as uneducated, it was you

2) 5 seconds of google - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36937891

3) as for burning cars - you were the one stating that second or third generation of immigrants will be integrated, I was not talking about terrorist, I was talking about these generations in paris - 10 seconds of googling and skipping half of pages some could consider not reliable - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30653784

 

man you are really lost, hardly to believe you are not Bruce

 

3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply? Also please read more than the headline, a demonstrator states that the demonstrators are not pro Erdogan but against the coup that the military has attempted in summer.

About being uneducated... I was giving a brief explanation about how populism works, not attacking you. And even if I tried, the level of education is mostly determined by government, the single person carries no blame.

About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

Then again, I'm not educated either... How do I fix the quote?

[Chilloutman]

3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply?

About being uneducated... I was giving a brief explanation about how populism works, not attacking you. And even if I tried, the level of education is mostly determined by government, the single person carries no blame.

About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

are you actually giving me ammunition by this? Or this proves that this whole discussion is troll attempt?

[Ben No.3]

 

3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply?

About being uneducated... I was giving a brief explanation about how populism works, not attacking you. And even if I tried, the level of education is mostly determined by government, the single person carries no blame.

About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

are you actually giving me ammunition by this? Or this proves that this whole discussion is troll attempt?

In Germany, we don't shoot people anymore, we find that sort of against human rights. But if you want to, go ahead. But aim carefully.

Obviously I'm joking around a bit... Don't know how to stay optimistic otherwise. But my points are valid.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

But the articles don't prove your point... Demonstrators stating they are not for erdogan but against the coup, and a decrease in burning cars. How are these helping you?

[Chilloutman]

 

3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply?

About being uneducated... I was giving a brief explanation about how populism works, not attacking you. And even if I tried, the level of education is mostly determined by government, the single person carries no blame.

About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

are you actually giving me ammunition by this? Or this proves that this whole discussion is troll attempt?

 

ok lets continue this for a short while for amusement.

 

1) 3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply?

 

Yes of course it does, Only percentage of Germans were Nazis yet whole country was swallowed by it so I don't see your reasoning on this at all

 

2) About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

 

ah oh yeah so 15 years of car burning aside, now these kids of immigrants are ok because they burn less cars that year, gotcha!

[Ben No.3]

 

 

3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply?

About being uneducated... I was giving a brief explanation about how populism works, not attacking you. And even if I tried, the level of education is mostly determined by government, the single person carries no blame.

About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

are you actually giving me ammunition by this? Or this proves that this whole discussion is troll attempt?

ok lets continue this for a short while for amusement.

 

1) 3 million German Turks, and a few thousand demonstrators represent them all? If that were true, the few thousand neo Nazis would represent all Germans, so does that apply?

 

Yes of course it does, Only percentage of Germans were Nazis yet whole country was swallowed by it so I don't see your reasoning on this at all

 

2) About Paris... I assume you are aware of the fact that the article you linked shows that there were less cars set on fire?

 

ah oh yeah so 15 years of car burning aside, now these kids of immigrants are ok because they burn less cars that year, gotcha!

1) Neo nazis, not nazis. Neo nazi is a term that refers to today's nazis. So do they represent all Germans?

 

2) your accusation was that the immigrants were setting cars on fire, and you tried to prove this by linking me to an article that shows that less cars are being lit up. Two problems: 1. There is no indication of who actually sets the cars on fire... But just a reminder, immigrants are a minority. So, statistically speaking, the change that te cars were lit by immigrants is smaller than the chance that they were lit by French. And 2. There has been less incidents, however, if you are correct, then there should be more, since with the refugees, there are fare more immigrants. But that isn't the case. For what reason are immigrants to be accused in the first place? You realise everyone is innocent until proven guilty?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

If you can not give me a reason why the immigration are definitely guilty, please give me at least a reason not to call you a right winger... Which, in this case, is a very diplomatic expression

[Meshugger]

 

Ben No.3: Are the figures on page 5 in the following PDF true?

 

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/zlw/bilder/stuttgart_6_2016_El-Mafaalani.pdf

Sounds about right, yes

What point are you trying to make?

 

 

Just to make sure that my German is correct, is this what the figures say?

 

Frankfurt

- Total number of people with foreign background: 43%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

Stuttgart

- Total number of people with foreign background: 38%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Nürnberg

- Total number of people with foreign background: 37%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

München

- Total number of people with foreign background: 36%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Düsseldorf

- Total number of people with foreign background: 32%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Köln

- Total number of people with foreign background: 31%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Hannover

- Total number of people with foreign background: 30%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Dortmund/Duisburg/Gelsenkirchen/Berlin/Hamburg/Bremen/Essen

- Total number of people with foreign background: 20-29%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: Under 50%

Edited October 10, 2016 by Meshugger

[Chilloutman]

1) Neo nazis, not nazis. Neo nazi is a term that refers to today's nazis. So do they represent all Germans?

 

2) your accusation was that the immigrants were setting cars on fire, and you tried to prove this by linking me to an article that shows that less cars are being lit up. Two problems: 1. There is no indication of who actually sets the cars on fire... But just a reminder, immigrants are a minority. So, statistically speaking, the change that te cars were lit by immigrants is smaller than the chance that they were lit by French. And 2. There has been less incidents, however, if you are correct, then there should be more, since with the refugees, there are fare more immigrants. But that isn't the case. For what reason are immigrants to be accused in the first place? You realise everyone is innocent until proven guilty?

1) still could be, that's why they are banned

 

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riots#Summary_statistics

 

The BBC reported that French society's negative perceptions of Islam and social discrimination of immigrants had alienated some French Muslims and may have been a factor in the causes of the riots: "Islam is seen as the biggest challenge to the country's secular model in the past 100 years".[23] It was reported that there was discontent and a sense of alienation felt by many French Muslims and North African immigrants in the suburbs of French cities.[24] However, the editorial also questioned whether or not such alarm is justified, citing that France's Muslim ghettos are not hotbeds of separatism and that "the suburbs are full of people desperate to integrate into the wider society."

 

mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

Ben No.3: Are the figures on page 5 in the following PDF true?

 

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/zlw/bilder/stuttgart_6_2016_El-Mafaalani.pdf

Sounds about right, yes

What point are you trying to make?

Just to make sure that my German is correct, is this what the figures say?

 

Frankfurt

- Total number of people with foreign background: 43%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

Stuttgart

- Total number of people with foreign background: 38%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Nürnberg

- Total number of people with foreign background: 37%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 70%

 

München

- Total number of people with foreign background: 36%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Düsseldorf

- Total number of people with foreign background: 32%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 60%

 

Köln

- Total number of people with foreign background: 31%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Hannover

- Total number of people with foreign background: 30%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: 55%

 

Dortmund/Duisburg/Gelsenkirchen/Berlin/Hamburg/Bremen/Essen

- Total number of people with foreign background: 20-29%

- Number of children under the age of 6 with foreign background: Under 50%

I am no sociologist, and I can only speak for Frankfurt, Stuttgart, München, Düsseldorf and Berlin, but I'd say it feels bout right... To be honest I would have thought the number would be higher in Berlin

[Ben No.3]

 

1) Neo nazis, not nazis. Neo nazi is a term that refers to today's nazis. So do they represent all Germans?

 

2) your accusation was that the immigrants were setting cars on fire, and you tried to prove this by linking me to an article that shows that less cars are being lit up. Two problems: 1. There is no indication of who actually sets the cars on fire... But just a reminder, immigrants are a minority. So, statistically speaking, the change that te cars were lit by immigrants is smaller than the chance that they were lit by French. And 2. There has been less incidents, however, if you are correct, then there should be more, since with the refugees, there are fare more immigrants. But that isn't the case. For what reason are immigrants to be accused in the first place? You realise everyone is innocent until proven guilty?

1) still could be, that's why they are banned

 

2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riots#Summary_statistics

 

The BBC reported that French society's negative perceptions of Islam and social discrimination of immigrants had alienated some French Muslims and may have been a factor in the causes of the riots: "Islam is seen as the biggest challenge to the country's secular model in the past 100 years".[23] It was reported that there was discontent and a sense of alienation felt by many French Muslims and North African immigrants in the suburbs of French cities.[24] However, the editorial also questioned whether or not such alarm is justified, citing that France's Muslim ghettos are not hotbeds of separatism and that "the suburbs are full of people desperate to integrate into the wider society."

 

mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement

I see... Two generations ago, your grandfather lit up cars, so you will light up cars.

By your logic I am a nazi... By your words there is no doubt I am

 

If you are no troll, this is beyond insulting, it's simply embarrassing

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

I see... Two generations ago, your grandfather lit up cars, so you will light up cars.

By your logic I am a nazi... By your words there is no doubt I am

I don't follow, where I have stated something like that?

[Ben No.3]

"mind you its 10 years back, there is now no doubt that its caused by second/third generation of migrants, but I will let you do some stuff and debunk this statement"

-you, just a few minutes ago

[Ben No.3]

Look it up in your own post