Non-PotD Chanter.. need info on the exact role in party.

[Raven Darkholme]

Only thing is the invocation are just an extra gimmick of the chanter and not his main strength which is .... chanting.

[Reent]

Well the last thing you said is true... most enemies fall down long before I'm able to actually use an invocation, and that leaves me with a bunch of nothing to do... this is the only char that would force me to go higher difficulty just to have some fun...

For me it was every class... the tanks were too durable despite never equipping anything after accepting them, the DDs were done before i used the good stuff... the fight was over before the chanter knew it started... but its been a long long time (after changing to PotD i never changed back, only once to try a run with "animal as MC, 3 in everything ranger as companion") since i tried (i changed shortly before act 3, since i didnt wanna search for fights where i have to do anything)

[Slack83er]

Well, I come from other types of rpgs, so I need time to adapt to crpg, and therefore I lower difficulty and still find it challenging. But with the chanter this changes completely. He hastens the party, subtracts life from the enemies, and if by any chance I manage to spawn a ghost, it's total carnage...

[Boeroer]

Yeah, the phantoms are very strong in the early game. But until lvl 4 you need 12 seconds of chanting before you can call one.

[Raven Darkholme]

edit:deleted the video since it was not helpful to the OT.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Raven Darkholme

[Reent]

i never said chanters are weak!

I said chanters are boring as MC in lower difficulty if you actually do something with your other 5 characters.

[Raven Darkholme]

i never said chanters are weak!

I said chanters are boring as MC in lower difficulty if you actually do something with your other 5 chara

Oh you're right they are boring as in ability use.

But if you have Kana with high Lore you can gic´ve him plenty of scrolls to spam. :D

[Slack83er]

This thread is drifting away... it is not about HOW STRONG the class is. It's well known that chanters can solo, can party, can play every difficulty. No demonstration needed. 

The main and most recent argument is HOW BORING they can become... Changing the role of the companions just to make the MC more intresting is not my goal.

If I can't find a valid archetype, I'll simply pass and change MC... it's not your fault. You guys are extraordinary helpers, but just can't change the game  

[Remix]

I think part of the problem is that people want chanters to be something they aren't. They're more passive and don't need a lot of micro management. 

Personally, I really like how they play.
I don't have to focus too hard on my chanters and, instead, I can control classes that need a bit more attention (like barbarians, ciphers and monks). 

I'm using a party of 3 chanters, 1 dd-tank barbarian (hight might, hight int), 1 tank-heal-buff paladin (low dex, low per, maxed out rest of stats) and a crowd-control only (low-min might build) wizard. I'm Probably going to swap the wizard with a cipher, though, and go entirely without a vancian caster. 

The chanter's are all 3 different types,

1st one is a necromancer that uses summons (ogres, mushroom, skeletons). It also has the capacity to do some damage with corpse explosion and seven knights while using health buffs/regeneration chants (soft winds mixed in with 15%damage done regenerated chant and 100% healing chant). Also has +dex,+per,+int invocation to use on barbarian. 

The other is a tank that uses disables and buffs. Chants mostly Damage shield, deflection bonus, +damage to beast mixed with some 1st level buff-chants. Utilizes paralyze invocation debuff and +might,+con,+res invocation which buffs my barb and last chanter below big time. 

The last one is actually my main character, which is a damage dealing off-tank, utilizing dd (dragon thrashed, come soft winds building up to engaging a group of enemies and casting seven knights after my barb and chanter-tank disables them).

Synergizing the 3 chanters' chants with ancient memory, vets recovery and disables-buffs pretty much recreates the same effect of having a priest, a druid and a wizard casting at the same time. The only difference is that I never run out of spells (invocations or chants) and the chanters' chants are great spells alone (buffs, disables, foe damage) that are cast constantly with no penalty to the chanter whatsoever because they can still attack and cast while "casting" chants. The only flaw is when they are disabled in a way that stops them from chanting (casting) for the party. This would effect any traditional casters (per day casters) either way, however. 


The thing about chanters is this: one doesn't have to choose between chanting and invocations. Just pick one or two of the longer chants (level 3+ ones like dragon thrashed, damage shield, deflection bonus, healing multipliers) and weave in about 4 or 5 1st level chants and talents that synergize with them (soft winds with damage and health regen, +fortitude with deflection bonus, +reflex/speed with sure handed, -foe concentration with dragon thrashed and interrupting blows... the list goes on). 

Usually, if it's an encounter where chanters didn't cast an invocation... it wasn't an encounter one would waste a traditional casters per-rest spell for, anyway. The difference, though, is that even the 1st level invocations are useful for a reasonable part of the game and it's not too hard to get those off (corpse explosion especially). 

If you want something the chanter can do while they're chanting just take whispers of treason and aspirant's mark on them. Both are very useful at the beginning of a battle when you first start engaging enemies. 


This party I listed above is a beast, btw.
I use invocations quite frequently and pretty much had the wizard standing around with a hatchet and shield occasionally casting a cc spell if things really got out of hand. I didn't need the wizard at all, really. I swapped it out for a bunch of random other classes and characters and the core of the group handled everything else perfectly fine.

[Slack83er]

Remix, you just did the same thing I told to the other guy... explaining how strong the chanter can be. 

I don't want the chanter to be different, I'm exploring the possibility of playing it in a more active way. Clicking on the enemy is NOT activity. Using an Invocation every once in a while and moreover feeling that if I didn't use it I'd have won the battle just the same... it's....unrewarding. I don't doubt your party is a beast. I just wouldn't enjoy playing with it at all.

[Raven Darkholme]

Then why did you title the thread non PotD chanter?

[Slack83er]

I don't understand your question: This thread IS about the chanter played at non PotD. If I opened this thread it's because I needed advices from the community about such a character. That does not mean I have to like every advice. If at a certain point, after trying it, I found it to be boring... well... what can I do?

[Raven Darkholme]

My post was only about how the chanter is viable in easy difficulty and had nothing to do with how strong he is.

If you find that boring ok, it's cause it is boring, but it has nothing to do with PotD but your personbal expectations.

The most intersting char for me personally is the cipher.

[Reent]

My post was only about how the chanter is viable in easy difficulty and had nothing to do with how strong he is.

If you find that boring ok, it's cause it is boring, but it has nothing to do with PotD but your personbal expectations.

The most intersting char for me personally is the cipher.

There was a time i really liked cipher - it was the most interesting class for me - until my solo cipher got ringleader and used it to kill every hard encounter! But rejoice, from today on the "best case" is really the best case, no more "ups, fight restart" (at least after the patch and if it really works)

After he lost to thaos (because the chance to charm someone was too low and my deep pockets talent bugged) too many times i started my solo chanter ToI runs and never looked back.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Reent

[Slack83er]

My post was only about how the chanter is viable in easy difficulty and had nothing to do with how strong he is.

If you find that boring ok, it's cause it is boring, but it has nothing to do with PotD but your personbal expectations.

The most intersting char for me personally is the cipher.

You're right to talk about my expectations. And btw I didn't find your post boring at all. Just the character. On the contrary, I appreciate every bit of time you guys spend to write your personal points of view!

[Jojobobo]

Boring is a state of mind, if you're only going to find high micro-management classes interesting than a Chanter isn't likely for you. You can of course increase their micro-management as others have mentioned by making them your go-to lore guy (which I'd strongly recommend, Chanter's high Int synergises fantastically with a lot of scrolls), but you're never going to get a diametric shift from that archetype.

 

There's plenty of other classes with low micro, and plenty of others with high micro. If that's your chief concern play a few and get a feel, then commit. I find Chanters, despite not being incredibly high micro, very enjoyable as they do what they do well so I think there's a lot to appreciate there. On the flip side, I would never be put off a much higher micro class (e.g. a Wizard or Priest) or a much lower micro class (probably Paladins and Fighters) so maybe I'm not the best to be giving advice.

[Slack83er]

Well regardin Micro..I'd say I stand in the middle. But for me, Chanters are the lowest of all. No positioning, no activated abilities except invocations (which you are not forced to use, Chanter remains awesome even with just chants). Chanters go with autopilot and are extremely strong by themselves. They don't need to make any efforts. Their very presence changes the battles... And I don't enjoy microing other chars more than I do with my main. I let the AI do it... it works for me, it kinda makes me feel they have an own mind...

[Remix]

I was really just demonstrating how flexible they can be. None of those chanters I mentioned above are really standing around. I use them to kite foes into my barbarian while damaging and disabling/debuffing enemies at the same time. They are the first to engage my enemies unless I decide to split my party because they're getting flanked or they're already surrounded. 

If you want a chanter that is less focused on its passive aspects then try to lower intelligence. The chanter already has a huge base AOE and no matter how low you drop intelligence the chants always effect the chanter at the very least. 

You can do something like: 
 

16 might
18 con
8  dex
16 per
10 int
10 res

or 

16
18
10
14
10
10

or 

16
18
8
14
12
10

Start off with shot from a Blunderbuss, blast enemy with aspirants mark, cast whispers of treason, use frenzy, switch to Dual wield hatchets, (take superior deflection), wear heavier armor, use 4-5 soft winds and/or -10 concentration with a longer chant that you need, cast first useful invocation. 


Then take talents: two weapon fighting, interrupting blows, bloody slaughter, savage attack or frenzy (frenzy is overall more applicable), apprentices' sneak attack, superior deflection, whispers of treason and aspirants mark. 

Use items, resting, potions and scrolls to offset any stats you want. You will be fairly flexible. Want more int for AOE on chants and invocations? Rest and items and potions and you can increase int to 15-16 which pretty huge if you're going to spend a lot of time in melee wearing down enemies instead of standing on the second or third line.

And, again, you can cast the +dex,+per,+int invocation and your int could even reach 20 while your melee, damage and disabling prowess increases from the dex and per exponentially.

The build I showed you the picture of earlier was pretty close to something like this and all of those stat increases were from equipped items (armor, rings, belts, helmets, weapons) and no usable items (potions, scrolls, resting bonuses). 

For trash fights you will be able to use whispers and aspirants mark all you want until invocations can be cast or you just decide to cast frenzy right away and do more damage with weapons. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Remix

[Slack83er]

Well, I could put Dex to 8 if I'd go 2weapons... two hatchets give me a very good deflection, and I could stand in the middle of the fight. What I'm concerned of, is not the viability of the build itself, nor the various combinations I could obtain. What concerns me, is that I'm searching for an archetype, some base concept that can define this chanter. I was oriented on the Skald, but rifles, and other things are just out of context... I liked the idea of the chanter along with the cross class frenzy... but something is still amiss....

 

Frenzy --> Autochant --> Attack.  Rinse and repeat.  

There must be something better to do than just this. I don't mean to use many scrolls... i find consumable things annoying...

[Remix]

I could imagine a skald with a blunderbuss and hatchets. A former viking mercenary that has had encounters with pirates and bandits.

 

If you want things for your chanter to do while you're waiting for chants to build up give him some items that cast various spells (like rotfinger gloves).

 

I could definitely see having aspirants mark on a skald-type, too.

 

The bottom line is that if you want something to do other than attack with your weapons while chanting these are your options: equipment with spells, scrolls, cross class talents or figurines (the horn that summons could work).

 

Otherwise you're going to have to be a lot more specific about what you want and what is so boring because all of those options are pretty viable and work with regard to what you're asking for.

[rheingold]

Only thing is the invocation are just an extra gimmick of the chanter and not his main strength which is .... chanting.

Phew you are pretty harsh on invocations

To be honest I find them better than chants for a long time, at least until you get the damage reduction and dragon thrashed chants. Even then seven nights is great, the burst damage is insane. Add almost permanent paralyze and the phantom which I useful till 8th level...

[Slack83er]

It's difficult to say, I'm not searching some specific "miracle worker". It's just the concept that I'm chasing. A Skald has no rifle. He's got axes, maybe a bow... a harp (i know, this is not possible...) dresses in hides, has horned helmet. Chants, cries in battle, boosts himself with rage, and his comrades with passion. 

Now.. you play and see your chanter standing idle in the middle of the grass doing nothing... how very epic!

[Remix]

I tend kite and draw foes out with chanters. So they don't really stand around. Have him aggro some enemies so he gets a head start chanting. Use frenzy with seven knights. The different arms of the ice attack are deadly at short range. Use boots that give movement speed.

[Slack83er]

You only kite foes or you also attack them with weapons? Is there a specific way in which I can obtain combat abilities? So that I attack during chants and throw in some cool ability?

[Remix]

When I get to my computer I will mess around with the build I showed you earlier and tweak it.

 

Do you have any issue with letting your skald alternate between melee and a longbow?

 

What chants and invocations would work well for the character's personality in your opinion? I would reccomend definitely including seven knights (freeze damage is skald-y).