Should Quest mode card rewards be tiered

[Pediatron]

I've been playing more Quest mode lately and have noticed that the card rewards are really disappointing. You would think after you finally manage to raise your characters a full level and get a reward, it would be at least worth having. I was thinking that since the players unlock tiers at various levels, shouldn't the card rewards they earn (weapons, items, blessings, spells, etc) be at their current tier? That way my level 26 characters won't be getting yet another blessing of the gods or perhaps a dagger as their next card reward. I honestly don't remember a single card reward I have gotten that I haven't immediately turned around and removed from the character on the next screen!

 

 

[Hannibal_PJV]

Well this feature is directly From the tabletop version of the game. And even in that it very randomly is usefull.

I don't count on level upgrades when I build my deck. Would it make reward drops better, if They would be level depending. Maybe. But the idea of the game is that even among the same level there Are useless and good boons. So if the quest mode does change the random stuff it will have very Little change to actual game play. In good and in bad.

I would not be too worried about this "feature" it will and has always been irritating (both in digital and Also in tabletop version. Actually it is more irritating in the tabletop version, because you normally have much worse deck than in this digital version.)

[Pediatron]

I didn't think there was a tabletop version of the Quest mode. It is just the very long grind to level up in this mode (compared with the one quest, one reward situation in story mode) that makes the rewards so disappointing. I do have to say, though, with quest rewards being somewhat broken right now, I really don't care if I miss out on any of the card rewards so I can ignore the bug until I hit the next feat reward level. Might feel differently if I knew I would be getting tier 2 rewards for my tier 2 characters.

[Bajie]

I agree with the card rewards as dissappointing early on but have come to accept as it is to the point that when I was levelling up I only ever care about reaching the level where you get additional abilities/stats.

 

Being it as it is, I think the gold reward in questmode at least make up for it.

 

I remember playing and tricking myself i just got to level through this crappy reward and pool the gold so I can buy a treasure where I'm guaranteed a rare card or something and telling myself this is the real card reward ^^

[Ripe]

Well in tabletop game you get an option to permanently remove boons with Basic trait from game on banishment once you add AD3 (you get that choice for boons with Elite trait when you add AD5) which somewhat increase a chance of getting a "decent" random card reward (and it certainly improve the odds of finding good cards during scenarios!) but that option was not implemented here. Or at least it's not implemented in such absolute way as it is in tabletop game.

[wakasm]

In My Opinion: 

 

 

I am fine with "junk cards" if there was a faster way to discard them and go through the animations for each one.  It's just too slow.  So in addition to 90% of the time me not getting something I need/want, having to go through the animations/discarding/etc is a chore.   If they addressed that, then I actually would prefer this system: 

• XP Level Rewards should be Card Feats, Power Feats, Skill Feats, and maybe Loot Cards (only) - Basically unique things not found in locations
• XP grind would be slower, with less levels, more xp between levels, but every level's reward would feel good
• Card rewards should be tied to each quest attempt, randomly generated alongside the scenario itself.  The cards that drop should generally have a probability of being one adventure path level above where you are.  There should be some % chance of getting nothing due to how many scenarios you play per level. 

From there, I wouldn't mind if they then gave a small % to get something higher than your current party rating (If party is tier 1, then 90% chance of tier B, C, 1, and 10% chance of tier 2)

 

This way, you are always getting a reward for playing a quest and never have moments where you get nothing at all, and it would help with the RNG of cards, the large pool, and the fact there is no "Box" to remove cards from.   Getting a chance at something higher helps with the fact that 99.9% of these cards you get you've already encountered in scenarios.  

 

With this system, you would get less "levels", with most likely more grinding of XP between levels, but at least you would never play a full quest and only get gold/xp and no card rewards, plus, the only exciting part of story mode" is the loot cards and feats anyway.  After a while, you mostly have the cards you want/need without many upgrades in between.

 

Not a priority by any means... but i think ti would make Quest mode feel better, where levels actually matter.  

Edited August 20, 2016 by wakasm

[Hannibal_PJV]

Well in tabletop game you get an option to permanently remove boons with Basic trait from game on banishment once you add AD3 (you get that choice for boons with Elite trait when you add AD5) which somewhat increase a chance of getting a "decent" random card reward (and it certainly improve the odds of finding good cards during scenarios!) but that option was not implemented here. Or at least it's not implemented in such absolute way as it is in tabletop game.

I am guite sure that Paizo has given Obsidian information of how Many persent of basic and elite is removed From the game normally. (That is what I would do in anyway) so the amounth of removed card is more or less in same level as in the tabletop version. So it Also help chances Also in digital version. But there always Are those cards that don't belong to basic or elite that will hang around (like in physical version too).

[Pediatron]

I'm not sure you understand my post -- I am recommending a tier 2 item/ally/weapon etc from one's current vault be the level reward in Quest mode for a player that has reached tier 2 (level 20 and above) - a level 3 card for level 30 and above. Otherwise all of the card rewards tend to be junk compared with what the player has already acquired. 

[Hannibal_PJV]

Yes i understand but tradition in this game is than random reward has always been junk

They Are junk in Runelords, They Are junk in shacles, They Are junk in wrath and I supose that They will be junk in Mummy. So I consider junk random cards as a tradition in pathfinder adventures. In the digital version They just carry on that tradition. So for me personally it is not a problem at all. I always Expect to see junk random card as level rewards and am surprices if it is not.

But it is not a bad hope at all that it would be tier bound, I just don't Expect it based on the long historia of tabletop version of the game.

Edited August 21, 2016 by Hannibal_PJV

[wakasm]

Yes i understand but stradition in this game is than random reward has always been junk

They Are junk in Runelords, They Are junk in shacles, They Are junk in wrath and I supose that They will be junk in Mummy. So I consider junk random cards as a tradition in pathfinder adventures. In the digital version They just carry on that tradition. So for me personally it is not a problem at all. I always Expect to see junk random card as level rewards and am surprices if it is not.

But it is not a bad hope at all that it would be tier bound, I just don't Expect it based on the long historia of tabletop version of the game.

 

Actually, this isn't true.  

 

If you play the game naturally, IE, progress from scenario to scenario, without farming things or replaying things like you do in the app (typically how the board game experience goes - win then move on), then these rewards actually become a lot more meaningful.  

• You don't encounter as many cards as you do in quest mode or from replaying the same scenarios
• The way box culling works, you generally dilute the pool of cards to higher probability of getting something your party actually wants
• By Adventure 5, if you've been aggressively been culling basic/elite cards... you have a much higher probability seeing things from Adventure 3-5

This is why people who complain about the box mechanic in the app have some weight to their reasoning for wanting this in the game.

 

I'd rather play the story mode and optimize my time, get the best party I can, in as few encounters as possible, vs endlessly replaying the same stuff over and over waiting for a random number generator to give me what I need.   This is, in my opinion, the BEST aspect of the physical board game - because it forces you to do the best you can with what you have, which is where any challenge in Pathfinder comes from.  (Obviously, things the app introduces, like Legendary Mode or challneges are an exception, those are cool, but not relevant to the discussion)

 

But the app is different because with challenges/legendary/gold/quest/farming/treasure chests - it encourages you to replay stuff over and over, which means you see a LOT more cards just through playing the game, somethign the physical game does not do, and thus, the "rewards" are way more meaningless because you've already encountered many many many more cards through luck of the draw, you have seen these cards already.  

 

This isn't to say that sometimes you get junk in the real game... that does happen,  but because you encounter many less cards through locations, these rewards actually have more meaning and often provide real upgrades, because you don't get all these encounters.  

 

Unless of course your group is losing a lot.  

 

Because of this.... if Quest Mode is going to give rewards, they should give future tier awards earlier than you can find them in the game. or at least, let you encounter them at the same time you start seeing them in the game.  Right now, they are too delayed, and almost always are useless for the same reasons as above. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by wakasm

[Hannibal_PJV]

Yes They Are more meaningfull in the tabletop version, because you play it less, but one of the biggest complains in the Paizo (original tabletop maker of this game) forums Are random card rewards, bacause They mostly Are meaningless... So thats why that brutal generalization.

The quest mode is so long that you get more cards during it in anyway, so it is a completely different beast in itself.

[wakasm]

The quest mode is so long that you get more cards during it in anyway, so it is a completely different beast in itself.

That is exactly the point of this thread. The problem, that according to you was a problem for some in the board game is even a bigger problem in quest mode, hence the original posters thread. lol.

 

Which is why saying "it's fine" and "it's tradition" really isn't super constructive to begin with, and to say the rewards are meaningless in story, especially physical, is mathematically untrue when you factor in culling.

 

It only takes one upgrade in this game for it to be meaningful, especially since 90% of the card pool in general is meaningless to an individual character. Which again is why some people prefer the box culling portion of the physical game as a min-max tactic.

Edited August 21, 2016 by wakasm

[wakasm]

I just saw this and wanted to post a response to this as well.

 

I am guite sure that Paizo has given Obsidian information of how Many persent of basic and elite is removed From the game normally. (That is what I would do in anyway) so the amounth of removed card is more or less in same level as in the tabletop version. So it Also help chances Also in digital version. But there always Are those cards that don't belong to basic or elite that will hang around (like in physical version too).

Paizo does not know this, because this number is greatly variable and gameable. I've played games where we could win a scenario with 15 blessings left, but instead spent turns purposely encountering 10-15 extra explores just to remove basic/elites. In skulls and shackles there is a character (the Oracle) who can often do this in a single turn!

 

It's part of a press your luck component that is removed from the app, replaced with endless and safer, and sometimes mindless, farming.

[Pediatron]

Sure starting to feel like we are going off topic. Would love some more comments on the ORIGINAL post if possible -- as in should Quest card rewards be based on the character's level or tier. Thanks all!

[Ripe]

Problem with tiered reward is that instead of potentially getting a crap reward you'd be almost certain to get it in some cases.

 

I mean, consider base AD2 items (treasure cards change that somewhat but you're not guaranteed to have them): Chime of Unlocking, Cloak of Elvenkind and Ring of Protection. Ring is only thing even remotely useful (and there are better damage reducers by that point) so odds of keeping one of them in your deck after rebuild is very, very small. Getting one of those three items is hardly a reward and you'd probably not keep any of them in your deck considering there are more useful B, C or 1 items. AD3 items are not that much better but are at least useful to some characters...