Calculating Expected Damage for a Firebrand Hit

[bigwillystyle]

I am trying to get a sense if Firebrand is hitting as hard as I think it should.

 

Per the game, Firebrand has a damage range of 20-30 and includes the Damaging 3 enchantment, hence the 29-44 that is seen in the description of the weapon.

 

I think a hit, as opposed to a graze or crit, should deliver on average about 66 pts of damage with the talents I have selected for my barbarian.  

 

Are my calcs off?  Anything I'm missing / mis-calculating?

 

Might 25: 45%  

Damaging 3: 45%  

Scion of Flame: 20%  

OSA: 20%  

Savage Attack: 20%  

Two Handed Style: 15%    

165%        

Avg. Damage 25 (20 - 30)  

+165% 66.25  

Edited August 15, 2016 by bigwillystyle

[Boeroer]

For me that seems to be correct. A hit should deal between 53 and 79,5 burn damage. Why do you ask? Did you get different results?

[bigwillystyle]

For me that seems to be correct. A hit should deal between 53 and 79,5 burn damage. Why do you ask? Did you get different results?

 

My hits are pretty consistently in the low 50s.  I think that's partly an artifact of Carnage - I wasn't taking into account that the vast majority of my hits are via Carnage with a -34% modifier that should yield average damage of ~58.  My regular hits are in the low 60s which is close but still ... seems a little light.  If I look at the tooltip when Firebrand is active, all the modifiers show except for Scion of Flame.  I was partly wondering if Scion of Flame doesn't work.  I'll log some #s tonight.  

 

My experience (not formally logged and tracked!) seems to match with Scion of Flame not applying a 20% bonus to Firebrand.

[bigwillystyle]

And don't get me wrong, Firebrand still hits like a Mack Truck, no complaints.  But if Scion of Flame doesn't work, I have better use of a talent point!  

[Boeroer]

Hm, if it doesn't apply why do those talents work for Bittercut and Stormcaller? Is it because it's a summined weapon? Then Kalakoth's Minor Blights and Cadebald's Blackbow also wouldn't work. Or was the damage type changed from burn to slash/burn or something?

Maybe Loren Tyr could shed some light on it with a look into the code.

The bonus from the elemental talents never showed on the character sheet (where weapon damage is listed) by the way.

[Loren Tyr]

Yeah, it doesn't show. Does apply though. I just did a quick test, attacking with Firebrand (+45%) with 2H Style (+15%), 15 Might (+15%) and WS Soldier (+15%) for a base total bonus of +90%. This would yield a range of 38 - 57 on hit (28 - 42 on graze, 58 - 87 on crit). Adding in Scion shifts this to 42 - 63 (32 - 48 on graze, 62 - 93 on crit). 

 

In a series of 10 hits 3 grazes I subsequently got hits of 57.8 and 60.8 and grazes of 47.5 and 46; this would only be possible if Scion did apply (conversely there were no damage values outside the Scion ranges). Removing Scion and continuing for a couple more attacks, I also got hits of 38 and 40.6 and a graze of 29 (and no damage values outside the "no Scion" ranges). 

 

And indeed, the BonusDamagePerType values are also referenced (through a chain of other functions) in the function that handles attack hits, so this will apply generally to all magic weapons and such. As an aside, it is also referenced in the function that applies damage directly to characters, which is used for stuff like Lashes that don't roll to hit. Which, come to think of it, also explains why DOTs don't get the bonus, those run through yet another function.

 

As an aside to the aside, by the way: although the elemental talents work with Stormcaller and Bittercut, they won't work with for example with Durance's Staff and Minoletta's Minor Missiles. The damage amount is calculated for the primary damage type, for the "double damage type" attacks the choice to use the secondary damage type instead is made later. Staff and Missiles have Crush as primary, so would only be boosted by a Crushing boost. Though conversely, Stormcaller and Bittercut get their +20% even if they don't end up doing Shock/Corrode damage. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Boeroer]

Great, thanks a lot. So my "All fire paladin" with Firebrand is still viable.

 

The last part I knew. Kaylon did a few tests some time ago and also discovered this "glitch". It's a pity though. Durance's Staff would be so much more appealing if it did burn/crush instead of crush/burn.

[bigwillystyle]

Yeah, it doesn't show. Does apply though. I just did a quick test, attacking with Firebrand (+45%) with 2H Style (+15%), 15 Might (+15%) and WS Soldier (+15%) for a base total bonus of +90%. This would yield a range of 38 - 57 on hit (28 - 42 on graze, 58 - 87 on crit). Adding in Scion shifts this to 42 - 63 (32 - 48 on graze, 62 - 93 on crit). 

 

In a series of 10 hits 3 grazes I subsequently got hits of 57.8 and 60.8 and grazes of 47.5 and 46; this would only be possible if Scion did apply (conversely there were no damage values outside the Scion ranges). Removing Scion and continuing for a couple more attacks, I also got hits of 38 and 40.6 and a graze of 29 (and no damage values outside the "no Scion" ranges). 

 

And indeed, the BonusDamagePerType values are also referenced (through a chain of other functions) in the function that handles attack hits, so this will apply generally to all magic weapons and such. As an aside, it is also referenced in the function that applies damage directly to characters, which is used for stuff like Lashes that don't roll to hit. Which, come to think of it, also explains why DOTs don't get the bonus, those run through yet another function.

 

As an aside to the aside, by the way: although the elemental talents work with Stormcaller and Bittercut, they won't work with for example with Durance's Staff and Minoletta's Minor Missiles. The damage amount is calculated for the primary damage type, for the "double damage type" attacks the choice to use the secondary damage type instead is made later. Staff and Missiles have Crush as primary, so would only be boosted by a Crushing boost. Though conversely, Stormcaller and Bittercut get their +20% even if they don't end up doing Shock/Corrode damage. 

 

thank you for the comprehensive testing!  

[Dr <3]

Hey wait a second, the critical dmg multiplier applied to the base dmg of the weapon or at the base dmg multiplied for the other bonuses?

 

I always thought is was like an additional +50% dmg alongside the others,

So 20-30 * 1(base dmg)+90%+50% = 20-30 * 240% = 38-72 dmg

 

Instead in reality it is : 20-30 * 1+90% = 38-57

And that get multiplied for 1+50%???

So 38-57* 1,5= 57-85,5?

 

Wow, i never noted that after all this time, shame on me

 

Edit 2 : this explained why droemel talent feels so powerful

Edited August 16, 2016 by Dr <3

[Loren Tyr]

No, critical +X% damage is additive with all other +X% damage. So for Firebrand that's +90% (or +110%, with Scion), +100%. Firebrand has Annihilation, it gets a bigger crit. Hence, 20 - 30 * 2.9 = 58 - 87. And stuff like the Doemenel talent or the helmet just adds another +X% on top of that.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Loren Tyr

[Dr <3]

Oopsie, forgot about annilation

[bigwillystyle]

I'm off to slay the Eyeless and let me just say Firebrand ... not too useful against Eyeless!

[Boeroer]

What do you think: what are St. Ydwen's Redeemer and Abydon's Hammer for?

 

After you have Durgan Steel pretty much every non soulbound weapon can compete with or even surpass Firebrand - you just have to enchant it properly.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Boeroer

[bigwillystyle]

It seems like a big leap from a damage range of 16-20 to 20-30

 

Is the idea that a differential +8 accuracy, weapon lash & higher proportion of crits can make up that much of a difference?  

Edited August 18, 2016 by bigwillystyle

[Boeroer]

You forgot slaying and speed. And maybe Eyeless are especially resistant to fire - can't remember.

 

I still think Firebrand is nice. It's worth to build a whole char around it. But in some encounters there are better choices - because it only has one damage type for examples or there are other weapons that are esp. effective against a certain type of enemy. Vessels are a good example for that.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Boeroer