[3.02] DoT damage calculation issues

[Ronin@]

It's not just a combat log bug. As you can see it does 17 damage with the first damage tick. 4x17 =68. I'm supposed to do 74.4. DR seems to apply inconsistently every time I use a DoT but let's assume it's applied to the total damage. This guys's Corrode DR was 4.5 so the damage applied is still off, even by a little bit.

 

 

Edit:  Did some tests and DoT ticks seem to take into account the momentary stats of the caster, not the ones when he initially cast the spell. Not sure if this is intended or not but I figured I should mention it. I'm not sure but I think duration changes too. 

 

Edit2: Crit DoT damage isn't 150%. Watched it do 5 ticks x 14 damage + 1 tick x 7 damage = 77 damage vs corrode DR 16 which means I did 93 total damage. My normal Dot Damage was still 74.4 so the Crit actually amplified my DoT damage by exactly 25%.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Ronin@

[Reent]

DR against DoTs:

 

DR is applied everytime you deal damage, so against the first, the 2nd the 3rd and so on tick, however its DR*0,25 for each tick - so 16 DR means 4 less damage each tick, so 6 ticks with 16 DR means 24 less damage, 77+24=101 damage

 

DoTs are kinda... "the worst" for me... i played chanter over and over again and used DoTs the whole time... what i saw: (and you only get a little part of the "worst", for chanter DoTs the system is much worse)

 

DoTs get rounded damagewise, so the "38.3 Corrode damage over 3.3 secs" would most likely be 2 damage ticks (one when you apply it, one after 3 secs, since DoTs apply every 3 secs), the damage is rounded to full damage numbers in 3 sec intervalls - DoT crits only last longer, the damage per tick isnt affected - however that leads to lower damage most of the time...

 

(in your example: you deal 4 damage ticks witch 17 damage each, thats 68 damage, +4,5/4*4=72.5 means 1.9 damage is missing... however you still have 0.3 sec duration remaining... if you deal 1.9 damage... its 0.4 damage because of DR and minimum damage, however does minimum damage even apply for DoTs? I dont know - and does the game "show" it? Or is it rounded to zero?)

Edited May 22, 2016 by Reent

[Ronin@]

Hmm, are you sure about this? DR.0.25 for each tick? The way I see it DoT formula is pretty complicated. Yes, the ticks are 3 sec apart but sometimes it adds one last tick at 0 sec, other times it doesn't. In my example there was no "0.0 sec tick" even though there were 0.3 sec left from the 9.3 sec duration. This means that 1.9 is unexplainably missing. Unless... each tick gets rounded and 1.9 damage is the total remainder from the rounding of the 4 ticks.

 

And since Crits don't increase damage, contrary to what combat log displays, does that mean grazes are actually better than crits ? This is just not right...

 

Edit: Did a test with my animal companion. 19 Corrode DR, 4 ticks x 13 damage = 71 damage instead of 74.4. Now... even if these 13 damage ticks are actually 13.49 it still doesnt add up to 74.4. We're obviously missing something here.  It would be nice if someone could shed some light on the whole DoT thing.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Ronin@

[Reent]

crits are better than hits and hits are better than grazes for DoTs - the damage per tick isnt changed, the amount of ticks is changed - so you get a higher amount of damage out of a crit, however since the game works with intervalls of "3 secs" it doesnt give you that much more damage... most of the time it looked like: no difference between 3 and 5 secs, no difference between 6 and 8 secs - so if you have 9 secs duration and add 4.5 secs... you gain one damage tick, so with 9 secs you have 4 damage ticks, with 13.5 secs you have 5 damage ticks - thats a ridiculous bad design, however thats what it looked like to me... but i always only tested the chanter, so i could be wrong (i have an endless amount of DoTs, i never tested this specific case)

 

 

and for your case... you are saying 4*13+19=71... but what about 4*13+4*(19/4) what if you round in that case? how about 4*13+4*5... thats 72, now lets say its 13,49 - makes 74 - how about rounding 74,4 down to 74, rounding 19/4 up to 5, rounding 13.9 down to 13 is possible too - who knows??? Really, the last damage points... a question of rounding...

[Ronin@]

Oh, I thought you said the total damage doesn't change, not the damage per tick. Why would say that a DoT Crit leads to lower damage most of the time then? Anyways, as I said, it's not always divided into 3 sec intervals. Sometimes the remaining < 3 sec get one more tick that does somewhat random damage (can't figure out the formula yet). Still, the total crit damage ends up in the range of about 124-129% which is kind of unerwhelming considering the increased duration too.

 

I'm pretty sure 13.9 doesn't get rounded down to 13. DR could be decimal number too. It doesn't need to be rounded as it's not important. You only round off the total damage as you can't have decimal HP values.

[Reent]

the DoT crits are worthless compared to other crits - the "lower damage most of the time" is about the damage the spell should do with a crit and the damage the spell does with a crit...

not that a crit does less damage than a hit

 

only rounding the total damage is what i would do too, however the game doesnt feel like it only rounds the total damage...

 

and DoTs... wow... really! WoW! its amazing! Chanter's Come Come Soft Wind - with 2 might: -1,5 endurance every 3 secs... with 18 might: -2,5 endurance every 3 secs... you know what?

Every tick deals exactly 2 damage, no difference between 2 and 18 might... rounding is not PoE strongest point... The strongest point is: no matter what is written, test it... it could say A and do B...

[Ronin@]

Desintegration DoT is also inconsistent with the description.  It says 330 damage for 21.8 sec but does 53 damage per tick which amounts to quite a bit more than 330.

Here's an example:

 

 

[Gs11]

DR against DoTs:

 

DR is applied everytime you deal damage, so against the first, the 2nd the 3rd and so on tick, however its DR*0,25 for each tick - so 16 DR means 4 less damage each tick, so 6 ticks with 16 DR means 24 less damage, 77+24=101 damage

 

DoTs are kinda... "the worst" for me... i played chanter over and over again and used DoTs the whole time... what i saw: (and you only get a little part of the "worst", for chanter DoTs the system is much worse)

 

DoTs get rounded damagewise, so the "38.3 Corrode damage over 3.3 secs" would most likely be 2 damage ticks (one when you apply it, one after 3 secs, since DoTs apply every 3 secs), the damage is rounded to full damage numbers in 3 sec intervalls - DoT crits only last longer, the damage per tick isnt affected - however that leads to lower damage most of the time...

 

(in your example: you deal 4 damage ticks witch 17 damage each, thats 68 damage, +4,5/4*4=72.5 means 1.9 damage is missing... however you still have 0.3 sec duration remaining... if you deal 1.9 damage... its 0.4 damage because of DR and minimum damage, however does minimum damage even apply for DoTs? I dont know - and does the game "show" it? Or is it rounded to zero?)

You're wrong,  don't mislead between   normall DoT and  DoT-Periodical dmg such as Ectopsychic Echo.

 

Normally DoT are reduced only once, Ectopsychic Echo is reduced every time, depends on what kind of skill is used.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Gs11

[Reent]

 

DR against DoTs:

 

DR is applied everytime you deal damage, so against the first, the 2nd the 3rd and so on tick, however its DR*0,25 for each tick - so 16 DR means 4 less damage each tick, so 6 ticks with 16 DR means 24 less damage, 77+24=101 damage

 

DoTs are kinda... "the worst" for me... i played chanter over and over again and used DoTs the whole time... what i saw: (and you only get a little part of the "worst", for chanter DoTs the system is much worse)

 

DoTs get rounded damagewise, so the "38.3 Corrode damage over 3.3 secs" would most likely be 2 damage ticks (one when you apply it, one after 3 secs, since DoTs apply every 3 secs), the damage is rounded to full damage numbers in 3 sec intervalls - DoT crits only last longer, the damage per tick isnt affected - however that leads to lower damage most of the time...

 

(in your example: you deal 4 damage ticks witch 17 damage each, thats 68 damage, +4,5/4*4=72.5 means 1.9 damage is missing... however you still have 0.3 sec duration remaining... if you deal 1.9 damage... its 0.4 damage because of DR and minimum damage, however does minimum damage even apply for DoTs? I dont know - and does the game "show" it? Or is it rounded to zero?)

You're wrong,  don't mislead between   normall DoT and  DoT-Periodical dmg such as Ectopsychic Echo.

 

Normally DoT are reduced only once, Ectopsychic Echo is reduced every time, depends on what kind of skill is used.

 

 

You are saying:

normal dots (lets say dragon thrashed dragon wailed) are reduced only once... so some questions:

what do you mean? Only the first damage tick uses DR?

The full damage the DoT would deal is reduced by the DR?

 

Since its not clear for me what you mean i will simply use math to show that you are wrong in either case:

If only one damage tick would use the DR one damage tick would deal a different amount of damage, thats not the case (ok, the last tick can differ - depending on the duration it can be a lowered damage tick)

If the DR would count against the full damage the DoT would deal the amount each tick deals would differ if you crit or graze (higher amount of total damage, so the DR would be less relevant)

Hey, thats not the case too!

That one shows that the DoT deals damage depending on the targets DR... i could show more ticks to show that its not just one tick where the DR matters.

One crit one graze - both same damage per tick. So the duration has nothing to do with the damage each tick deals - and that means the DR isnt substracted from the total amount.

So what do you want? Saying "you are wrong" come on, a bit more input please. Those 2 screenshots show that the DR reduces each and every tick - not the total amount and not just one tick.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Reent

[Gs11]

 

If the DR would count against the full damage the DoT would deal the amount each tick deals would differ if you crit or graze (higher amount of total damage, so the DR would be less relevant)

You have typicall Dot effect ( not periodical, IIRC dragon thrashed dragon wailed  is periodical) which does pierce/fire etc damage.

You deal  i.e  43,3 pierce over  dmg 10 sec like Your desc. says. Remember it's a STANDARD DoT-base ticks 3 sec.

Enemey has a 12 pierce DR.

calc: numbers of ticks: 10 sec+3 sec/3 (rounded down)=You will have 4 ticks

43.3/4=10,825->10

than You will have only ONE  DR substracted 10-12*0,25=7  every tick will have the same value 7 dmg

 4 ticks *7 dmg= 28 overall dmg

 

It's like  one overall attack for DoT effects and than  DR, so yes every tick have the same value.

For DoT such as Ectopsychic Echo that are reduced by DR every time they hit,  they have severals seperate attacks( multiplie attacks,acc,DR)- and values  should be diffrent.

 

and that's the diffrence

 

 

check  debug calc old thread

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1693196

Edited May 26, 2016 by Gs11

[Reent]

 

 

If the DR would count against the full damage the DoT would deal the amount each tick deals would differ if you crit or graze (higher amount of total damage, so the DR would be less relevant)

You have typicall Dot effect ( not periodical, IIRC dragon thrashed dragon wailed  is periodical) which does pierce/fire etc damage.

You deal  i.e  43,3 pierce over  dmg 10 sec like Your desc. says. Remember it's a STANDARD DoT-base ticks 3 sec.

Enemey has a 12 pierce DR.

calc: numbers of ticks: 10 sec+3 sec/3 (rounded down)=You will have 4 ticks

43.3/4=10,825->10

than You will have only ONE  DR substracted 10-12*0,25=7  every tick will have the same value 7 dmg

 4 ticks *7 dmg= 28 overall dmg

 

It's like  one overall attack for DoT effects and than  DR, so yes every tick have the same value.

For DoT such as Ectopsychic Echo that are reduced by DR every time they hit,  they have severals seperate attacks( multiplie attacks,acc,DR)- and values  should be diffrent.

 

and that's the diffrence

 

 

check  debug calc old thread

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78410-proper-debugger-breakpoints-dot-hot-tests/?do=findComment&comment=1693196

 

hmmm dragon thrashed was changed - the description is only damage per 3 secs, not the "over X secs" anymore.

Okay, i forgot to create a screen with the "13 13" before casting the +4 DR - however it was "13 13", same dot, but with 4 DR more - "12 12"... so no, its not applied "once", each and every damage tick is done individually...

 

and the difference between my "every tick" and your "once (but for every tick)" is nothing - as long as DR and multipliers dont change... so really, what do you want?

Sure, you dont have to roll acc again... but a dot doesnt need to roll acc more than once.

Dragon Thrashed is a DoT... you apply it once and it deals damage until the time is over... thats the purest form of a dot.

[Kaylon]

The total damage of the DOT is reduced by the DR and the result is equally distributed over the entire duration of the dot. And you can't trust the displayed numbers because the numbers are rounded to integers an not all ticks are displayed.

[Reent]

The total damage of the DOT is reduced by the DR and the result is equally distributed over the entire duration of the dot. And you can't trust the displayed numbers because the numbers are rounded to integers an not all ticks are displayed.

wrong.

The total amount of Damage is split into ticks, after that the tick is applied every 3 secs and the math (at least the DR reduction - i think the might buffs would change the damage too, but i really dont care...) is done every 3 secs

 

 

this time for a "total amount of damage" spell... this time with a monk and iron wheel...

[Kaylon]

I thought it was obvious the ticks were every 3s. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Kaylon

[Reent]

The total damage of the DOT is reduced by the DR and the result is equally distributed over the entire duration of the dot. And you can't trust the displayed numbers because the numbers are rounded to integers an not all ticks are displayed.

 

 

I thought it was obvious the ticks were every 3s. 

 

So you understand what i wanted: no, the total amount is not reduced by DR, the individual ticks are.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Reent

[Kaylon]

Ok, let's take the first example for the people who still don't get it...

 

Your spell does 74.4 corrode dmg over 9.3s and the guy has 4.5 corrode DR. Then your final damage should be 74.4-4.5=69.9 over 9.3s. To calculate the damage of each tick you have to do 69.9/(9.3+3)*3=17.0. And you should have a last tick (which might be displayed or not) at 9.3s doing 69.9/(9.3+3)*.3=1.7s which is rounded down to 1. The final damage will be 17+17+17+17+1=69. 

 

A graze will reduce the duration of the dot to half - which means you'll do 74.4/(9.3+3)*(4.65+3)=46.2dmg over 4.6s. A crit will increase the duration by 50% - that means you'll do 74.4/(9.3+3)*(13.95+3)=102.5 dmg over 13.9s.

[Ronin@]

 

 A crit will increase the duration by 50% - that means you'll do 74.4/(9.3+3)*(13.95+3)=102.5 dmg over 13.9s.

 

There's still a problem. Check out my example of a crit vs 16 DR in my first post. I'm not sure why you add 3 to the duration but either way using your formula I get 80 damage rounded down. What I saw was 77 damage. The last tick was shown so there's nothing to amount for the missing 3 damage. 

 

And a bonus question - why do we have 6 ticks at 13.95 sec duration if damage ticks every 3 seconds?

Edited May 27, 2016 by Ronin@

[Kaylon]

 

 

 A crit will increase the duration by 50% - that means you'll do 74.4/(9.3+3)*(13.95+3)=102.5 dmg over 13.9s.

 

There's still a problem. Check out my example of a crit vs 16 DR in my first post. I'm not sure why you add 3 to the duration but either way using your formula I get 80 damage rounded down. What I saw was 77 damage. The last tick was shown so there's nothing to amount for the missing 3 damage. 

 

And a bonus question - why do we have 6 ticks at 13.95 sec duration if damage ticks each 3 seconds?

 

0-3-6-9-12-13.95 that's 6 ticks. The game rounds down the final damage - ie if you do 6.9-6.9-6.9 it will display 6-6-6 and your final damage will be 20, not 18.

[Ronin@]

So not only do we not see the last tick most of the time but the damage we see isn't even the real damage too. Makes it really hard to keep track of things with so many hidden stuff going on. 

 

P.S: 6.9+6.9+6.9 equals 20.7 which should be 21 real damage.

[Loren Tyr]

I'd say to some extent it doesn't matter, insofar you generally don't need to know the precise amount of damage being done anyway. But I agree that it is annoying not to know how something works mechanically, and DoT effects are rather murky. On the one hand it does in many ways behave and appear to be implemented as a single attack stretched out in time, but in others it does not, ie. the damage after DR is recomputed at each tick; if you apply for example an elemental damage DoT and drink a Bulwark potion halfway through, subsequent ticks will do less damage.  

[Reent]

Ok, let's take the first example for the people who still don't get it...

 

Your spell does 74.4 corrode dmg over 9.3s and the guy has 4.5 corrode DR. Then your final damage should be 74.4-4.5=69.9 over 9.3s. To calculate the damage of each tick you have to do 69.9/(9.3+3)*3=17.0. And you should have a last tick (which might be displayed or not) at 9.3s doing 69.9/(9.3+3)*.3=1.7s which is rounded down to 1. The final damage will be 17+17+17+17+1=69. 

 

A graze will reduce the duration of the dot to half - which means you'll do 74.4/(9.3+3)*(4.65+3)=46.2dmg over 4.6s. A crit will increase the duration by 50% - that means you'll do 74.4/(9.3+3)*(13.95+3)=102.5 dmg over 13.9s.

 

You are wrong - and i posted enough screenshots that show that you are wrong.

 

You say: the damage the spell does is determined the moment the spell hits (since thats when the math is done) - i posted screenshots where i changed the DR while the DoT was active, the damage changed=wrong assumption that the damage is determined at the start.

 

You are saying: a hit will do 74.4 damage over 9.3 secs and a graze does 46.2 damage over 4.6 secs... and this total amount is reduced by DR and after that each tick is determined... that would mean a graze would deal less damage per tick (4.5 DR is about 10% damage reduction for 46.2 damage and about 6% of 74.4 damage)... however i posted a screen where a crit and a graze dealt the same damage against a target with DR...

 

So, every single point you made is wrong (okay, rounding is a part of the game - thats a true part) - gimme an example where your statement is proven right, i posted some screens that proved you are wrong... just writing "but i am right" does't do anything.

 

Let me just math the example for a crit, 102.5 damage... 16 DR... 5.633333 damage ticks... 102,5-16=86,5 total damage, 86,5/5,6333=15,3 damage each tick with 9,7 damage last tick...

with DR/4 each tick... its 102,5/5,6333-4=18,195-4=14.195 damage each tick... with 7,5 damage last tick... sounds familiar? Round a bit and the numbers are the ones given in the example.

 

 

i wont reply anymore (at least until one post shows (with examples) that i am wrong, i know that i can be wrong... but every test i did proved the things i read here... wrong):

 

Since i was called a "less than nice gamer" i will go the extra mile.

 

Gimme examples examples examples, dont just write write write - i posted screens that proved you wrong, i just showed you math that proved it again, so... examples or:

Leg Dich niemals mit einem Idioten an. Zuerst holt er Dich auf Sein Niveau runter und dann schlägt er Dich mit Seiner jahrelangen Erfahrung.

(that one is attributed to the fact that you dont even try to understand what i post - you say: (no, those are no direct quotes) "the damage is determined at the start" - my answer? "the math is done every 3 secs" your answer? "i thought it was clear that the damage is dealt every 3 secs"... PLEASE read a bit more before you post)

[Loren Tyr]

I did some tests as well just to get things straight for myself, I come to the same conclusions as Reent. Base damage (eg. 3 for Deep Wounds, 10 for Necrotic Lance) is multiplied by standard damage multipliers (Might, etc.), which for the last tick is also multiplied by the tick fraction. A flat 0.25 x DR is then deducted from this, the resulting number is the damage applied for that tick (values aren't rounded internally, even though they are displayed as such). This is recomputed every tick, so if stats like Might or DR change halfway through that is taken into account. I've also found that the fractional tick at the end doesn't occur if the fraction is too small, the threshold seems to be 1/3 of a tick, so 1 second (this seems to be tied to the tick fraction itself, it is independent of the amount of damage it would have done). 

 

And indeed, crits and grazes don't affect the damage per tick, just the duration.

[Loren Tyr]

Just as an addition, by the way, note that not all DoT effects work this way. Most of them do, the ones with a fixed base damage per tick. In some cases however, the total DoT damage is fixed instead, and these work a bit differently. For example Enduring Flames, which adds a DoT worth 50% of the original weapon damage (before DR; it gets the Might damage multiplier applied again as well, though crit/graze only extends duration). Given this total damage value, the damage per tick becomes (total damage) x 3 / (duration). This will actually add up to more than the total damage most of the time; for example, at a duration of 10s there will be 4 ticks at 0.3 x (total damage), is 1.2 x (total damage) in all. These "damage plus DOT" type effects don't get a fractional tick at the end.

 

Curiously, this mechanism means that your character is better off being really dumb, because high INT means the same amount of damage is spread over a larger number of ticks. This means that it will take longer for the damage to be dealt, and since tick damage is deducted a flat 0.25 x DR the damage dealt can also be considerably lower. 

 

Anyway, hope this is helpful to anyone interested.

[Kaylon]

Indeed the damage of each tick checks vs 0.25DR and if the last tick has 1s or less it will be lost. DOT damage is affected however only by the might bonus.