Rogue Questions

[Stasis_Sword]

Couple quick rogue questions:

 

1). Which of the high level (9+) abilities are worth getting? Obviously death blows is amazing but I'm less sure about the other ones.

 

2). Since Reckless Assault and Savage Attack don't seem to stack any more which do you consider the better choice?

 

3). To my knowledge all damage bonuses are additive (criticals, death blows, reckless assault, might) does that mean that rogues effectively get the least benefit from investing in might?

[Jojobobo]

1) Sap is a great ability, even though the duration is shorter you get two per encounter and the debuff Stun offers is pretty damn serious. Plus you can chain it to the other debuffs to get crit duration and more Deathblows (Withering Strike debuffs Will which the effect of Sap targets, Sap debuffs reflex which the effect of Blinding Strike targets - you get the picture). Smoke Cloud is pretty sucky as from what I remember it doesn't do damage and the duration is short (and the debuff of Distracted is pretty crap anyway), for Shadow Step and Feign Death honestly I don't really see much of a point - you can easily get Shadowing Beyond/Escape/whatever for these "get of of dodge" effects, two more seem unnecessary. Feign Death does give you an extra Invisibility and it is per encounter (I think) so if you're big on Backstab you can get some use there, but otherwise I would invest in the pre-level 11 abilities more.

 

2) Reckless Assault offers damage and accuracy, Savage Attack offers damage but reduces accuracy. There's no contest in my mind, even if you want to make your Rogue tanky if you're running a large shield you can almost think of it has having that large shield for free, but with more damage (+8 Reckless Assault accuracy, -8 shield accuracy, x1.2 damage) - at least kinda if you ignore the sucky Deflection of the Rogue to begin with.

 

In any case, if your going for DPS you're not going to be caring overly about your Deflection, and if you're going tank the benefit far outweighs the cost. Reducing accuracy, even if it's just melee accuracy, never is a great idea IMO - if you really want an extra ability slot take Savage Attack instead but otherwise I'd always take Reckless Assault.

 

3) I thought Might and Reckless Assault were at least multiplicative, I've not really drilled down into the numbers I'm getting to confirm this yet (and besides I've yet to get Deathblows on my solo play to see its effects). Regardless, MIG is definitely useful for things like spell scrolls/bindings on a Rogue - with the Rogue's high natural accuracy you can really get good hits in with these and they also benefit from Deathblows.

 

Overall, I'd say mainly for debuff duration so you can proc Deathblows, INT is the most important attribute on a Rogue. Whether you are going tanky or DPS, you definitely don't want to dump this - and I'd really say you should be looking at least 15 for a minimum.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Stasis_Sword]

Jojobobo thanks for the advice.

 

3) I thought Might and Reckless Assault were at least multiplicative, I've not really drilled down into the numbers I'm getting to confirm this yet (and besides I've yet to get Deathblows on my solo play to see its effects). Regardless, MIG is definitely useful for things like spell scrolls/bindings on a Rogue - with the Rogue's high natural accuracy you can really get good hits in with these and they also benefit from Deathblows.

 

Overall, I'd say mainly for debuff duration so you can proc Deathblows, INT is the most important attribute on a Rogue. Whether you are going tanky or DPS, you definitely don't want to dump this - and I'd really say you should be looking at least 15 for a minimum.

 

I was thinking something like:

M: 14 - A little bonus but not worth pumping

C: 8 - A minor penalty

D: 18 - Improves attack speed and casting speed

P: 15 - Hitting things is good and I like some of the dialog options

I: 15 - Duration, increased AOE for spells. Shame it doesn't effect traps

R: 8 - A minor penalty

[Elric Galad]

I would really max Dex, so if your race/background can allow it, don't hesitate to put 19 or 20. Second priority is Per. 15 is ok.

 

My last rogue had 13 might. Might is relatively meaningless on a rogue.

 

I prefer letting Con and Res to 10 as Rogue goes to melee.

Int is not so useful to deserve a 10% endurance malus.

[Jojobobo]

For DPS to me that looks great, depending on how glass cannon you want to go you could pick up a + concentration item like Swadling Sheet and dump RES even further but tbh I think you're current setup will work well enough as is.

 

On my own tank build I've taken from the start MIG 19, CON 17, DEX 4, PER 14, INT 16 and RES 8 as a point of reference, looking for more slow and steady damage output with Retaliation and Deep Wounds over high DPS (with RES being boosted with items and the Caed Nua bonus later). PER 14 was so I could get PER 15 with Song of the Heavens (I don't have any room for a PER item unfortunately) and INT 16 for INT 20 with Gwyn's Band of Union and 50% durations - but all these are fairly arbitrary and for me was mostly about hitting nice round numbers. The MIG is for higher Deep Wounds, which you likely won't need or be taking (a little pointless if you're not in combat for long) - but overall there's obvious overlaps between the two setups which should be common to most Rogues.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Braven]

1. None of them. Remember, you can always take lower level abilities. I think both level 1 abilities, for example are better

 

2. I would take Reckless.

 

3. I like Might for healing. Rogues, being squishy benefit a lot from healing items like Shod-in-faith boots, which are boosted from might. Also easier to trigger since rogues often have a low deflection score. Veterans recovery talent is another good option.

[Stasis_Sword]

1. None of them. Remember, you can always take lower level abilities. I think both level 1 abilities, for example are better

 

Out of curiosity is there a reason you would take a second level 1 ability over sap, or were you referring of the other high level abilities?

 

3. I like Might for healing. Rogues, being squishy benefit a lot from healing items like Shod-in-faith boots, which are boosted from might. Also easier to trigger since rogues often have a low deflection score. Veterans recovery talent is another good option.

 

Excellent point. I hadn't considered that all the other bonuses only effect damage.

 

 

Can any of the resident formula experts confirm my assumption in #3 that all those damage bonuses are additive?

[Braven]

I meant withering strike and fearsome strike. I would take Sap for sure; great ability. However, that is a level 13 ability, not a level 9 one.

 

Might is an additive bonus. You are right that it is not as impactful, damage-wise for rogue because they already have access to a lot of additive bonuses and they don't have any multicative damage forms which benefit more from might (like paladin and monk's lashes or ranger's wounding ability). If you don't plan of using self-healing I would be very tempted to not bother with might at all, unless you want to quick switch guns or only use ranged attacks. Then you probably want max might just because other stats are less helpful.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Braven

[KDubya]

The only high level abilities I like are Sap and Feign Death can have use if you have backstab and also have the cloak that casts invisible when crit.

 

Reckless Assault is a great ability, +8 accuracy is worth a talent on its own. This lets you use a large shield for free or better yet use the medium shield with the bashing and the spell proc for Tattered veils and still have +4 accuracy.

 

All the damage is additive so you are correct that Rogues have the easiest time leaving Might at a base 10 without really changing their damage output.

 

I like to dump Intellect on Rogues and add it to Resolve. With the new distracted when flanking ability you can set up your own deathblows just by positioning, no need for depending on any self induced afflictions or caring about their duration. Deep Wounds resets with every hit so Intellect only helps if you are trying to affect multiple people at once. 

 

My Rogues tend to go with something like this:

Boreal Dwarf or Heath Orlan (the one with the crits)

Might 12

Con 10

Dex 18

Per 18

Int 3 (4 if I'll be using Tall Grass as you need a minimum of a buffed 8 (easy to get with food and one item) Intellect to chain prone with a two hander) Using a fast flail with stun  (starcaller) lets you get by with a 3.

Res 17

 

Using the bash shield with the spell proc and Starcaller he gets a lot of crits which will stun lock and kill a single target pretty fast

[Kaylon]

 

With the new distracted when flanking ability you can set up your own deathblows just by positioning, no need for depending on any self induced afflictions or caring about their duration.

Unless something changed distracted doesn't allow sneak attack/deathblows.

[Elric Galad]

Yes, it does. When WMI was released, it was added to the list of status triggering sneak attack and deathblow.

[Blunderboss]

If you are bringing a full party with your rogue , forget crap like Distraction ( you will always have deathblows with full party , and distraction talent is too unreliable on tough fights , or by the time u start using it fight is already over) , Stack on per encounter abilities that Increases damage dealt  ( Blinding,Cripling,Withering ) , stack on escape/positioning abilities ( you gonna need those most with full party ) , get finishing blows , those really matter in tough fights . If you are with party you dont need : to have high perception , priest can add like +50 accuracy , you want to have 10 con and 10 res at least so you dont become main target for enemy spellcasters , intelect on a rogue that is rolling with party should always be 10 you dont want your own durations to be shorter then intended but you dont need them to be longer either , DEX - if you will have 0 recovery 15 , if you not gonna have 0 recovery max it . Rest points in Might , yeh rogues get least from might bla bla bla , 20 Might is +30% Damage , 30% even when added to 200% is still 30% damage it does not become better or worse from the fact that you already have ton of it . Increasing PER , RES , INT , CON over 10 is meaningless on a rogue that has a full party IMO , unless you want high resolve for Dialogue Options .

When your rogue has 150 Accuracy later in the game you will regret putting anything into perception( it is helpful early but late game might is always superior ) , when your 5 second debuff with 10 intelect is enough to kill that enemy 3 times over you will regret having high intelect ( or if you plan to ever use Feign Death ... Int increase prone duration ... ) .

 

Take Cipher for Phantom Foes , Stack as much survival as you can ( best to have +30% bonus damage to flanked from survival , +10% from boots/armor/eye patch ) , he will also be able to Going in Between your rogue which gives a ton of survivability .

Use Fellstroke( even if ambushing is not certain to do anything +2 Stealth helps you remain invisible when fight starts )to start fights later in the game and then switch to your melee weapons preferably using Quick Switch Belt , Fellstroke(or any other firearm) easy does 100 damage with rogue when opening a fight ( I usually stay stealthed on Flank until enemies engaged my party and got debuffed , then attack enemy backline )

 

Reckless Assault is always better than savage attack because it dumps Deflection stat you not gonna have enough on DPS rogue nomatter what , but increases accuracy same as 18 PER ( Thus allowing you to keep PER at 10 )

My last playtrough MC Rogue , constantly buffed by Cipher and Priest was unstoppable ( Phantom Foes + Painfull Interdiction is Instant Deathblows on all battlefield) , After you get two decent Sabres there is not enough of + Damage Modifiers u can stack , nothing else matters too ( except maybe escape abilities which are amazing to move trough battlefield and get to targets you need to kill fast , or save yourself or your  teammate with Coordinated Positioning  )  . 

 

Also i have a feeling that next patch rogues gonna get buffed a bit atleast some of their useless stuff will be changed maybe its worth to wait 

Edited April 21, 2016 by Blunderboss

[KDubya]

If you are bringing a full party with your rogue , forget crap like Distraction ( you will always have deathblows with full party , and distraction talent is too unreliable on tough fights , or by the time u start using it fight is already over) , Stack on per encounter abilities that Increases damage dealt  ( Blinding,Cripling,Withering ) , stack on escape/positioning abilities ( you gonna need those most with full party ) , get finishing blows , those really matter in tough fights . If you are with party you dont need : to have high perception , priest can add like +50 accuracy , you want to have 10 con and 10 res at least so you dont become main target for enemy spellcasters , intelect on a rogue that is rolling with party should always be 10 you dont want your own durations to be shorter then intended but you dont need them to be longer either , DEX - if you will have 0 recovery 15 , if you not gonna have 0 recovery max it . Rest points in Might , yeh rogues get least from might bla bla bla , 20 Might is +30% Damage , 30% even when added to 200% is still 30% damage it does not become better or worse from the fact that you already have ton of it . Increasing PER , RES , INT , CON over 10 is meaningless on a rogue that has a full party IMO , unless you want high resolve for Dialogue Options .

 

 

 

It really depends on your party. I don't bring Priests and usually don't have any casters. I don't have the entire enemy field crowd controlled all the time. For me, with my team set up and house rules distraction is a great ability. With it I can send my Rogue around the flank of the melee scrum and roll them up setting up my own deathblows just by flanking. I also give my Rogue, usually Devil, a shield to help her survive in melee.

 

For accuracy buffs I'm limited to Gallant's aura, weapon spec, the Druid cross class marking, Reckless Assault, enemy debuffs from chants and flanking. With my set up an additional +8 from Perception is noticeable especially for the first eight levels. I also avoid re-speccing a major change like 18 Perception  to start and then 10 Perception later.

 

My Rogue will roll with Starcaller and chain stun with a fast weapon. Now that weapon stun effects are true stuns they are the go to weapon of choice for me. Prone is really inferior to stun. Mabec's Morningstar, Cladhaliath, Borreasine and Starcaller are weapons to build around now instead of We Toki and Tall Grass.

[Kaylon]

Yes, it does. When WMI was released, it was added to the list of status triggering sneak attack and deathblow.

I tested again and Persistent Distraction doesn't allow Deathblows.

[Blunderboss]

It never did, that ability is bad in practice anyway

Edited April 25, 2016 by Blunderboss