Post 3.0: Paladins.....

[PizzaSHARK]

 

You can do fine on PotD with a Kind Wayfarer two handed sword with 18 Might, 15 Per, 15 Res and everything else a 10. A 10 intellect is enough for the entire front line. He led the team in damage output.

 

I always bring one Paladin, for my playstyle I like them much more than a priest.

 

I'd say all Orders can be viable, you just need to identify what your role is and then build for that purpose. I'd drop a Fighter long before I'd ever even think about dropping a Paladin. Fighters do nothing for the team and are outshone by both Monks and Rogues for damage with Paladins giving them a run for their money with Alpha FoD and surpass them once you get Sacred Immolation. Best of all just about everything is per encounter, no need to rest or save your powers.

 

Kdub, I think that you're being a little over the top when saying that Fighters do nothing for the team.  Sure, they may not be the highest DPS characters.  OTOH, my experience is that their durability and strong if not spectacular damage output makes a fighter a rock in a party's front line.  Also, if you want to try to find ways to minimize or at least reduce your micromanagement of the team, fighters tend to be fairly hands off compared to other front liners, like monks.

 

Mind you, I'm not dissing Paladins when I say this.  I like having a paladin around as well, even if I don't expect him or her to be a spectacular damage producer. 

 

 

Fighters are probably the most reliable class in the game, and also have the highest base stats.  They're ridiculously tanky at mid levels, even without using a shield.  Unbending is ridiculously good and with up to three uses in a single fight (boss fights), the Fighter basically can't be killed.  Confident Aim and Disciplined Barrage let them reliably hit even high Deflection monsters, and they have a wide variety of control abilities, most of which are PE rather than PR.

 

Fighters don't have the highest throughput, but they're almost entirely self-sufficient.  They don't often need healing, they don't often need ACC buffs, and you can even make them permanently immune to Fear and Terrified if you'd like.  Personally, I'm a big fan of a damage-oriented Fighter that uses Defender and Overbearing Protector.  You can easily bait the enemy into breaking Engagement by sticking someone squishy nearby, which allows the Fighter to proc incredibly powerful and accurate Disengagement Attacks.  Defender (and optionally Hold the Line) just make it even more powerful, though taking Defender means you won't be able to use any other modal abilities at the same time (no Savage Attack, Vulnerable Attack, etc.)

 

Giving Fighters some points in Lore is also really great.  It's not a class skill for them, but honestly... skills still aren't very useful except for one mandatory Mechanics class and the required 3 Athletics to remove Fatigue from the game.  You aren't out too much by going for 4 or so Lore to be able to use some basic scrolls (particularly buff or CC scrolls.)

Edited June 19, 2016 by PizzaSHARK

[PizzaSHARK]

^ that's a fair counter argument, they are indeed a bastard hybrid - and it's fairly close to Brim's argument that they are basically a poor priest and a poor fighter - and why choose that when you can just have a fighter and priest than will perfom better together than a pally alone, which you're probably gonna be doing either way.

 

To that I don't really have a counter argument other than they are pretty good at being said hybrid - they can replace either class if you play them right, they offer a decent buff and a decent tank or dps ability. But yeah they don't really shine or stand out on their own beyond Sacred Immolation and Sworn Enemy, I wish they did too.

 

In many ways they remind me of Druids, who are kinda a mix between rangers, priests/wizards and rouges.

 

Because they provide things that Fighters and Priests don't.  They have stats almost equal to the Fighter's (best base stats in the entire game) with their passive defense bonuses, while the Priest has some of the worst stats in the game.  Their auras provide substantial permanent bonuses to everyone in range, and with the class specific boots and some INT, that range is easily large enough to cover all front-line characters and even characters using mid-range weapons.  Exhortations are per-encounter abilities with extremely fast cast times, and at least in Liberating Exhortation's case, it doesn't care what type of effects they're under, it's all suppressed.  Prayers are great for eliminating specific conditions, but they're PR abilities, not PE, and they only affect a small number of conditions for a short period of time.

 

Paladins also get access to an extremely potent short ranged heal which is ALSO PE rather than PR, and powerful passives like +10 ACC to the nearest ally attacking their target, the ability to instantly end any Charm or Dominate spell with a quick punch to the affected ally, a massive +30 bonus to all defenses against Charm and all similar afflictions (on top of their already stellar Will defense), and extremely powerful late game abilities like immolation.  A Paladin with Flames of Devotion, Intense Flames, immolation, and Scion of Flame can produce absolutely absurd damage output against enemies that lack high Burn DR, especially with the Forgemaster's Gloves item to allow access to the Firebrand spell (or Durance's Quarterstaff, I suppose.)

 

I mean, it's fine if a person doesn't find Paladins to be fun to play with or play as.  I can understand that.  I'm not big on Ciphers myself, despite people talking them up a lot.  But to say that Paladins are weak or are pointless is just flatly wrong.  I can't think of many parties that aren't substantially improved by having a Paladin around.  Much like Fighters, they may lack another class's throughput or specialization, but they're incredibly reliable and consistent and generally have the highest base Defense in the game thanks to Faith and Conviction.

[Elric Galad]

 

 

You can do fine on PotD with a Kind Wayfarer two handed sword with 18 Might, 15 Per, 15 Res and everything else a 10. A 10 intellect is enough for the entire front line. He led the team in damage output.

 

I always bring one Paladin, for my playstyle I like them much more than a priest.

 

I'd say all Orders can be viable, you just need to identify what your role is and then build for that purpose. I'd drop a Fighter long before I'd ever even think about dropping a Paladin. Fighters do nothing for the team and are outshone by both Monks and Rogues for damage with Paladins giving them a run for their money with Alpha FoD and surpass them once you get Sacred Immolation. Best of all just about everything is per encounter, no need to rest or save your powers.

 

Kdub, I think that you're being a little over the top when saying that Fighters do nothing for the team.  Sure, they may not be the highest DPS characters.  OTOH, my experience is that their durability and strong if not spectacular damage output makes a fighter a rock in a party's front line.  Also, if you want to try to find ways to minimize or at least reduce your micromanagement of the team, fighters tend to be fairly hands off compared to other front liners, like monks.

 

Mind you, I'm not dissing Paladins when I say this.  I like having a paladin around as well, even if I don't expect him or her to be a spectacular damage producer. 

 

 

Fighters are probably the most reliable class in the game, and also have the highest base stats.  They're ridiculously tanky at mid levels, even without using a shield.  Unbending is ridiculously good and with up to three uses in a single fight (boss fights), the Fighter basically can't be killed.  Confident Aim and Disciplined Barrage let them reliably hit even high Deflection monsters, and they have a wide variety of control abilities, most of which are PE rather than PR.

 

Fighters don't have the highest throughput, but they're almost entirely self-sufficient.  They don't often need healing, they don't often need ACC buffs, and you can even make them permanently immune to Fear and Terrified if you'd like.  Personally, I'm a big fan of a damage-oriented Fighter that uses Defender and Overbearing Protector.  You can easily bait the enemy into breaking Engagement by sticking someone squishy nearby, which allows the Fighter to proc incredibly powerful and accurate Disengagement Attacks.  Defender (and optionally Hold the Line) just make it even more powerful, though taking Defender means you won't be able to use any other modal abilities at the same time (no Savage Attack, Vulnerable Attack, etc.)

 

Giving Fighters some points in Lore is also really great.  It's not a class skill for them, but honestly... skills still aren't very useful except for one mandatory Mechanics class and the required 3 Athletics to remove Fatigue from the game.  You aren't out too much by going for 4 or so Lore to be able to use some basic scrolls (particularly buff or CC scrolls.)

 

 

Fighter is a bit like Hidan in the Akatsuki (a group of powerful ninjas in Naruto's world).

 

He's the "weakest" member of the crew because his "only" power is to be immortal 

 

OK, I'm simplifying a bit and agree with your description, but I think it's not totally false.

And there's charge too ! It is a bunch of AoE damages Spike.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Infantry]

Pallegina is awesome now and her utility is great and her two order specific abilities are quite excellent unlike the Paladin orders that are available to players to play except for may be Kind Wayfarers........I used her with two handed melee weapons, bound Grey Sleeper to her and gave her consecration boots and she totally pulled her own weight and even then some ..............she was a formidable presence on the field and rolled like a boss however I cannot say the same of the Paladin orders available for players to play.........

 

I find Bleak Warrior undesirable to play because there is a head item in the game that does exactly what Black Path does and you don't have to land a killing blow either, it just does it when enemies are in range......

 

Dracozzi seem alright but not sure why Inspiring Liberation doesn't work on them, specially when you consider chanter and priest buffs affect everyone including themselves..

 

Goldpact knights there are several items in the game that does what Bond of Duty does, so whats the point?

 

Shieldbearers, I find it crap that they do not get any bonuses to their shield wielding ability and Sheilding Flame is not so good since it doesn't boost the paladin himself unlike chanters or priests.........

 

Also my biggest disappointment with Paladins is that they are supposed to be a melee class for the most part but they don't have any close quarter combat class talents at all..... I know they are meant to be melee support characters who can take on some damage but nobody attacks them and player Paladins specially the tanky ones are terrible at hitting stuff (on PotD) also. and by the mid game with priest buffs and chanter buffs your party is basically shrugging off most CC attacks launched by enemy so there is really not much to be dispelled either so seriously what's the point of this class? Can Paladins be reduced to Zealous Auras only?

 

I mean I am still trying figure out how to play this class so that it makes a difference.....Priest prayers against special effects like fear, charm, confusion are all fast to average casts and can easily be maintained throughout the whole fight, if one keeps an eye on the timer.......so I don't see much utility in Paladin's abilities.....

 

Yes a Paladin can still outshine other classes only when the player is partial to over play them and under play the rest of the classes well below their potential......at least that's what I have found out so far with my Shieldbearer........

 

PS. I am still sharing my experience, which is going totally against what some of the people are saying and I am not trying to make an statement by any means.....

 

Thread necro, sorry. IMO Goldpact is the best paladin order post-3.0, given the fact that you are not penalized for having a Cruel reputation and that Bond of Duty provides IMMUNITY against Charmed, Confused and Dominated for ~20 seconds...this can be cast (fast) twice per encounter.

[Gromnir]

if you like an order, then it is the best.

 

...

 

'course the truth o' the matter is Frermàs mes Canc Suolias is actual best for a striker paladin... making this kinda a trick question.  otherwise, we would say the best option for a tanky paladin during the first half o' the game would be Darcozzi Paladini. the liberating exhortation accuracy bonus is just too good compared to other options early in the game. latter in the game we would give the nod to Shieldbearers of St. Elcga as accuracy bloat largely nullifies the Darcozzi Paladini benefits. Bleak Walkers is a darn solid option from start to finish for a sinister tank, but later patches reduced the number o' foes who can be frightened.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps if you are playing w/o a priest, then Kind Wayfarers deserve serious consideration as "the best" option. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Gromnir

[Infantry]

You're right, "best" is subjective in this case; however, I believe that is objectively better to have on-demand immunity (twice per encounter) to some of the most debilitating afflictions rather than +10 to accuracy twice per encounter. Furthermore, the roleplaying options are broader for a character that only has to avoid Aggressive and Passionate dispositions.

[Gromnir]

You're right, "best" is subjective in this case; however, I believe that is objectively better to have on-demand immunity (twice per encounter) to some of the most debilitating afflictions rather than +10 to accuracy twice per encounter. Furthermore, the roleplaying options are broader for a character that only has to avoid Aggressive and Passionate dispositions.

there is myriad options for avoiding those debilitating afflictions which is relative infrequent encountered during the course o' the game. +10 accuracy will be useful every encounter.  so, if one is being actual objective and measuring use o' the relative paladin powhaz...

 

and rp is wholly subjective.  each order gots 2 disfavored dispositions.  

 

aside: 'cause o' how ai now works, minor arcane spell reflection cast on party member with worst will save is a hilariously effective solution in most charm/confuse instances.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Infantry]

Fair point. I would actually question whether either order-specific trait is worth two ability points given the fact that Liberating Exhortation isn't that compelling in light of the myriad options of avoiding / mitigating negative status effects. Two ability points for +10 accuracy...doesn't seem like an ideal use of ability points.

 

With regard to the RP point, I was alluding to missing out on the opportunities (will not reference them to avoid spoilers) presented to characters with Cruel disposition points, which would be disfavored for all orders but Goldpact.

[Gromnir]

Fair point. I would actually question whether either order-specific trait is worth two ability points given the fact that Liberating Exhortation isn't that compelling in light of the myriad options of avoiding / mitigating negative status effects. Two ability points for +10 accuracy...doesn't seem like an ideal use of ability points.

 

With regard to the RP point, I was alluding to missing out on the opportunities (will not reference them to avoid spoilers) presented to characters with Cruel disposition points, which would be disfavored for all orders but Goldpact.

bleak wankers have cruel as favored, so...

 

you get liberating exhortation for 1 ability point, which is an ability we take for any support paladin regardless.  is hardly as if one is throwing away ability points to get to the accuracy boost.  and yeah, particular early in the game, +10 o' accuracy is huge. accuracy is more than d&d thac0 as it also pivotal in determining graze/hit/crit which affects not only damage output but any number on-crit effects.

 

if we were playing a main character striker paladin, we would consider goldpact.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Infantry]

 

Fair point. I would actually question whether either order-specific trait is worth two ability points given the fact that Liberating Exhortation isn't that compelling in light of the myriad options of avoiding / mitigating negative status effects. Two ability points for +10 accuracy...doesn't seem like an ideal use of ability points.

 

With regard to the RP point, I was alluding to missing out on the opportunities (will not reference them to avoid spoilers) presented to characters with Cruel disposition points, which would be disfavored for all orders but Goldpact.

bleak wankers have cruel as favored, so...

 

you get liberating exhortation for 1 ability point, which is an ability we take for any support paladin regardless.  is hardly as if one is throwing away ability points to get to the accuracy boost.  and yeah, particular early in the game, +10 o' accuracy is huge. accuracy is more than d&d thac0 as it also pivotal in determining graze/hit/crit which affects not only damage output but any number on-crit effects.

 

if we were playing a main character striker paladin, we would consider goldpact.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Makes sense.  What would be the benefit of Goldpact as a MC striker paladin?  Would love to hear your suggestions with regard to that build as well, thanks.

[KDubya]

If you are playing with the descriptors off for the dialogue choices (and you really should for a role. not roll, playing game), then the easiest dialogue choices are for the Kind Wayfarer. The reason being that they have the easiest to avoid negative dialogue of Dishonesty and Cruel. Not lying is very simple and Cruel is also easily avoided. Benevolent is usually easy to aim for and Passionate sometimes gets mixed up with Aggressive but both are acceptable.

 

I find an ass kicking champion who aggressively and passionately vanquishes evil to make for a good Kind Wayfarer and the scaling AoE heal on kill is a game changer at early levels.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Fair point. I would actually question whether either order-specific trait is worth two ability points given the fact that Liberating Exhortation isn't that compelling in light of the myriad options of avoiding / mitigating negative status effects. Two ability points for +10 accuracy...doesn't seem like an ideal use of ability points.

 

With regard to the RP point, I was alluding to missing out on the opportunities (will not reference them to avoid spoilers) presented to characters with Cruel disposition points, which would be disfavored for all orders but Goldpact.

bleak wankers have cruel as favored, so...

 

you get liberating exhortation for 1 ability point, which is an ability we take for any support paladin regardless.  is hardly as if one is throwing away ability points to get to the accuracy boost.  and yeah, particular early in the game, +10 o' accuracy is huge. accuracy is more than d&d thac0 as it also pivotal in determining graze/hit/crit which affects not only damage output but any number on-crit effects.

 

if we were playing a main character striker paladin, we would consider goldpact.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Makes sense.  What would be the benefit of Goldpact as a MC striker paladin?  Would love to hear your suggestions with regard to that build as well, thanks.

 

sorry 'bout the delay.  

 

goldpact gets enduring flame, which is a damage over time effect triggered by flames of devotion.  so you build a striker paladin around flames of devotion.  obviously need take flames of devotion and enduring flame.  scion of flame boosts all your flame damage.  intense flames enhances your flames of devotion.  tag a foe with sworn enemy and then hit 'em with your flames of devotion.

 

both dual wield and two-handed weapons is viable, but we would recommend 2-handed 'cause of forgemaster gloves.  you will see all kinda builds which rely on durgan steel and whatnot.  durgan's steel is nice.  the thing is, you are gonna play much o' the game w/o all the bat-crap crazy optimized 1007 folks recommend. might as well play a character who excels the entire game rather than only during last 1/3.   forgemaster gloves are available early in the game.  forgemaster gloves create a universal weapon which does pure fire damage... a whole lotta fire damage.  so now we got foes tagged by sworn enemy and being hit by an over-the-top flame weapon which is being modified by intense flames, scion of flame, and enduring flame?  the universal weapon created by forgemaster is universal but is 2-handed, so build 2-handed and then either consider greatswords or quarterstaves.

 

why quarterstaves?  durance's staff is one o' the more underrated weapons in the game 'cause it has a unique quality: it does crush/burn damage. scion of flame modifies durance's staff even though the tooltip don't show it appropriate.  with one o' the very first unique weapons available in the game, you is gonna be seeing a +20% damage boost from scion o' flame.  alternate 'tween forgemaster gloves and durance's staff.  burn everything. ultimately, a durgan's steel enhanced tidefall (greatsword) will  get you better damage than durance's staff. meh. 

 

people get way too worked up over attribute scores in poe.  as a melee combatant you are gonna wanna focus 'pon might and dex, but do not waste much time looking for the perfect attribute spread as you can be xtreme effective with non-optimal attributes.  by mid-to-late portions o' the game, talent, ability and gear choices all eclipse the importance o' your initial attributes when predicting combat success and failure.  even so, regardless o' your starting attribute spread, focus might and dex via gear.

 

earlier in this thread we included a less-than-optimal striker paladin. 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85343-post-30-paladins/?p=1792507

 

can build similar, but go goldpact. main goal is to stack fire damage.

 

edit: am personal seeing an attempt to genuine maximize dps as a mistake for a paladin striker.  paladins is underappreciated as a support class. don't get so focused on trying to make an effective striker that you forget to develop your paladin's support capabilities.

 

aside: remember rakhan field builds for bleak walkers is another option for a dps paladin as you add corrode damage on top o' your burn damage for flames of devotion.  in addition to scion of flame, you take spirit of decay to boost corrode damage. if you get all tingly seeing ridiculous crit hits, you build a ranged  bleak walker with an arquebus and get some o' the highest crit numbers possible in the game.  alternative, choose dual wield and use bettercut, a sabre which does slash/corrode damage.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 27, 2016 by Gromnir

[Elric Galad]

Hehe I was actually planning a mixed Striker and Support.

For example, the +10 Party Deflection bonus from Shieldbearer seems more attractive for me than a twice +25% Lash / +50% DoT Lash from Bleak Walkers or Goldpact's.

 

-------

 

Island Aumaua Shieldbearer

 

Backrow Support and Ranged DPS

 

Might : 21

Con : 10

Dex 13

Per : 10

Int : 16

Res : 8

 

Abilities :

 

1 FoD

3 Zealous Endurance

5 Sworn ennemy (Puts Paladin on "Cipher level of damages" against 1 target, planning to use this for constant DPS with wand)

7 Reviving Exortation

9 Coordinated attack (So good with all these marking weapons)

11 Lay on Hand

13 Sacred Immolation (still good if you position on second row, especially with a rather high Int.)

15 Inspiring Triumph

 

Talents :

 

2 Shielding Flames

4 Marksman

6 Quick Switch

8 Penetrating shot (Good for Wand, Switching weapon bypass recovery anyway)

10 Arms bearer

12 Scion of Flame

14 Intense Flame

16 Deep Faith

 

Planned endgame Weapons (from various categories, which explains absence of Weapon Focus):

1 Dulcanale (alpha strike, quick switch to pliambo)

2 Pliambo (beta strike, marking)

3 Cgadob's Hazel (dual damage types, marking)

4 Shame or Glory + Outworn Buckler (backup melee, marking) (I guess any 1 hander or Blade of Endless paths would work too)

 

The idea is to use FoD Twice with the gun powder weapons, then switch to Wand.

Wand enables more DPS over time and allow supporting any ally with an instant +20 Acc bonus from range.

Against very high DR target, you might prefer using Pliambo instead. 

 

I don't know if it's optimal, but I believe it's a good mix of Support, Pike Damage, Constant Ranged DPS and even AoE with Sacred Immolation).

I like my builds to be quite versatile.

 

The good thing with Paladin is that they can do many things at the same time. They are beasts at action economy.

Many of their support abilities is passive or triggered.

Sacred Immolation is Passive once cast.

They even have an almost instant revive !

 

Dirty Bonus Trick : Pause, switch target, the Marking/Coordinating bonus is instant !

It applies to the nearest "ally attacking the same target".

Not to "nearest ally" "if attacking the same target".

So it's quite reliable, and switching between supported allies is very easy.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Livegood118]

I personally find that the talents that modify the damage of flames of devotion are pretty lacklustre even if you're going for a kill-stealing build.

 

Remember Rakhan Field is only two instances of a 25% lash per encounter. That'll typically add between 7.5 – 20 damage twice per encounter or thereabouts. Enduring flames is about twice that I suppose. 

 

They especially don't seem worth it once you've got Sacred Immolation, which is gonna out DPS anything else a Paladin can throw out.

 

I'd probably rather shore up my defences before I'd take a talent like those. 

[Elric Galad]

Optimal Sacred Immolation only requires 1 talent to work anyway, so investing other talent for FoD won't hinder it.

 

However, I agree that they are overrated. People just want to turn paladin into a damage class that they are not really. It works okayishly so why not. Alpha snipping is quite satisfying

 

Intense flames feels ok to me because it doesn't require to choose a specific order and works with Scion of Flames. Rakhan field is slighly less rewarding unless you go the Bittercut route for these reasons.

[Livegood118]

Scion of Flame does work with Sacred Immolation right? It's a different mechanism from Chanter's Dragon Thrashed which doesn't work with it?

[Elric Galad]

Scion of Flame does work with Sacred Immolation right? It's a different mechanism from Chanter's Dragon Thrashed which doesn't work with it?

 

Yes it does work.

 

Elemental talent does not work on status-like DoT like Dragon Trashed.

But they do work on DoT that periodically triggers on an area like Sacred Immolation.

[JerekKruger]

Not lying is very simple...

 

I dunno. When you first meet Zahua, he asks you if you're real and your options are "Yes", "No", "Yes", "No" and a few others. Not lying in this case is somewhat tricky, at least if you want to answer "No" (I think the first yes is not a lie).

 

EDIT: I think I am wrong actually. I believe [Lie] and [Deceptive] are two tags, and that [Lie] should remain even with disposition tags turned off. I might be wrong though.

Edited January 3, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Gromnir]

Optimal Sacred Immolation only requires 1 talent to work anyway, so investing other talent for FoD won't hinder it.

 

However, I agree that they are overrated. People just want to turn paladin into a damage class that they are not really. It works okayishly so why not. Alpha snipping is quite satisfying

 

Intense flames feels ok to me because it doesn't require to choose a specific order and works with Scion of Flames. Rakhan field is slighly less rewarding unless you go the Bittercut route for these reasons.

the corrode damage from rakhan does not supplant fire, but rather is in addition to the +% burn damage from FoD.  so take scion of flame and spirit of decay and wield bittercut or an arquebus for impressive crits... if that is your thing.

 

even so, the paladin were not designed to provide impressive dps

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85484-help-me-build-a-dps-palidan/?p=1791272

 

paladins were envisioned as a low-maintenance support class.  nevertheless, paladins can be built to do other stuff. a dps paladin will never be optimal, and pallegina is still your best bet for a striker who is not meant to be an on-kill healbot.  nevertheless, a poe striker paladin, melee or ranged, can be highly efficacious. 

 

HA! Good Fun!