In game Paladin order that is an arm of a government.

[Torm51]

The Shieldbearers of St. Elcga correct?  They SEEM from their description and I know we have limited lore to go on like an arm of the Aedyran Military.  After all they were essential in the creation of the country.  Or do you think they are just an Order that operates primarily in Aedyr and usually supports that government but makes its own decisions.  Kind of like the Jedi in Star Wars.  They support and fight for the Republic but if they don't agree with something the Republic is doing like an unwanted war.  They do not have to fight in it.  What do you guys think?

 

I know the Darcozzi Paladini USED to be but Old Valia isn't a unified country anymore so they are loyal to the old royal family only.  The Wayfarers are obviously not affiliated with a nation.  Goldpact Knights are mercs and the it seems like the Bleak Walkers are too except as their employer if you change your mind about what you hired them for and don't want someone dead they will do it anyway...where as the Goldpact Knight is willing to change as the pact has been made with the employer and not the objective.  The Bleak Walkers only care about the objective.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Torm51

[JerekKruger]

I interpreted the Shield Bearers as having been formed during a military conflict, but not being part of the military any more. I don't think I am basing this off anything though.

 

The Frermàs mes Canc Suolias are, as I understand it, essentially an arm of the Vailian Republic government I think.

[Karkarov]

The shield bearers of saint Elega are not a part of government, they work primarily as bodyguards for important people or places.  They can be associated with a government but as a organization on the whole are not tied to any specific government.  Many individual paladins could work for a government, but no whole order will be controlled by one.  Other than the aforementioned darcozzi paladini assuming the old royal Valian family takes over again one day.

 

EDIT:  I should throw out there that there are plenty of paladin orders we might not know about yet that could theoretically be controlled by or directly allied with a standing government.  None of them we "know" exist though are, except on an individual, or temporary basis.  Such as a unit of Goldpact Knights fighting for Aedyr until XYZ conflict is resolved.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Karkarov

[Sannom]

Does the Order of Five Suns count? They are directly under the authority of the Ducs after all.

[JerekKruger]

Does the Order of Five Suns count? They are directly under the authority of the Ducs after all.

 

I thought they were a Paladin order dedicated to protecting and serving the Vailian Republics. If so, they would theoretically be bound to go against the Ducs in cases where the Ducs wishes run against the best for the republics.

[Torm51]

The shield bearers of saint Elega are not a part of government, they work primarily as bodyguards for important people or places.  They can be associated with a government but as a organization on the whole are not tied to any specific government.  Many individual paladins could work for a government, but no whole order will be controlled by one.  Other than the aforementioned darcozzi paladini assuming the old royal Valian family takes over again one day.

 

EDIT:  I should throw out there that there are plenty of paladin orders we might not know about yet that could theoretically be controlled by or directly allied with a standing government.  None of them we "know" exist though are, except on an individual, or temporary basis.  Such as a unit of Goldpact Knights fighting for Aedyr until XYZ conflict is resolved.

 

Does the Order of Five Suns count? They are directly under the authority of the Ducs after all.

The Brotherhood of the Five Suns is definitely one.  The other that is mentioned is the Steel Garrote...possibly.  I am not sure if they work Directly for Aedyr or if they are Paladins of Woedica and happen to work a lot for Aedyr because of the heavy Woedica worship there.

[Karkarov]

 

Does the Order of Five Suns count? They are directly under the authority of the Ducs after all.

The Brotherhood of the Five Suns is definitely one.  The other that is mentioned is the Steel Garrote...possibly.  I am not sure if they work Directly for Aedyr or if they are Paladins of Woedica and happen to work a lot for Aedyr because of the heavy Woedica worship there.

Again not totally sure they actually work for the government and like Jered said aren't simply dedicated to "protecting the country" which does not always mean backing your government.  Garrote are definitely not associated with the Aedyr government, that's a relationship of pure convenience.

 

In other news the biggest mystery of the game....  Why the hell does anyone worship an insane old crone hell bent on maliciously screwing over anyone she doesn't like in the first place?  It isn't like the game doesn't make it clear that insignificant slights are basically enough to make her want to kill you, your family, burn your house down, and eat your dog.  She is like the equivalent of one of those Mayan blood gods.  I could see why some really badly educated people in a terrible situation might worship Skaen but her?  Uh no.

[JerekKruger]

I think the issue as I see it is that Paladins in PoE are defined by (attempting) to follow some principle or ideal, hence unless that principle is literally "work unquestioningly for X government" there is always going to be the possibility that the government will act against the principle that the paladins follow, and hence the paladin will (if they are a good paladin) be obliged to disobey the government.

 

It's a bit like how Goldpact aren't simply mercenaries, since after they've taken payment they'll work to complete their mission even if their employer decides he no longer wants them to. I think most mercenaries would happily not do the job if they could keep the money.

[Torm51]

I think the issue as I see it is that Paladins in PoE are defined by (attempting) to follow some principle or ideal, hence unless that principle is literally "work unquestioningly for X government" there is always going to be the possibility that the government will act against the principle that the paladins follow, and hence the paladin will (if they are a good paladin) be obliged to disobey the government.

 

It's a bit like how Goldpact aren't simply mercenaries, since after they've taken payment they'll work to complete their mission even if their employer decides he no longer wants them to. I think most mercenaries would happily not do the job if they could keep the money.

I agree with the first part that unless the like minded warrior society mission is to protect x government it would be impossible for a Paladin Order to be part of a government.  But The Knights of the Crucible have a lot of Paladins.  They are a Dyrwoodan Paladin Order....or are they?  I know a lot of their members are Paladins.  Like Penhelm.  They also have Fighters and Priests in their ranks but I am sure plenty of Paladin Orders have other members who are not Paladins.  Just like the Knights Templars had members who were not Knights.  Or maybe they are just a military arm of the government in which Paladins join.

 

I don't agree with the Goldpact Knight assessment as the game specifically quotes that they are willing to shift direction if their employer does.  Which makes sense why their favored dispositions are Rational and Stoic.  I think they form a contract with the employer (with payment of course) and when the contract terms have been met they are done.  Then and only then.  That also means if the employer who formed the contract with them no longer wants to pursue the original objective and is done with the mission.  So are they.  The contract is done.  What you are describing I think is Bleak Walkers.  Maybe I am off.

 

 

 

 

 

Does the Order of Five Suns count? They are directly under the authority of the Ducs after all.

The Brotherhood of the Five Suns is definitely one.  The other that is mentioned is the Steel Garrote...possibly.  I am not sure if they work Directly for Aedyr or if they are Paladins of Woedica and happen to work a lot for Aedyr because of the heavy Woedica worship there.

Again not totally sure they actually work for the government and like Jered said aren't simply dedicated to "protecting the country" which does not always mean backing your government.  Garrote are definitely not associated with the Aedyr government, that's a relationship of pure convenience.

 

In other news the biggest mystery of the game....  Why the hell does anyone worship an insane old crone hell bent on maliciously screwing over anyone she doesn't like in the first place?  It isn't like the game doesn't make it clear that insignificant slights are basically enough to make her want to kill you, your family, burn your house down, and eat your dog.  She is like the equivalent of one of those Mayan blood gods.  I could see why some really badly educated people in a terrible situation might worship Skaen but her?  Uh no.

 

 

I agree.  But then you could ask why the Mayans worshipped crazy blood gods.  People are just inherently selfish and think they if they are her favored when she reigns so will they.

[Torm51]

Secondly, what are the Shieldbearers then?  I thought they were warrior Diplomats for Aedyr and mediated for other individuals as well.  After all they were instrumental in forming what the Aedyr empire is in its current day.  I know our lore knowledge is limited as a lot of this has not been fleshed out but its fun to talk about

[JerekKruger]

I agree with the first part that unless the like minded warrior society mission is to protect x government it would be impossible for a Paladin Order to be part of a government.  But The Knights of the Crucible have a lot of Paladins.  They are a Dyrwoodan Paladin Order....or are they?  I know a lot of their members are Paladins.  Like Penhelm.  They also have Fighters and Priests in their ranks but I am sure plenty of Paladin Orders have other members who are not Paladins.  Just like the Knights Templars had members who were not Knights.  Or maybe they are just a military arm of the government in which Paladins join.

 

I don't agree with the Goldpact Knight assessment as the game specifically quotes that they are willing to shift direction if their employer does.  Which makes sense why their favored dispositions are Rational and Stoic.  I think they form a contract with the employer (with payment of course) and when the contract terms have been met they are done.  Then and only then.  That also means if the employer who formed the contract with them no longer wants to pursue the original objective and is done with the mission.  So are they.  The contract is done.  What you are describing I think is Bleak Walkers.  Maybe I am off.

 

That's a good question regarding the Crucible Knights. I'd tend to view them as a military order rather than a paladin order, though as you mention we don't really have enough lore knowledge to know the difference. Certainly if they are a paladin order then they're similar to the Five Suns in their association with their government, although perhaps their guiding principle is the independence of the Dyrwood from outsiders. That said, if they are a paladin order then I'd say an awful lot of them are poor examples.

 

You're probably right about the Goldpact Knights, I think I confused their lore with the Bleak Walkers. I suppose they're still different to ordinary mercenaries insofar as they they won't betray their employer if offered more gold (I think?).

 

Secondly, what are the Shieldbearers then?  I thought they were warrior Diplomats for Aedyr and mediated for other individuals as well.  After all they were instrumental in forming what the Aedyr empire is in its current day.  I know our lore knowledge is limited as a lot of this has not been fleshed out but its fun to talk about 

 

An order interested in seeing diplomacy given every chance to succeed, regardless of when, were and between whom? Any time a diplomatic option becomes available in a conflict they'll offer their services to protect the parties?

[FlintlockJazz]

I get the feeling that the St Elcga lot started off as just the guys who defended that bint, who then set up their Order or had people set up the Order in their honour, and it just grew from there.  So they wouldn't have been an official grouping I guess, but would have history with Aedyr at least.  I'm guessing even the orders set up to defend a nation are not actually part of the government, though the ideal they are following may drive them to join the government on a personal level.  The Five Suns one though seems to have actual orders from the Ducs, and disobeying seems to have consequences, so it sounds like they are a part of the Vailian Republics government in some official way at least.

[Torm51]

 

I agree with the first part that unless the like minded warrior society mission is to protect x government it would be impossible for a Paladin Order to be part of a government.  But The Knights of the Crucible have a lot of Paladins.  They are a Dyrwoodan Paladin Order....or are they?  I know a lot of their members are Paladins.  Like Penhelm.  They also have Fighters and Priests in their ranks but I am sure plenty of Paladin Orders have other members who are not Paladins.  Just like the Knights Templars had members who were not Knights.  Or maybe they are just a military arm of the government in which Paladins join.

 

I don't agree with the Goldpact Knight assessment as the game specifically quotes that they are willing to shift direction if their employer does.  Which makes sense why their favored dispositions are Rational and Stoic.  I think they form a contract with the employer (with payment of course) and when the contract terms have been met they are done.  Then and only then.  That also means if the employer who formed the contract with them no longer wants to pursue the original objective and is done with the mission.  So are they.  The contract is done.  What you are describing I think is Bleak Walkers.  Maybe I am off.

 

That's a good question regarding the Crucible Knights. I'd tend to view them as a military order rather than a paladin order, though as you mention we don't really have enough lore knowledge to know the difference. Certainly if they are a paladin order then they're similar to the Five Suns in their association with their government, although perhaps their guiding principle is the independence of the Dyrwood from outsiders. That said, if they are a paladin order then I'd say an awful lot of them are poor examples.

 

You're probably right about the Goldpact Knights, I think I confused their lore with the Bleak Walkers. I suppose they're still different to ordinary mercenaries insofar as they they won't betray their employer if offered more gold (I think?).

 

Secondly, what are the Shieldbearers then?  I thought they were warrior Diplomats for Aedyr and mediated for other individuals as well.  After all they were instrumental in forming what the Aedyr empire is in its current day.  I know our lore knowledge is limited as a lot of this has not been fleshed out but its fun to talk about 

 

An order interested in seeing diplomacy given every chance to succeed, regardless of when, were and between whom? Any time a diplomatic option becomes available in a conflict they'll offer their services to protect the parties?

 

I think the difference with the Goldpact Knight and run of the mill mercs is that they under NO circumstance will betray the employer once the payment has been made.  I will not give away any spoilers on these forums even if its unrelated but here is an example. 

 

An example of the difference between Goldpact Knights and regular mercenaries I think can be seen in the latest season of Game of Thrones.  Their is a certain general/lord who has hired mercenaries to form the majority of his army as his was decimated.  This Lord commits an unspeakable atrocity while on campaign..lets just use the execution of the enemies women and children as an example.  The next day  he is missing the majority of his forces as all the mercs he hired deserted an account of this atrocity that he committed.  All he had left was a token force of loyalist. 

 

If an Order of Goldpact Knights existed in that world they would not have left no matter the diabolical acts that the Lord commits.  If it does not violate the contract and the job still needs to be accomplished and the employer is still marching towards that goal they will stay.  End of Story.  Gold is  a binding contract and the contract must be complete.  They have no time to judge their employers for their actions.  The mission must be complete.

[Torm51]

I get the feeling that the St Elcga lot started off as just the guys who defended that bint, who then set up their Order or had people set up the Order in their honour, and it just grew from there.  So they wouldn't have been an official grouping I guess, but would have history with Aedyr at least.  I'm guessing even the orders set up to defend a nation are not actually part of the government, though the ideal they are following may drive them to join the government on a personal level.  The Five Suns one though seems to have actual orders from the Ducs, and disobeying seems to have consequences, so it sounds like they are a part of the Vailian Republics government in some official way at least.

Agreed with the assessment of the Five Suns.  What d you mean by bint?