Dual wield or 2H Rogue

[Anaeme]

I dont have a clear answer which is better between dual wielding or 2-Hander for the melee rogue

 

Can folks who have tested rogues share their experience?

 

 

Also what is the better choice between might and res?

[mosspit]

The 2H rogue I see most commonly recommended around here is the Tall Grass wielder. The weapon has inherent crit conversion, together with the rogue crit abilities, makes the prone effect proc frequently. It is a second line attacker that is meant to attack behind a tank.

 

Dual wielders (usually ruffian) goes in to attack after the fontline has been formed and enemies chosen their targets. The advantages of a dual wielder is that there is more dps due to faster attacks. Also, rogue's strike abilities are full attacks (except for the lvl13 one based on description?). So the strikes, besides having a inherent dmg increase, will land twice which increase dmg further and also increasing the affiction proc chance. The downside is that you probably need some survivability, and taking Shadowing Beyond is highly recommended.

 

Res up to the point you are comfortable, then might (assuming dex and per are allocated). Might's dmg increase is diluted by rogue's multiple dmg modifiers. Since might's dmg contribution is additive, the actual dmg increase is less than that on the stat screen.

Edited November 7, 2015 by mosspit

[Anaeme]

Thanks @mosspit nice of you to share some tips

[mosspit]

You're welcome Anaeme

[dudex]

I havent completed the game in 2.03 yet but currently replaying it as a rogue.

 

going 2h early game is terrible dps wise (dw with a plate attacks faster then 2h naked.). Just toss the heaviest armor on your rogue and let him go beat  stuff with DW. Late game when u can spam potions and stack attack speed, u can respec to 2handers.

 

also i would ignore resolve altogether. the best way to survive is to not be targeted. If you wear heaviest armour and have a decent hp pool the enemies doesn't seem to want to go for you over the other front liners (i use eder and pallegina). Even if they target you it wont hurt that  much with 20+ DR.

 

Max all dps stats, rest in constitution, dump int + resolve would be my recommended stats.

 

yes your will saves will be godawful but you can have your reliable paladin bail you out of CCs.

Edited November 7, 2015 by dudex

[Mocker22]

As stated Tall Grass is a nice option for the reach, and just overall a great weapon. The other really nice choice imho is Estocs. Blade of the Endless Paths is a beast for the attack speed and who doesn't like DR ignore.

 

Personally I liked my rogue to have light to medium armor. Basically light enough that Durgan Steel + maybe the gloves that give-10% penalty can wipe out any attack speed penalties. BotEP can also help make up the difference. Estocs probably offer the greater dps in the long run but its close with the inherent synergy for Tall Grass and rogues.

 

As stated above the best defense with a rogue Is to not get hit. I want to max out my dps potential and rely on solid tanks and CC to stay alive.

[rheingold]

I'd go dual wielding Sabres in heavy armor. High dex, resolve and perception. You can leave everything else including strength at 10 if you are not a min/maxer, otherwise feel free to drop below. Heavy armor really helps with surviving. And the speed penalty with dual wielding and high dex is not much and that's pre durgan steel!

Resolve by itself is not going to make a substantial difference to deflection, I'd take the defensive talents as well. Not sure of their names, but the one that minimizes the deflection penalty for the rogue damage modal is good. With that and high resolve you can find a good 10 points or so of deflection. For me, with a rogue there is no question that resolve is much better than strength. It adds a bit of deflection, will saves and lots of conversation choices. Might just adds a bit more damage which frankly you won't even notice, and some healing benefits, again they don't make much of a difference.

For me playing with tall grass felt boring, I like the micro management of a dual wield rogue. Also the damage output of dual Sabres is bat**** insane. In fact it's overkill, so much so strength is irrelevant.

[Ksajal]

Dual wielding rogues are better. If all you want is damage, then go with Sabres. They have the damage of 2H. And there are 3 very good sabres in the game:

- Resolution - .5 crit modifier, that means it hits as hard as the Hours of St. Rumbalt, but without the prone, and you can get it at level 5-6.

- Bittercut - dual damage, slash/corrode, you can get it about level 6-7.

- Purgatory - again, the .5 crit modifier, healing, about level 7-8. The healing is very good, with deathblows you are going to crit for about 80 damage, that means 16 endurance.

 

The .5 crit modifier is very good on a rogue because they have dirty fighting (+20% hit to crit), very high accuracy (reckless assault and high perception), there's the durgan steel enchantment, you can use potions of merciless gaze and there's also the level 3 priest spell for hits to crits. That's 70% hits to crits, which is insane. As a side note, the best way to build a rogue is max per and dex, increasing might is a waste of points because might damage is aditive, while per and dex multiplicative, and rogues already have a lot of bonus damage from sneak attack/deathblows/reckless assault.

 

Going with sabres has another advantage: you have access all damage types as one-handed weapons, sabres are slash, stilettos are piercing and clubs are crush. Useful when you come across immunes.

 

Another good build is dual battle axes (all have .5 crit modifier):

- We Toki  - prones on crit, you can get it about level 7-8.

- Edge of Reason - this is very hard to get, but it's superb and has healing.

 

Battle axes don't do as much damage as the sabres (lower base damage), but they are more defensive (because of the prone). On the other hand, the only other 1h weapon for the Knight weapon focus group is the sword, and there aren't any good swords. You'll probably have to use some other weapons as backup. Right now I'm using We Toki + Purgatory (I'm specced for battle axes because I need the extra crits for We Toki).

 

You don't need plate armor for a tanky rogue. A  very good armor (in my opinion) is Wayfarer's Hide, you can get it as soon as you start the White March (about level 6-7). 11 DR, huge defenses against hobbled/stuck/paralyzed (the latter two very useful because you don't have high fortitude), and 25% recovery penalty. That can be lowered to 10% with Durgan Steel, which is barely noticeable, even with average speed weapons.

 

Dual wielding, like others have said, is very good because abilities like crippling strike, blinding strike and finishing blow trigger a full attack, that means you get to hit with both weapons, one after the other. Finishing blow is particularly good with dual wielding, because they will have even lower health after the first hit. For example, with sabres, with the second attack I did 157 damage to the lightning dragon at level 9. Or 250 to the forge guardians at level 11 (they were set up for deathblows).

 

There's also another defensive option with dual wielding: Spelltongue (for the attack speed buff, it affects both equipped weapons) and Mosquito (for the healing and interrupt, it has a 0.75s interrupt rating). They were so much fun that I chose them over dual Resolution/Bittercut.

[Ksajal]

Oh, and you only need base resolve for a rogue. You have reinforcing exortation/shields for the faithful/crowns for the faithful/the level 2 priest aura/potion of Llengrath displaced image  if you ever find yourself in need of deflection (most of them don't stack though). The max +9 deflection you could get from resolve isn't worth the 27% increased attack speed or +9 perception (which also means more interrupts, so more defense for your rogue) you trade.

 

There are other ways to keep yourself alive: good positioning at the start of the fight, weapons with draining, weapons that prone, and if you're in a lot of trouble, shadowing beyond. Shadowing Beyond is not worth it, imo, if you get knocked out in a difficult fight, just get resurrected (you can use scrolls, a priest, a paladin or Ydwen's Redeemer for that, lots of options), same thing, and you don't waste a talent.

[Anaeme]

I have noticed that Strength is not as significant as Perception or Dexterity...not something I expected, but seems to be the way it works.

Also to see the damage in action my team is having to set up blindness, prone, etc

 

However when the rogue starts striking the damage numbers are a sight to behold!

Edited November 7, 2015 by Anaeme

[Crucis]

I read a post a while back (probably long before WM1 was released) where the player posted his dual wielding stiletto rogue.  He was very pro-stiletto due to the DR bypass that all stilettos get, and some get additional DR bypass, plus you can select a feat that adds even more DR by pass.  So you end up with these tiny little weapons that look like they'd be so weak but are actually doing a lot more damage than you'd ever expect.

 

 

Regardless, a dual wielding rogue seems like it'd be fun, though I can see where it might be useful to have either a ranged weapon or a pike (or Qstaff) in reserve for when your rogue is really beat up and needs to fight from behind your tanks.

[Crucis]

Ksajal, while there's nothing wrong with Battle Axes, I'm not sure that the Knight weapons group is such a good one overall for a melee rogue.  When you look at the Ruffian group, it seems like the entire mix of weapons is a pretty decent fit for a melee rogue, but game play wise and RP wise.

[Mocker22]

Dual wielding rogues are better. If all you want is damage, then go with Sabres. They have the damage of 2H. And there are 3 very good sabres in the game:

- Resolution - .5 crit modifier, that means it hits as hard as the Hours of St. Rumbalt, but without the prone, and you can get it at level 5-6.

- Bittercut - dual damage, slash/corrode, you can get it about level 6-7.

- Purgatory - again, the .5 crit modifier, healing, about level 7-8. The healing is very good, with deathblows you are going to crit for about 80 damage, that means 16 endurance.

 

The .5 crit modifier is very good on a rogue because they have dirty fighting (+20% hit to crit), very high accuracy (reckless assault and high perception), there's the durgan steel enchantment, you can use potions of merciless gaze and there's also the level 3 priest spell for hits to crits. That's 70% hits to crits, which is insane. As a side note, the best way to build a rogue is max per and dex, increasing might is a waste of points because might damage is aditive, while per and dex multiplicative, and rogues already have a lot of bonus damage from sneak attack/deathblows/reckless assault.

 

Going with sabres has another advantage: you have access all damage types as one-handed weapons, sabres are slash, stilettos are piercing and clubs are crush. Useful when you come across immunes.

 

 

 

 

 

Do the .5x crit modifiers from Resolution and Purgatory stack or does one get suppressed?

[dudex]

dw sabre was the best pre 2.0 but now 2h has the potential to outdamage them.

 

their speed can be matched with enough attack speed stacking and their damage is slightly higher. Also there are weapons with Annihilation available for 2handers.

 

granted it takes a lot of potions and can only be done late game but the potential is there.

 

also no dwing Annihilation will only give +50% not +100% weapon mods only apply to their swing and not the one in the other hand.Only stat that carries over i believe are + might.

Edited November 8, 2015 by dudex

[Boeroer]

Did both several times and both ways are absolutely viable. DPS will maybe be better when you're dual wielding sabres. In that case you can dump your INT because you won't need it. But using an overbearing or stunning two-hander with good INT is a lot of fun and effective. You can get these weapon very early. Tall Grass is good for the extra prones, Hours of St. Rumbalt is great because it not only prones, but also has +0.5 crit damage multiplier. Dps-wise that's better, because if the enemy is prone your next hit will have a higher crit chance - resulting in more prone duration and more crit damage. If you can buy the stunning Mabec's Morning Star from Azurro, then you can also use that together with Interrupting Blows. Stun is more powerful than prone. One handed weapons that cause afflictions on crit come very late. But you can always retrain. Shatterstar (longer interrupt, annihilation) + Godhanthingy (stunning, +1 might) warhammers with interrupting blows is powerful. So is We Toki + Edge of Reason. There is one exception to the rule that one handed weapons with afflictions come very late: Cladhaliath comes quite early in the game when you choose the dozens. The following combination is very nice and often overlooked: use the stunning enchantment for Cladh. plus either the vicious or coordinating one. Then you'll have a stunning spear that does either +20% dmg when the target is stunned (nice synergy with itself) or has +4 ACC when you attack an enemy together with a teammate. Second, use the Vile Loner's Lance. It causes -5 defense on hit. Put the Lance in your right and Cladh. in your left hand. You will hit for -5 defense and then attack with Cladh. for stunning - repeat. On top oft that comes the fact that all spears have +5 ACC. That's good for causing crits. Together that can be +18 Acc for your stunning blows without buffs from others: -5 defense(lance), +5 acc(spears), +4 acc (coordinating cladh.) and +4 from mob justice (dozen's reward talent). You will crit very very often and can combine this with minor threat from orlans and durgan refinement for even more crits. That's one oft the best setups I ever encountered - the only thing is that dual wielding spears looks kind of odd.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Boeroer

[Ksajal]

...

Do the .5x crit modifiers from Resolution and Purgatory stack or does one get suppressed?

 

The .5 modifier from Resolution applies only to Resolution, the .5 modifier applies to Purgatory. That's how all weapon mods work. Same with Durgan Steel: the 15% increased attack speed and 20% hit to crit applies only to the enchanted weapon.

 

The only weapon mod that applies to all the equipped weapons is the enchantment on Spelltongue: the 15% attack speed stolen applies to the off-hand weapon too (or bashing shield most likely, haven't tested this). The stat mods apply to everything, of course, the stat bonuses apply to everything.

 

@Crucis: There aren't too many slash immune (or highly resistant) mobs in the game. I would venture to say that about less than 5% of the enemies that you encounter fall into this category. For those rare instances you can use weapons from another weapon group. Rapiers come to mind because they have a native bonus +5 to accuracy (so your overall accuracy will only be lower by 1 point) and there are some great rapiers in the game. Very easy to get too (Sword of Daenysis and Mosquito, you can buy them as soon as you finish the Caed Nua quest).

 

We Toki is such a good weapon because the rogue gets both a passive way of applying its sneak attack damage (so it doesn't require that much of a constant baby sitting) and a very strong debuff which is useful both offensively (applies sneak attack and lowers deflection, so more crits) and defensively (the enemy cannot attack). On the other hand, dual battle axes have lost some of their appeal with the latest patch because so many creatures now have prone immunity, including some of the more annoying ones, like spirits.

 

@Boeroer: Are you sure that the stun from weapons is a true stun, as in it triggers the sneak attack and applies the stun penalties? When a mob is stunned by a weapon, they don't get the stun affliction, but the weapon name affliction and the cursor doesn't change into the sneak attack cursor.

 

EDIT: Tested it again, it isn't a true stun, see my post below.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Ksajal

[Ksajal]

The stun from weapons aren't true stuns, they don't apply status effects and don't trigger sneak attacks.

 

EDIT: tested on a teammate and on an adra beetle with Godansthunyr.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Ksajal

[Boeroer]

That's bad. When I used this setup with a barb it worked like a charm with carnage. Entire groups were stunlocked for the whole fight - but he had no sneak attack of course. I mean it doesn't matter if it's the "official" stun or just another affliction with the same name as long as it works like it. Some other weapons also apply effects like wounding but when you take a look at the enemy it says "Tidefall x sec" instead of "wounded". But that's OK because these effects work with Combusting Wounds or Predator's Sense. But if this special weapon stun doesn't trigger sneak attacks - that's just stupid and must be a bug. Thanks for finding out!

Edited November 8, 2015 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Wrote a bug report. I found an old posting from may that said the same thing (vers. 1.04). Nobody ever answered to that.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Boeroer

[Ksajal]

Thank you, getting this fixed would open up quite a few options for rogues (or priests of Skaen). They got pretty nerfed with the new immunities, getting sneak attack afflictions is harder now.

[KDubya]

The stun effect from weapons is like a big interrupt. It also does not confer any bonuses to hit or anything like the prone effect does. I think stun is like -30 to deflection so it might be a balancing thing as to why weapons don't apply the true effect.

[Teioh_White]

Yeah, it'd be a bit kooky if they did, as once a weapon proc'd a stun, it'd get +30 to proc'n another one, leading to really easy stun locks.

 

For what' it's worth though, Ranger's Stunning Shot is a real stun, and it just needs to be on hit, so that can really fuel a team ripping through targets. Toss in Scon Mica's Roar for harder targets, and it's not tough to give the team +60 acc.

[Anaeme]

Rogues in WM 2.0

 

Still good as main or choose another class

[Abalon]

kinda retarded good i got a new cloak that gives me escape per encounter and converts grazes to misses also got gloves that give me insane buffs per kill im level 9 my rogue is over 100k dmg next closest is eder at like 30k. dual sabers op

 

the real question is what item should i duplicate given the expansion hmm..  im wondering if 2h rogues are worth once  you get the warhammer of opness?