Why hatchets?

[Heijoushin]

 

I don't know about anyone else, but I was never trying to convince you, Heijoushin. The problem is, no one seems to have a purely logical reason for why the hatchet has a deflection value. There might not be one. Unless and until one of the devs comes in to give a more or less official answer, speculation will be all we have. ...But I don't think anyone means disrespect. We're just discussing the issue that you broached.

My point about the utility of the hatchet wasn't that it started out as a tool and therefore could block. Rather, it was from the angle that, just because it serves as a tool does not mean that it doesn't function very well as a weapon and could *not* block. The relationship between utility and blocking wasn't causal. It might have utility as a tool but nevertheless have utility as a weapon and one such utility *might* be deflection, but I don't know.

At any rate, I gladly give opinions. All the time. I don't know that they mean much, but I seem to have a bag of infinite holding that contains nothing but personal opinions. :Cant's wry grin icon:

Uh, yeah. I didn't mean to imply that convincing me was the ultimate goal, or suggest anyone was disrespecting. Was just summing up the arguments. 
 

 

 

you know... one-handed battle-axes (modern terminology for this weapon, but watever) when used by a trained axe man were even more effective than a "hatchet" or any sort of hook/axe in parrying, disabling, catching and hooking. the butt of the battle-axe (this includes inumerable variants, being simplistic here) was also used as an offensive poke and also as a defensive backswing. this is... like, factual man.

shouldn't the PoE axes then also a deflection modifier? i assume a nice +10 since they're bigger and shinier.

hmm sounds like patch undocumented nerfing to me!

 

​Yup. By this kind of logic, any of the higher quality weapons should also have that bonus.

Here's the thing, the hatchet is listed under "peasant weapons". Peasant weapons = low quality things that anyone has access to. Maybe make them super cheap compared to other weapons? Or give the monk bonuses when using them (not just fists, but the full range of peasant weapons).

Another idea: Make a "vambrace" item (I think that's the right term? An armguard thing that can be used to deflect strikes). It could give some deflection points, and I think it would look cool.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Heijoushin

[Zenbane]

So far, the arguments we've got:

 

1. It's small and fast (so are many other things)

2. It's a tool not a weapon, therefore it has utility, therefore it can block (what?)

3. The head is heavy, so it can move other weapons off course. (Hmmm... maybe..?)

4. Someone mentioned "hooking axes". Another person mentioned tomahawks. This sounds plausible, except that the in-game art is a pretty boring tree cutting kind of hatchet. 

5. Game balance. Nuff said. 

 

I'm not very convinced, but thanks for all the opinions!

You're not convinced? Well I don't think anyone is trying to convince you. No one can convince someone of something if they already are set with their preconceived notions. You have been skeptical with every reply from the beginning, making it quite obvious that your question was rhetorical (you dont believe a Hatchet should have this ability in PoE). Most of the replies have just been fun for the sake of discussion.

 

Also, your supposed "summary" is very misleading. People said that Axes started off as tools and then became weapons, dual-use. You chose to rephrase this to, "Its a tool not a weapon."

 

Anyway, here's an article that does a great job of discussing hatchets in combat: http://www.brownsafe.com/blog/top-10-tactical-tomahawks/

 

I'm sure there are other great articles as well. None of which will convince anyone of anything tho

[Heijoushin]

 

So far, the arguments we've got:

 

1. It's small and fast (so are many other things)

2. It's a tool not a weapon, therefore it has utility, therefore it can block (what?)

3. The head is heavy, so it can move other weapons off course. (Hmmm... maybe..?)

4. Someone mentioned "hooking axes". Another person mentioned tomahawks. This sounds plausible, except that the in-game art is a pretty boring tree cutting kind of hatchet. 

5. Game balance. Nuff said. 

 

I'm not very convinced, but thanks for all the opinions!

You're not convinced? Well I don't think anyone is trying to convince you. No one can convince someone of something if they already are set with their preconceived notions. You have been skeptical with every reply from the beginning, making it quite obvious that your question was rhetorical (you dont believe a Hatchet should have this ability in PoE). Most of the replies have just been fun for the sake of discussion.

 

Also, your supposed "summary" is very misleading. People said that Axes started off as tools and then became weapons, dual-use. You chose to rephrase this to, "Its a tool not a weapon."

 

Anyway, here's an article that does a great job of discussing hatchets in combat: http://www.brownsafe.com/blog/top-10-tactical-tomahawks/

 

I'm sure there are other great articles as well. None of which will convince anyone of anything tho

 

 

Wow! I'm very sorry everyone for the wording that I used! m(_ _)m And for my closed-mindedness! Didn't mean to imply that it was your duty to convince me.

*Please remember that on the internet, it's impossible to accurately read voice tone and body language! That skeptical voice you hear me speaking in isn't necessarily there!

 

Can we continue the discussion instead of taking offence?

Edited November 6, 2015 by Heijoushin

[Cantousent]

lol now we can take offense at your offense. okay okay, we've all been reading into things too much. :Cant's crooked grin icon: Fair enough. I figure, as far as logical and authentic seeming answers, aweigh has had the best responses, but it still comes down to whether or not Obsidz will pop in to let us know, which they have no obligation to do. Otherwise, I figure we can all just speculate. After all, this is the interwebs. It's what we do.

[aweigh0101]

finally guys, i found a proper video hatchet used by a guy properly. hatchets ARE a defensive tool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDFpiw3Ijd8

[JerekKruger]

Yeah, it's a weird one that doesn't make much sense to me beyond game balance reasons. I would have preferred hatchets to share the battle axe's bonus to critical damage, and for swords to have the bonus to deflection (although they might have to make swords slash only to balance this). Other weapons I would see changed are spears gaining reach instead of accuracy and some change to clubs (perhaps higher interrupt).

[Stoner]

Arguments like this is always so much fun...

 

I used to play Chivalry a while back and there were many heated discussions as to why small weapons (i.e. daggers or hatchets) can block massive two handers like Mauls, Claymores or Polearms, they posted tons of videos from medieval and close combat experts describing how it is possible, but truth is: blocking with small arms is more like dodging or it's easier to pull off weapon with free hand/movement.

 

As ppl say it's just gameplay balance, no real sense behind it.

[Zenbane]

My favorite part is that this realism is demanded in a game where there can be a Fire Godlike Rogue... you know, someone hidden by Stealth even though their damn head is a ball of fire. No one has a problem with that... but they'll be damned if a Hatchet can Deflect better than a Dagger lol

Edited November 18, 2015 by Zenbane

[Heijoushin]

My favorite part is that this realism is demanded in a game where there can be a Fire Godlike Rogue... you know, someone hidden by Stealth even though their damn head is a ball of fire. No one has a problem with that... but they'll be damned if a Hatchet can Deflect better than a Dagger lol

 

Well now, that's actually a point. Godlike should get neg. stealth skill for standing out too much;) 

 

Hmmm, I don't think it's realism we want... more like... logic? Even a magical fantasy world needs to have logic to function.

[Zenbane]

I think we are on to something with the helmetless Godlike and their ability to stealth! But you and I are still light years apart when it comes to the idea of hatchets lol

 

I don't see how one can have logic without realism. I mean... the whole idea of Logic is that it is based on the rules (moral, ethical) of a specific reality, or no?

[Heijoushin]

I think we are on to something with the helmetless Godlike and their ability to stealth! But you and I are still light years apart when it comes to the idea of hatchets lol

 

I don't see how one can have logic without realism. I mean... the whole idea of Logic is that it is based on the rules (moral, ethical) of a specific reality, or no?

 

Yup, rules. Every good magic system in fantasy has rules. Whether it's MP points, or a limited amount of spells per day or whatever. You need some kind of limitation or else your mages will be gods who can do anything. 

 

So magic itself isn't realistic. Yet still it works with rules. 

 

Also, unless otherwise stated, we assume that most things in a fantasy world work the same way as in the real world. If it isn't specifically stated that, in this world, hatchets are all blessed with super defensive power, then we must assume that they work the same as hatchets in our world. 

 

[JerekKruger]

Logic here simply means making conclusions about the world (Eora, not earth) given the rules of that world. It in no way relies on the rules of our reality.

 

Another word you could use is consistency. We have no objection to the rules of reality in Eora being different to our own, but once those rules are set down we expect them to remain consistent. Given that it doesn't seem like the rules of physics governing weapons are fundamentally different in Eora, it is reasonable to make conclusions about the properties of weapons in Eora based on our own experiences.

 

EDIT: alternatively, read Heijoushin's excellent post above explaining my point better than I do.

Edited November 18, 2015 by JerekKruger

[Zenbane]

 

I think we are on to something with the helmetless Godlike and their ability to stealth! But you and I are still light years apart when it comes to the idea of hatchets lol

 

I don't see how one can have logic without realism. I mean... the whole idea of Logic is that it is based on the rules (moral, ethical) of a specific reality, or no?

 

Yup, rules. Every good magic system in fantasy has rules. Whether it's MP points, or a limited amount of spells per day or whatever. You need some kind of limitation or else your mages will be gods who can do anything. 

 

So magic itself isn't realistic. Yet still it works with rules. 

 

Also, unless otherwise stated, we assume that most things in a fantasy world work the same way as in the real world. If it isn't specifically stated that, in this world, hatchets are all blessed with super defensive power, then we must assume that they work the same as hatchets in our world. 

 

 

Yes and if they work the same as in our world, there really was no reason to challenge how a Hatchet can Deflect, right? lol

 

You obviously disagree, but not because you have a grand view of rules/logic/realism/consistency... but because you just hate them Hatchets!

[Heijoushin]

 

 

I think we are on to something with the helmetless Godlike and their ability to stealth! But you and I are still light years apart when it comes to the idea of hatchets lol

 

I don't see how one can have logic without realism. I mean... the whole idea of Logic is that it is based on the rules (moral, ethical) of a specific reality, or no?

 

Yup, rules. Every good magic system in fantasy has rules. Whether it's MP points, or a limited amount of spells per day or whatever. You need some kind of limitation or else your mages will be gods who can do anything. 

 

So magic itself isn't realistic. Yet still it works with rules. 

 

Also, unless otherwise stated, we assume that most things in a fantasy world work the same way as in the real world. If it isn't specifically stated that, in this world, hatchets are all blessed with super defensive power, then we must assume that they work the same as hatchets in our world. 

 

 

Yes and if they work the same as in our world, there really was no reason to challenge how a Hatchet can Deflect, right? lol

 

You obviously disagree, but not because you have a grand view of rules/logic/realism/consistency... but because you just hate them Hatchets!

 

 

You got me. Like I said in the OP, if you want to build a super defensive character, a "hatchet-wielding knight" sounds ridiculous

[rheingold]

Having a look at the link with the military tomahawks I really, really want to play a tomahawk dual wielding rogue. Unfortunately the term "hatchet" ruins it for me. Reminds me way too much of unprepared, lazy campers shuffling around hacking frantically at wood, fingers, toes... anything really in range.

It's not the deflection bonus that bothers me, but rather the name and visual design that's lacking.

[JerekKruger]

 

Yes and if they work the same as in our world, there really was no reason to challenge how a Hatchet can Deflect, right? lol

 

The fact that a hatchet can be used defensively is not the issue, it's the fact that the game mechanics make it the best defensive option. Hatchets are axes, and axes by their very design at less well balanced than, say, a sword, since the majority of their weight is concentrated at one end. This makes them good at delivering powerful blows, but less quick to change direction. If we assume that the main way a weapon is used defensively is to parry or deflect enemy blows (the name deflection supports this) then a weapon than is quick and agile is going to do a better job of this. This, I think, is the root of my problem with hatchets being the defensive option.

 

I should add that this is not something that bothers me overly. If this remains forever in PoE I am not going to rage quit. That said, I'd like to see it change in PoE2, though I won't veto the game if it doesn't

 

Having a look at the link with the military tomahawks I really, really want to play a tomahawk dual wielding rogue. Unfortunately the term "hatchet" ruins it for me. Reminds me way too much of unprepared, lazy campers shuffling around hacking frantically at wood, fingers, toes... anything really in range.

It's not the deflection bonus that bothers me, but rather the name and visual design that's lacking.

 

Whilst still a "hatchet", Rêghar Konnek has a model much closer to what I imagine when I hear the word tomahawk. It's also a pretty good weapon now that attack speed is fixed. If you wanted to build a tomahawk wielder that might be an option.

[rheingold]

 

 

Yes and if they work the same as in our world, there really was no reason to challenge how a Hatchet can Deflect, right? lol

 

The fact that a hatchet can be used defensively is not the issue, it's the fact that the game mechanics make it the best defensive option. Hatchets are axes, and axes by their very design at less well balanced than, say, a sword, since the majority of their weight is concentrated at one end. This makes them good at delivering powerful blows, but less quick to change direction. If we assume that the main way a weapon is used defensively is to parry or deflect enemy blows (the name deflection supports this) then a weapon than is quick and agile is going to do a better job of this. This, I think, is the root of my problem with hatchets being the defensive option.

 

I should add that this is not something that bothers me overly. If this remains forever in PoE I am not going to rage quit. That said, I'd like to see it change in PoE2, though I won't veto the game if it doesn't

 

Having a look at the link with the military tomahawks I really, really want to play a tomahawk dual wielding rogue. Unfortunately the term "hatchet" ruins it for me. Reminds me way too much of unprepared, lazy campers shuffling around hacking frantically at wood, fingers, toes... anything really in range.

It's not the deflection bonus that bothers me, but rather the name and visual design that's lacking.

 

Whilst still a "hatchet", Rêghar Konnek has a model much closer to what I imagine when I hear the word tomahawk. It's also a pretty good weapon now that attack speed is fixed. If you wanted to build a tomahawk wielder that might be an option.

 

I'm really stretching here - not an expert on medieval combat at all, but the argument could be that hatchets can potentially snag and catch other weapons? Latching on and hooking weapons could account for it?

To be honest it makes no sense, but I'm trying to find a justification for the deflection bonus....

EDIT: that's a nice weapon there - thanks. Will go nicely with a dual wielder.

Edited November 18, 2015 by rheingold

[Bazy]

 

The fact that a hatchet can be used defensively is not the issue, it's the fact that the game mechanics make it the best defensive option. 

 

This. Hatchet is not only the best, but literally the only defensive weapon. If you want to min-max a tank you are kinda forced to pick it up. 

 

I always thought it was weird to have all my front line people... with hatchets. And then you put them on all your casters in the back too. Since they are casting and not auto attacking they might as well have the defensive stat boost. Pretty odd design in an otherwise good weapon balance system. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Bazy

[JerekKruger]

I'm really stretching here - not an expert on medieval combat at all, but the argument could be that hatchets can potentially snag and catch other weapons? Latching on and hooking weapons could account for it?

 

 

To be honest it makes no sense, but I'm trying to find a justification for the deflection bonus....

EDIT: that's a nice weapon there - thanks. Will go nicely with a dual wielder.

 

The problem with that is it should apply even more to battle axe (at least based off the art) and probably also apply to the pollaxe. I think hatchets were probably given this bonus purely for balance reasons: every melee weapon has one, and only one, special property; Obsidian wanted there to be one that added to deflection; the sword already had the special property of having two damage types so Obsidian decided to give this bonus to the hatchet.

 

Personally I'd prefer the hatchet to share the battle axe's bonus to crit damage (there are already fast and large one handed weapons that share the same bonus) and for the sword, if anything, to get the deflection bonus. Actually I'd probably favour not having any weapon have the deflection bonus as they way I wouldn't feel like I'm gimping my tanks by not using said weapon. Have the defensive use of weapons be purely represented by the cautious attack talent.

[Zenbane]

A Battle Axe and Poleaxe are too large a weapon to do this effectively. The idea isn't just to have a cross-functional tool for deflection, you gotta be lightweight and durable to allow for quick responsive use.

[JerekKruger]

A Battle Axe and Poleaxe are too large a weapon to do this effectively.

 

I don't see why, at least not for the battle axe. Historical one handed battle axes are surprisingly light. Actually this shouldn't be surprising since you don't actually need that much force to take a person out of action and slow unwieldy weapons are not good weapons.

[Zenbane]

Battle Axes are typically 2-handed; and 1-handed versions are still quite large. No one is saying that you can't Deflect with them, the idea is that a smaller version allows for more Deflection than the larger version. And that makes sense. Remember, Deflection <> Block/Parry

Edited November 18, 2015 by Zenbane

[JerekKruger]

Battle Axes are typically 2-handed; and 1-handed versions are still quite large. No one is saying that you can't Deflect with them, the idea is that a smaller version allows for more Deflection than the larger version. And that makes sense. Remember, Deflection <> Block/Parry

 

They really weren't that large. Don't be fooled by what fantasy art depicts, if you go to a museum and look at axe heads used in war then two things will strike you: the heads are surprisingly small and the blades are really thin. Even the big blades of dane axes aren't that heavy because, once again, they're really think.

 

As for your latter point, sure, a smaller lighter version of a weapon might be easier to defend with, but the hatchet isn't the only small light weapon and arguably it's not the most naturally defensive one present in the game. There's a reason swords were the secondary weapon of choice for most of history and that reason wasn't because of their great killing power: it was because they were very flexible and, in trained hands, quite useful for defence.

[Zenbane]

Yes we already covered small swords and daggers vs the Deflection logic of a Hatchet. There are clear differences in them that we really don't need to go over again. Stop taking us backwards, Jerek! lol

 

I get it, some of you don't think that Hatchets should Deflect. And others think that whatever logic is applied to giving Hatchets a Deflection bonus can be applied to anything (like a Battle Axe) ... hooray for slippery slope logic.

 

My bad for seeming to restart the debate. I intended that one reply with a fun joke about fireball headed stealth mode. You hatchet haters can have the last word!

 

 

[JerekKruger]

No, I've yet to see an argument put forward in this thread for why hatchets should have a bonus to deflection that is convincing. I am in no way in favour of adding a deflection bonus to battle axes, I was using the to explain why I think that argument is flawed. Nor do I think hatchets cannot be used defensively, I just don't believe they are inherently more defensive than all other weapons. Finally I don't hate hatchets at all, I just think they'd make more sense with a different defining attribute.