Are per encounter spells needed? And are they balanced?

[gkathellar]

I mean, really, the solution to all of these balance arguments is to just do PoE2 as an Etrian Odyssey ga-

 

/shot

[Alexander1]

It sounds like the general consensus is that per-encounter spells are fine -- the spells themselves just need to be balanced.

 

I admit I was somewhat excited about the power of PoE's spells, but I also found them to be too much of a carbon-copy of Baldur's Gate II's spells.  "So-and-so's missiles" and "somebody else's wall spell" are almost taken straight out of Dungeons and Dragons which is a system that turns magic-users into glass cannons. 

 

Personally, I'd rather see magicians made more into tactical characters with more balance and utility than the "glass cannon" stereotype (that is, the stereotype that wizards are high-damage nukers that are really fragile and can't protect themselves).  PoE is slowly moving away from his old stereotype, but the spells are still powerful enough that they might make the class unbalanced. 

 

That said, I'm sure a lot of players enjoy the powerful spells and would be sad to see them go.  I'm honestly not sure what could be done about this.

[hilfazer]

 

I think only Damage and healing Spells need level scaling. They should scale more or less like Ranger's pet or Spriritshift Damage, which means about +20% every 3 levels.

This may require them to start at a slightly lower basis.

 

 

Winter Wind and Blizzard already do.

[MadDemiurg]

As for scaling I feel like CC spells could also use some scaling in terms of duration and aoe if the per encounter conversion was removed, as they have significantly less of both compared to the higher level stuff.

 

Honestly, there are multiple ways you could go about that. And then, there's also the "fun" factor, which might be more important than the "balance" factor actually. It's definitely more fun to have some abilities in each combat than to autoattack in 80% of combats and then go nova in the last one. (Not discussing rest system/supplies being broken here)

 

It's true that per encounter spells make stuff like per encounter knockdowns a bit redundant, but the issue is that the knockdowns do not scale, while spells do. I would expect a paladin get a few more uses of FoD and a fighter to get a few more uses of knockdown through leveling at the very least. I think it's a bad design to have abilities that become bad/useless as the game progresses.

 

Also, as I've already stated I don't like the design of non caster PoE classes at all (apart from maybe monk which could still use some work). So rather than making casters more dull I'd make other classes more fun. This is too late to change in PoE 1 in all honesty, so maybe that's something that would be possible with PoE 2.

Edited September 28, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Elric Galad]

Setting per encounter spells to be per rest spells still sounds like the dark side of class balance.

 

It's shorter.

It's easier.

 

It would do the job (at least for me).

It will save a lot of time to prepare cookies.

 

It is certainly not the funniest, however.

 

But I see it as the only likely to happen, from dev amount of work perspective.

 

I don't hope for something else. I can even do it myself with IE mods.
Maybe I'm getting old.

 

Or just nostalgic about BG casters.

Which also means I'm getting old.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Elric Galad

[KDubya]

After all the discussion I don't see any real solution. Especially at this point in the game. You can't un-ring the bell. Back in Beta maybe the whole system could have been changed but you can't take away a big shiny like per encounter spells which would not solve the problem any way.

 

Take away per encounter:

1.) Forces you to either not use spells and use auto attacks or long lasting blights - Not Fun. Can still be quite effective but fails on the Fun scale.

 

2.) You use spells the same you just need to rest more - Backtracking to Inns again is not Fun. Doesn't change the power out put at all, in fact with more frequent resting you can let loose with the big guns more often.

 

4.) Change the number or rate at which you gain per encounter spells - Lots of work for no real change. If it stops you from casting it becomes un-Fun, if it forces more rests it is un-Fun.

 

3.) Leave per encounter as is - it is fun to use spells, being forced to rest more or go back to Inns is not fun. Best choice.

 

 

Option: Rebalance individual spells

 

1.) Lots of work to look at every spell and also all the synergy effects of multiple spells and abilities acting together. Making the sum of the parts greater then their individual sums is the great appeal of a party based game. Maybe someone can start an individual thread to discuss any specific offending spells.

 

2.) Leave spells alone as they currently are, fix any broken or obvious bugs. - Best choice.

 

 

Option - Drop all Vancian Casters with their per day spells and go to a focus based system to power everything.

 

1.) Dream for PoE2. Might be difficult since it is now expected to be the same for PoE2. The time to make a big sweeping change like this would have been in the Beta. Maybe it is too bold or innovative to throw away the crutches of following past games.

 

 

Bottom line nothing is going to change and at this point I don't think it'd be a good idea to change anything anyway. You just can't balance a quadratic class, other than to make them required like BG2 did with mages being needed to fight mages.

Edited September 29, 2015 by KDubya

[Sannom]

After all the discussion I don't see any real solution. Especially at this point in the game. You can't un-ring the bell. Back in Beta maybe the whole system could have been changed but you can't take away a big shiny like per encounter spells which would not solve the problem any way.

Apparently you shouldn't underestimate a developer's willingness to take the player's shiny things away. In case Something Awful acts up again, here is the quote :

 

 

In the relatively near future, the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell. A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses. Wizards do not need to have this spell in their currently equipped grimoire to take advantage of it.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Sannom

[FlintlockJazz]

 

After all the discussion I don't see any real solution. Especially at this point in the game. You can't un-ring the bell. Back in Beta maybe the whole system could have been changed but you can't take away a big shiny like per encounter spells which would not solve the problem any way.

Apparently you shouldn't underestimate a developer's willingness to take the player's shiny things away. In case Something Awful acts up again, here is the quote :

 

 

In the relatively near future, the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell. A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses. Wizards do not need to have this spell in their currently equipped grimoire to take advantage of it.

 

Interesting, does this mean the number of spells per rest will go up for lower level spells once you get to level 9 then?  And what about the Druids and Priests: they don't need a grimoire anyway so it won't be as big a deal for them. 

[Sannom]

Interesting, does this mean the number of spells per rest will go up for lower level spells once you get to level 9 then?

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about the number of casts for one spell-level or the number of spells you have access to for any given level?

 

And what about the Druids and Priests: they don't need a grimoire anyway so it won't be as big a deal for them.

Same thing for them, they will be able to cast one specific spell once per encounter on top of their regular castings.

[Njall]

 

After all the discussion I don't see any real solution. Especially at this point in the game. You can't un-ring the bell. Back in Beta maybe the whole system could have been changed but you can't take away a big shiny like per encounter spells which would not solve the problem any way.

Apparently you shouldn't underestimate a developer's willingness to take the player's shiny things away. In case Something Awful acts up again, here is the quote :

 

 

In the relatively near future, the current switchover of low level spells to per encounter is going to be changed. Instead, the "Vancian" casters will pick a spell of that level or lower as a mastered spell. A mastered spell can be cast 1/Encounter in addition to all other uses. Wizards do not need to have this spell in their currently equipped grimoire to take advantage of it.

 

...ok, this is starting to feel ridiculous. I'm all for balance, but the game is starting to feel like an extended beta at this point. 

Worse yet, rather then bringing the worst options up to par, they nerf the more exciting stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I think per encounter spells were a bit (or way )over the top, in terms of balance ( yeah, I know you can just rest before each encounter and make encounter and per-rest powers roughly equivalent, but regardless, it's pretty clear that the devs intended for rests to be fairly rare and thus act as a balancing mechanism... whether they succedeed in that regard is open to debate, but the intent was pretty clear ), but still, the game's been out for like 6 months, a major patch just introduced a bunch of new features and the game is still rife with bugs atm...

How about focusing on making the classes that lag behind better instead of the MVPs (which people spent time and effort leveling up ) less fun?

Edited September 29, 2015 by Njall

[FlintlockJazz]

 

Interesting, does this mean the number of spells per rest will go up for lower level spells once you get to level 9 then?

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about the number of casts for one spell-level or the number of spells you have access to for any given level?

 

 

I mean will the number of spells per level per rest go up for the lower level spells or will they be limited to the maximum of four plus talents per level still. 

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

Interesting, does this mean the number of spells per rest will go up for lower level spells once you get to level 9 then?

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about the number of casts for one spell-level or the number of spells you have access to for any given level?

 

 

I mean will the number of spells per level per rest go up for the lower level spells or will they be limited to the maximum of four plus talents per level still.

i.e. will it go from 4/rest at level 8 to 3/rest + 1/encounter at level 9, or 4/rest + 1/encounter?

 

I read it as the latter.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

 

Interesting, does this mean the number of spells per rest will go up for lower level spells once you get to level 9 then?

I don't understand your question. Are you talking about the number of casts for one spell-level or the number of spells you have access to for any given level?

 

 

I mean will the number of spells per level per rest go up for the lower level spells or will they be limited to the maximum of four plus talents per level still.

i.e. will it go from 4/rest at level 8 to 3/rest + 1/encounter at level 9, or 4/rest + 1/encounter?

 

I read it as the latter.

 

I meant is there any sign that the per rest spells will increase in number now that they are no longer per rest?  Currently all spell levels seem to max out at four spells per rest/encounter, with the lower levels switching to per encounter instead of increasing in number.  Now that they are no longer going to switch to per encounter I sure hope they will increase in number beyond four per level now.