Starting stats for a wizard (normal/hard, default companions)

[Bawtzki]

Hi

 

I'm starting a new playthrough and have decided to give wizard a try this time. I will most likely be focusing on melee spells but I'm having trouble deciding on the starting stats. Ideally I'd like to have a character that can use one of its higher stats for the most common convo checks while still being pretty solid in combat.

 

What I have so far (Human Aedyr)

 

16 Might

8   Constitution

16 Dexterity

8   Perception

14 Intelligence

16 Resolve (I think some of the early resolve checks are at 16, but I'm not sure. If not I could drop some points and put them into int instead)

 

Thoughts? And yeah I know that you can finish normal/hard with stats all over but I'd still like to build a decent character .

 

Thanks in advance for answers.

 

[Bawtzki]

I can't seem to edit my post, maybe because I don't have enough approved messages yet. In any case, I've been doing some reading while waiting for my post approval and it seems like perception became very important with the new expansion, especially for casters since you cast less frequently than you swing your swords which makes those misses hurt even more.

 

My revised stats:

 

15 might

8 constitution

15 dexterity

16 perception

16 intelligence

9 resolve

[Nobear]

Would using Aloth as your wizard be out of the question for you? Is it a matter of personal attachment to your main? I ask because which character is your main generally makes little to no difference unless you're soloing. The biggest exceptions to this are if you were to pick a paladin or priest as your main, since they each have an ability that scales as your dialogue choices align with the preferred dispositions of your chosen order or deity. A paladin tank, moreover, lends itself particularly well to having good dialogue choices while also being built well for combat. Between a paladin PC + Aloth, and a wizard PC + Pallegina, the first would have a significant advantage.

 

If you are set on making your wizard your PC, you are right that you will have to decide whether combat or dialogue are more important to you. For combat, if you were playing a ranged wizard I'd say you could safely dump Res, and don't forget Per. Mig/Dex/Int/Per are all pretty important for a wizard. As a melee perhaps leave it at 10. That said, keep two things in mind:

 

1) As a class, you have access to things like Arcane Veil and Spirit Shield to make up for low Deflection and Concentration, respectively.

 

2) There would be no dialogue difference between having 10 Res and anything lower, as checks (at least in the base game) range from 11-19. As I've posted elsewhere, I'd like to know if the expansion has added any new checks above 19.

 

For soloing, I'd be leary of dumping Res. In a party, however, if you are using a reach weapon (like those conjured by spells), I have seen other players make a case for dumping Res, based on the above. YMMV of course.

 

Edit: The player I was thinking of made the case for dumped Res in this post. He was, to be fair, talking about a ranged wizard and not a melee one. The most sensible thing (combat-wise) for a melee wizard in a party might be to have 10 Res and put those points into Per. You can always respec at any inn now in 2.0, and fine-tune to taste.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Nobear

[globalCooldown]

Question: for a melee wizard, why are you dumping CON? Do you intend to just buff yourself out with gear and spells at the start of combat? Otherwise, you're going to be incredibly squishy for a frontline combatant.

Related question: are you prioritizing DEX for action speed? It's useful to get spells off a little more quickly, but heavier armors could basically negate that action speed gain.

 

I think RES is the most commonly used stat for dialogue checks, but don't quote me on that.

 

(I've personally never rolled my main as a Wizard; I'm genuinely curious about your stat array decisions. If I help you think more about what you want to build towards, hey, why not?)

[Cantousent]

I can't seem to edit my post, maybe because I don't have enough approved messages yet.

That's right, Bawtzki, but the good news is that you've now made enough approved posts that you're no longer moderated. :D

[Bawtzki]

 

I can't seem to edit my post, maybe because I don't have enough approved messages yet.

That's right, Bawtzki, but the good news is that you've now made enough approved posts that you're no longer moderated. :D

 

 

Good news indeed!

 

 

Would using Aloth as your wizard be out of the question for you? Is it a matter of personal attachment to your main? I ask because which character is your main generally makes little to no difference unless you're soloing. The biggest exceptions to this are if you were to pick a paladin or priest as your main, since they each have an ability that scales as your dialogue choices align with the preferred dispositions of your chosen order or deity. A paladin tank, moreover, lends itself particularly well to having good dialogue choices while also being built well for combat. Between a paladin PC + Aloth, and a wizard PC + Pallegina, the first would have a significant advantage.

 

If you are set on making your wizard your PC, you are right that you will have to decide whether combat or dialogue are more important to you. For combat, if you were playing a ranged wizard I'd say you could safely dump Res, and don't forget Per. Mig/Dex/Int/Per are all pretty important for a wizard. As a melee perhaps leave it at 10. That said, keep two things in mind:

 

1) As a class, you have access to things like Arcane Veil and Spirit Shield to make up for low Deflection and Concentration, respectively.

 

2) There would be no dialogue difference between having 10 Res and anything lower, as checks (at least in the base game) range from 11-19. As I've posted elsewhere, I'd like to know if the expansion has added any new checks above 19.

 

For soloing, I'd be leary of dumping Res. In a party, however, if you are using a reach weapon (like those conjured by spells), I have seen other players make a case for dumping Res, based on the above. YMMV of course.

 

Edit: The player I was thinking of made the case for dumped Res in this post. He was, to be fair, talking about a ranged wizard and not a melee one. The most sensible thing (combat-wise) for a melee wizard in a party might be to have 10 Res and put those points into Per. You can always respec at any inn now in 2.0, and fine-tune to taste.

 

 

Thanks for the post, lots of useful info, same goes for the link you've provided.

 

Re my class choice - it's mostly because of roleplaying but my last attempt at the game (shortly after release, got to lvl 11, never finished) also showed that my character (barb at the time) was significantly better at dispatching enemies than the companions I could recruit. So I figured I might as well build my character to be more offensive because I don't like the idea of recruiting adventurers and prefer to stick with the companions that have some backstory attached. Paladin would be my next pick though, preciselly for the reasons you've outlined.

 

 

Question: for a melee wizard, why are you dumping CON? Do you intend to just buff yourself out with gear and spells at the start of combat? Otherwise, you're going to be incredibly squishy for a frontline combatant.

Related question: are you prioritizing DEX for action speed? It's useful to get spells off a little more quickly, but heavier armors could basically negate that action speed gain.

 

I think RES is the most commonly used stat for dialogue checks, but don't quote me on that.

 

(I've personally never rolled my main as a Wizard; I'm genuinely curious about your stat array decisions. If I help you think more about what you want to build towards, hey, why not?)

 

I don't know if 8 is exactly dumping. Wizards start with less health by default so it didn't make sense to me to put points there, especially since you get some good defensive self buffs.

 

Dex is high for cast speed, correct. My plan was to use light armor and rely on buffs to survive the fights. I don't know how viable heavy armor is on a melee mage since you still need to get those spells off before you can join the combat and if it takes too long then the fights will be over before you get any good swings in.

 

Now that I've got new information I'm thinking of abandoning the idea of melee mage and just going with the stat distribution from the link that Nobear provided. Maybe with less severe stat dumps though .

[Nobear]

I can't seem to edit my post, maybe because I don't have enough approved messages yet. In any case, I've been doing some reading while waiting for my post approval and it seems like perception became very important with the new expansion, especially for casters since you cast less frequently than you swing your swords which makes those misses hurt even more.

 

My revised stats:

 

15 might

8 constitution

15 dexterity

16 perception

16 intelligence

9 resolve

 

Looks about as good as any spread to me.

 

Question: for a melee wizard, why are you dumping CON? Do you intend to just buff yourself out with gear and spells at the start of combat? Otherwise, you're going to be incredibly squishy for a frontline combatant.

Related question: are you prioritizing DEX for action speed? It's useful to get spells off a little more quickly, but heavier armors could basically negate that action speed gain.

 

I think RES is the most commonly used stat for dialogue checks, but don't quote me on that.

 

(I've personally never rolled my main as a Wizard; I'm genuinely curious about your stat array decisions. If I help you think more about what you want to build towards, hey, why not?)

 

8 is not dumping. Dumping means making it as low as possible, which would be 3. I don't think 8 would be a problem if he's playing in a party with a reach weapon. With an item he can get to 9 early on, and eventually to 11 (before any temporary buffs). And yes, those buff spells are basically the bread and butter for a melee wizard. Infuse with Vital Essence alone will take his endurance up to basically the levels of a pure tank with high Con.

 

It's not 100% clear to me whether you think prioritizing Dex is a good or bad idea. I think it's one of the four important stats for a Wizard post-2.0. Also, I don't see what choice of armor has to do with Dex. Armor extends recovery only. Dex increases Action Speed, which affects all actions. Whether he is wearing enchanted clothes or plate armor, Dex will make everything faster by the same %. Its utility remains the same. Also, Wizards have a spell to speed themselves up even more (Deleterious Alacrity of Motion) that becomes Per Encounter at level 13. Even in plate, with a decent Dex score and that spell, a Wizard's spell casting speed as well as his DPS with conjured weapons will be high.

 

You are right that Res is often considered the most important stat for dialogue checks. That's why I threw out the idea of having a paladin tank main and using Aloth for his Wizard, but I think the OP has a personal preference for his Wizard to be his PC. In any case, in the grand scheme of things, those dialogue checks make relatively little difference compared to certain other games. Yes, he would be missing out on maximizing certain quest rewards for example, but it's not like it will cripple his game.

[Nobear]

I don't know if 8 is exactly dumping. Wizards start with less health by default so it didn't make sense to me to put points there, especially since you get some good defensive self buffs.

 

Dex is high for cast speed, correct. My plan was to use light armor and rely on buffs to survive the fights. I don't know how viable heavy armor is on a melee mage since you still need to get those spells off before you can join the combat and if it takes too long then the fights will be over before you get any good swings in.

 

Now that I've got new information I'm thinking of abandoning the idea of melee mage and just going with the stat distribution from the link that Nobear provided. Maybe with less severe stat dumps though .

 

lol we had the same thinking about the 8 Con + defensive buffs.

 

TBH I did beat the game on PoTD with companions, but it was pre-2.0 and my wizard was Aloth as a ranged Minor Blights build. Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and Minor Blights both become Per Encounter at level 13, so this looks like an even more attractive build now.

 

That said, I definitely wouldn't want to discourage your own ideas and preferences. This game allows for a wide range of builds to be viable. While experienced players will generally agree that ranged wizards have the edge over melee ones in terms of pure performance, melee wizards are more than viable and can be very fun. If you find the concept attractive, feel free to go for it!

[lameover]

Say "no!" to medium attribs.

You either make it 17+ or just leave it 10.

I know that with 2.0 minmaxing is almost gone, but it doesn't mean you can't make viable(not mediocre!) build.

Those 8 const and 9 resolve - why? It's just silly.

 

Minmax build.

Wood Elf for +5 ranged accuracy. Yep, almost all our spells is "ranged".

18

10

10

18

19 (Old Vaila bonus)

3

 

Average build

Wood Elf

17

10

10

12

19

10

See? 12 PER doesn't matter much. RES? Why do you need RES at all? Are you going to join your tank in first line? No? Then, you don't need RES at all. Stick with Min-Max build and be sure your Slicken spell will not miss some huge Lurkers and Ogres.

Edited September 6, 2015 by lameover

[Nobear]

Say "no!" to medium attribs.

You either make it 17+ or just leave it 10.

I know that with 2.0 minmaxing is almost gone, but it doesn't mean you can't make viable(not mediocre!) build.

Those 8 const and 9 resolve - why? It's just silly.

 

Minmax build.

Wood Elf for +5 ranged accuracy. Yep, almost all our spells is "ranged".

18

10

10

18

19 (Old Vaila bonus)

3

 

Average build

Wood Elf

17

10

10

12

19

10

See? 12 PER doesn't matter much. RES? Why do you need RES at all? Are you going to join your tank in first line? No? Then, you don't need RES at all. Stick with Min-Max build and be sure your Slicken spell will not miss some huge Lurkers and Ogres.

 

You pulled a straw man there, comparing your ideal "minmax" build with another build you made up, that nobody is arguing for. His build had 16 Per, but instead you're comparing your ideal build to one with 12 Per. Definitely not the same comparison.

 

Why is 8 Con any sillier than 10 Con, especially considering you can raise that to 9 or even 11 with an item, before any temporary buffs?

 

Your ideal build, as you say, is for a ranged Wizard, which is not what the OP was talking about. If you read, he was originally thinking of a melee Wizard, and that's what his spread was for. Also, if you read, he is planning to play Normal/Hard. Melee Wizards are viable even in PoTD. This thread isn't about whether ranged or melee Wizards are better, it's about the OP getting ideas for good builds about either, and making his choice based on his personal preferences, not necessarily which is most OP.

 

In the end, there are experienced players as adamant about not min-maxing as you are about min-maxing. I think much of these personal preferences really boil down to the fact a lot of us PoE players are a bit OCD to one degree or another, and we get an emotional attachment to one school of thought vs another. Some players, for instance, justify their stat spreads by factors as unimportant to gameplay as that they like "balancing out the numbers." It's ok to have these quirks, I have some of my own, just realize it's largely personal preference and not that important in the end when you are just talking about a few points here or there. Keep in mind that the game is beatable by an average-skilled player on a completionist PoTD run with all companion characters, whose stats are far from optimal.

[lameover]

Oops. Didn't noticed "melee"

My fault.

 

About min-maxing - i just don't like dialogues where

1.(Resolve 17) Requirements not met

2.(Perception 14) Requirements not met

3.(Intelligence 18) Requirements not met.

This 3 attribs are not only combat related, but dialogue related too.

It's just my wish to have one or two of this attribs to be maxed.

Edited September 6, 2015 by lameover

[Nobear]

Oops. Didn't noticed "melee"

My fault.

 

Hey it's all good man, no worries. I'm sorry if I came across like I was attacking you btw, I basically just wanted to emphasize the diversity of builds and ideas that are viable in this game, especially below PoTD.

 

I do think your build makes a lot of sense for a ranged Wizard though. Dex is a bit low, but thankfully the Wizard has Deleterious Alacrity of Motion to make up for it, which he can cast Per Encounter at level 13 now  .

[Nobear]

About min-maxing - i just don't like dialogues where

1.(Resolve 17) Requirements not met

2.(Perception 14) Requirements not met

3.(Intelligence 18) Requirements not met.

This 3 attribs are not only combat related, but dialogue related too.

It's just my wish to have one or two of this attribs to be maxed.

 

Now that is quite a fair point. However, between an item, food, an inn resting bonus, and a prostitute, you can boost a stat pretty high, maybe around +8 depending on the stat we're talking about.

 

Ideally, yes, I'm with you that I prefer to pass checks without having to stack every card in the deck in my favor. But if we're talking about a melee Wizard main, it seems some compromise will have to be made either in combat or in dialogue.

[lameover]

Now that is quite a fair point. However, between an item, food, an inn resting bonus, and a prostitute, you can boost a stat pretty high, maybe around +8 depending on the stat we're talking about.

 

Ideally, yes, I'm with you that I prefer to pass checks without having to stack every card in the deck in my favor. But if we're talking about a melee Wizard main, it seems some compromise will have to be made either in combat or in dialogue.

"A serious conversation is coming. I'd better get some rest with a prostitute, then drink some booze and eat some delicious food before the conversation."

 

Even melee wizard need high INT, so, conversation problem partially solved.

[Bawtzki]

Oops. Didn't noticed "melee"

My fault.

 

About min-maxing - i just don't like dialogues where

1.(Resolve 17) Requirements not met

2.(Perception 14) Requirements not met

3.(Intelligence 18) Requirements not met.

This 3 attribs are not only combat related, but dialogue related too.

It's just my wish to have one or two of this attribs to be maxed.

 

This is definitely true, but my line of thinking was similar to Nobear's - since most of the stats are relatively close to convo checks I could bridge the gap with items and buffs when needed.

 

However, I then went and checked Aloth's stats and realised that my wizard would not be that much better with an even spread in stats so now I'm really thinking of dumping res and con and max out the rest, as far as it goes anyway.

 

I am curious about your reason for low dex though, a lot of people who post about Wizards seem to favor this stat - what's the logic behind it?

[lameover]

I am curious about your reason for low dex though, a lot of people who post about Wizards seem to favor this stat - what's the logic behind it?

High DEX allows you to spam spells faster. If you notice this "+24% faster spellcasting" - then you could set PER to 10 and max DEX instead.

[pi2repsion]

2) There would be no dialogue difference between having 10 Res and anything lower, as checks (at least in the base game) range from 11-19. As I've posted elsewhere, I'd like to know if the expansion has added any new checks above 19.

I noticed a Might 20 check in one conversation branch with the Alpine Dragon. There might be others.

[Nobear]

However, I then went and checked Aloth's stats and realised that my wizard would not be that much better with an even spread in stats so now I'm really thinking of dumping res and con and max out the rest, as far as it goes anyway.

 

I am curious about your reason for low dex though, a lot of people who post about Wizards seem to favor this stat - what's the logic behind it?

 

Feel free to try dumping both Res and Con. You can always respec back if you find yourself dying too often. Personally, I'd be inclined to dump Res before Con. Dumping both might be ok if you decide to play a ranged Wizard in a party on Normal/Hard. For a melee, even if you're using a reach weapon and trying to attack over your tank's head, I don't think I'd dump Con, but for a ranged it might be ok. As I say, feel free to try it out, knowing you can always adjust to taste later.

 

IDK what other peoples' rationale about low Dex might be, but the one I can think of is that you might find yourself casting/attacking "fast enough" with average Dex and Deleterious Alacrity of Motion, which becomes Per Encounter at level 13. I think I'd still want my Dex to be higher than 10, but then I don't have quite the same min-max mentality that certain other players do. I don't believe that min-maxing is strictly and always the most optimal, but hey... different strokes for different folks.

 

 

2) There would be no dialogue difference between having 10 Res and anything lower, as checks (at least in the base game) range from 11-19. As I've posted elsewhere, I'd like to know if the expansion has added any new checks above 19.

I noticed a Might 20 check in one conversation branch with the Alpine Dragon. There might be others.

 

 

Thanks, good to know.

[Ymarsakar]

I turned off the info where they tell me I don't meet a requirement. Very distracting and annoying, immersion wise. Obsidian really loves their reputation points Up and Down, but I don't really consider that good role playing dynamics, which is why they gave us the option of turning that stuff off or making it invisible.

 

The wizard's melee spells do so much damage you don't even need might above 10. Dex at 14, 15, 16 sounds good. Con... needs to be 10-11 at least. Resolve needs to be enough where if you cast spirit spell level 1, you don't get interrupted so often. At times you'll need to cast a spell, but people are shooting you. It's not that hard on Hard difficulty, but on Path of the Damned, half of my party gets downed so I need the other half to be MVPs in full plate.

 

Per is really important for dps and cc aoe wizards, less so if you're just going with the self buff dps spells. The self buff spells benefit a lot more from INT.

 

It's almost like they made Aloth's stats to be for a muscle wizard. Anyone see the similarity?

 

If the Japanese had used their aesthetics on Aloth, his gender would be female pale elf, with Aloth's second X being the other one.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Ymarsakar