Level Cap or Not

[Volourn]

It shouldn't matter. The cap in KOTOR1 was tooa rtifical, and reeks of fakeness. it adds nothing to the game at all.

[evil.E]

removing the level cap is great for games that are open ended and are continuable after the storyline is finished. but with the linear and finite nature of KOTOR I don't beleive that anyone could attain more than a LVL 30 before the end of the game even if they sat in tattoine and killed desert wraids* all day long.

[agris]

The more options, the more fun. Everyone loves options. Level 40 instead of 20 is twice as many times I get to say "neat" to myself and click a few buttons - increasing my characters power.

 

They just need to design some content that makes a challenge for a level whatever, similar to some of the player created mods for bg2. There is some honestly hard s***, and it's a lot of fun. Sure a level 40 bulldozed Abigazail (whatever) but with Gaider's mod, the encounter is still hard. Ditto with improved Acension et al.

 

The bigger the numbers, the bigger the fun. MMorpgs taught us this.

[Volourn]

Argh. Don't use MMORPGS to back me up. i hate 'em. :angry:

[Shdy314]

Shady; Nonsense. How is it cheating if ther eis no level limit? Haha. See, i tricked you. i said chearters and lamers prefer level caps as they can cheat to max level (something they'd never be able to do in a non level cap game hence lessen the motivations to cheat for levels). See, a capless game limits the force a cheater can use to "cheat to win' the game.

 

I win here. You lose here.

 

On top of that, as far as balance goes, if Obsidianis half as good as we think they are, they should be able to handle capless games.

 

Soemthing apparantly they nor BIo can handle at all. Too bad too.

Wow none of that made any sense. I didn't say it was cheating to not have a level cap just that there is no point. It breaks the game and you might as well be cheating since you're basically unkillable.

 

All games have a level cap. Find one game that doesn't. So what anyone is asking when someone asks for NO level cap is to get to like 99th level. This is fine if you design your combat system and characters to go up 99 levels but D20 doesn't. And D20 is the influence for KOTOR. So asking for no level cap unbalances the very system of the game. Oh I see if we just let them get to level 99 no one will cheat for levels? This is comepletely inaccurate. (I don't care if people cheat in an SP game but since you brought this up) People will cheat to get the max level from the beginning. People that want to cheat will cheat no matter how easy you make the game. A capless game doesn't limit anything but the ability of the developers to create a challenging game.

 

Look at FF. Almost everyone gets to level 99 but the end boss is normally only a challenge up to like level 60-70. So you kill them in one or two hits. Lotsa fun. So then Square starts adding super difficult boss monsters for the people that max out their character and the end bosses are a big joke. It's dumb and detracts from the game. By knowing that people will almost certainly reach the level cap and what level that is developers can make the end boss the hardest fight like it should be. They just need to scale it better so you don't hit the level cap too fast.

No one wins on an internet message board.

 

Every Black Isle game has had a level cap. All games have level caps.

 

You JUST said you thought they could handle a capless game. Make up your mind.

[Shdy314]

Argh. Don't use MMORPGS to back me up. i hate 'em. :angry:

Level caps aren't fake. They are a balancing issue. This is first and foremost a game. Not a simulated SW reality.

 

And I quoted the wrong post. Great. But hey I agree MMORPGs do suck. Mainly because ones like everquest think oh people love leveling let's make the level cap 2 billion and one! Why not just make each level more worthwhile? which is what KOTOR does. And who makes them think that a good RPG means leveling a thousand times? People like you.

 

Vote "NO" on raise levelcap proposition 223.

[Volourn]

That was a good post 'til the end. I think they can handle a capless game. How is that not making up my mind? They should prove it though. I want them to try to prove me wrong.

 

You don't need a cap. Want evidence? Let's take KOTOR1. During the course of the game, you probably got enough xp to reach between the levels of 18-22 depending on what you did. Would it have really changed ANYTHING at all in the game itself if there was no level cap? i think not. Like I said it's artifical.

 

Heck, let's take another BIO game. A game you say you reached the cap; but if you played it fairly you did not. That being HOTU. that game has a "cap" of level 40; you start it a level 15. By every single account people reache dbetween levels 24-28. See, nowhere enar the ARTIFICAL cap. Therefore, it was NOT needed.

 

Same thing with both Fallouts espicially FO2. Or PST which technically had a cap of level 99; but realistically had none. XP/level caps add nothing to a game. What does is the dveloper making the enemies balanced for your level.

 

"It breaks the game and you might as well be cheating since you're basically unkillable."

 

Though; both game shave technical level caps; neither in HOTU or TOB was the player "unkillable". Why? Because the encounters were presumably balanced for the proepr levels. Period. And, when theyw eren't, it was BIo's fault for not balancing them proeprly.

 

Once again, xp/level caps are simply unneeded. They add NOTHING to a game and therefore are a waste.

 

edit: HuH/ My point sis leveling doesnt really make a role-playing game at all so a cap isn't needed. as long as the game is balanced for my character I'm all happy. It's you who seems to have a problem with level caps not existing. XP caps, or not is irrleavnt on how good a game is. I just think caps are useless as they add nothing. theys urely don't improve role-playing.

[Shdy314]

Boy I am glad you're not a devloper. You do get that having level 99 as a cap is still a cap right? All games have caps. Why is it such a big deal to you if that cap is 20? The game is balanced for level 20. Give it up. It will never be put in the game. This game will have a cap. And it will not be 99.

[Volourn]

Oh well.

 

So, you think xp caps IMPROVE role-playing? How so, exactly?

 

Who says I want level 99 as a cap?

 

Are ya spekaing jeeberish again?

 

I think the whole idea of caps is unimportnat because theys imply ADD nothing to the game. At all.

[Tyrell]

Level cap =30. Thats with the pretige classes.

[Shdy314]

Oh well.

 

So, you think xp caps IMPROVE role-playing? How so, exactly?

 

Who says I want level 99 as a cap?

 

Are ya spekaing jeeberish again?

 

I think the whole idea of caps is unimportnat because theys imply ADD nothing to the game. At all.

They add balance. And the caps add to roleplaying when the levels more closely corroborate to your character. What did it mean to be level 99 in FF? Nothing. But being level 20 or beyond in KOTOR means you are epic. A legendary figure of incredible power. They should add titles for each level too. Padawan for 1-5. Knight for 6-12 etc. That'd be really kewl.

 

What DO you want as a cap if not 99? 199? How is it any different from a cap of 20. It's just a bigger number. I'm surprised you hate MMORPGs. They'd be perfect for you and your desire to level incessantly.

[kefka]

I think the whole idea of caps is unimportnat because theys imply ADD nothing to the game. At all.

It's easier for developers to balance a game if they have a good idea of what level the player might be. Remove the cap and they don't have a clue.

[Volourn]

Shady:

 

1. They don't add balance. Developers add balance by crafting monsters (and other type of oppostion) to challenge the PC at the appropriate level. This is true whetehr it's a level 1 PC, level 20 PC, or level 40 PC.

 

2. I agree, making it more dififcult to gain levels makes them more importaat but was that really the case in KOTOR? Afterall, you gained a whooping 20 levels in 30-60 hours. LMAO

 

3. There should be no artifical xp cap. period. No number will do. They could make the cap 5, 10, 20, 100, 2 million; i don't care as long as there is NO chance of me artifically reaching a 'dead end". That is alme.

 

4. ERROR! ERROR! ERROR! ASSuming ALERT! ASSuming ALERT!

 

That's exactly why I hate MMORPGS with apassion. They're all about leveling; not about roel-playing. to me, the numbe rof levels one gets has NOTHINg to do with the 'art" of role-playing.

 

This is why my favorite NWN PW the max level is 13. there are plans for the cap to be extended; but I coulldn't care less. You ask why? Simple. It has the ebst role-playing on any PW I've played.

 

In pnp, I have only played an 'epic" camapign of level 20+ characters once and it most definitely was one of my least faves.

 

My players would laugh to ehar about youa ccusing me of ebing in love with levlling. LOL I'm accused of being far too stingy with xp. LOLOLOLOLOLOLLIPOP I've been called the Destroyer of XP. Hahaha.

 

My whole point is that xp caps are for the weakminded. you should not need them to balance the game or to role-play. they are irrelevant one way or the other.

 

Kefak: Good point. best point in favour of caps. hwoever, as i've argued, if the devs are as food as we claim they are they shouldn't need an xp cap to balance the game.

 

Conclsuoon: Xp caps should either be abolished or be high enough 9whetehr the cap is 10, 20, or 50 doens't matter0 that the player should never ever worry about reaching it. Ever. if the player does fairly withotu cheating; then the dev has failed . Period.

[Opus131]

2. I agree, making it more dififcult to gain levels makes them more importaat but was that really the case in KOTOR? Afterall, you gained a whooping 20 levels in 30-60 hours. LMAO

In BG, i gained a whooping 7 levels in about 100 hours of gameplay, and yes, leveling did feel important in that game.

[Volourn]

Yes, gaining levels in BG was important but it had nothing to do with the cap; but had everything to do with the fact you actually had to 'earn' the levels and they weren't gift wrapped.

 

It would have been better if there was no level limit in BG, you played for 100 hours, and gained 7-8 levels. That would be much more fulfilling. See, once again, the xp cap is irrelavant.

[Opus131]

Though; both game shave technical level caps; neither in HOTU or TOB was the player "unkillable". Why? Because the encounters were presumably balanced for the proepr levels. Period.

Maybe, but what level of power were those monsters at ?!?

 

Are you trying to imply that a level 30 Jedi would be just fine as long as he had enought challenges ?!?

 

Wouldn't the whole Star Wars atmosphere collapse after you realize you just dispached a group of Dark Jedi subordinates each twice more powerful then Yoda himself ?!?

 

The only safe way to do this is to have each level mean less, but can the D20 system be temperd with THAT much ?!?

[Volourn]

Or better yet have it so the xp you gain during the game gets you nowhere enar those levels to that. Besdies, if youa re so worried about Yoda's power elevl; you could always "buff" him up; noit that it would be neccessary.

 

 

There would be no need to rework anything though as like I said, I'm against level caps; not limiting xp given to players. Is that really too hard to comprehend?

 

I'd rathe rhave a game that limits me to 12th level that gives me 60 hours of play time and great roleplaying than one that lets me reach 30th level in 50 hours of game time and poor roel-playing. Change the levels around and my reaction would be the same.

 

Role-playing and story is what truly matters not silly levels. Therefore, level limits are unneeded as they are lame.

[Shdy314]

Everything you say is contradictory. You hate having too much XP and levelling yet you want your character to have no limits on how high he can level. This is just comepletely arbitrary then. We'll say the cap is 100 but then put in enough XP to let you reach 10? That is stupid. It is only going to piss off casual gamers who think ooooh wow I can reach level 100. That is why I am glad you are not a developer I have no doubt your games would be interesting but commercially they would all fail. But I stand by my statement that leveling is part of roleplaying. At least if you do it well. Take DnD and the strongholds you got once you reached a high enough level. That's because levels are supposed to be measurements of your ability, prestige and power etc. Not just arbitrary stat/ability raises you get for slaughtering enough enemies. In KOTOR there is no need to go to level 100 because being level 20 means you are a legendary figure of incredible historical significance. There are just no games that properly convey this feeling. You only get it in PnP roleplaying. I'm glad you are stingy with the XP. I personally prefer to give no Xp at all for combat. Only for quests.

[Volourn]

"you are a legendary figure of incredible historical significance."

 

You don't need to be 20th level to be that. Or 10th, or 5th, or even 1st. Like i said, level has nothing to do with role-playing. It has to do with character development. two completely different things.

 

I dunno. Casual gamers were find with SOU depsite not being able to reach the level cap there. They were fine with HOTU though they could get nowhere near level 40. They weren't fine with KOTOR's xp cap though. Why? Because you reach it before the end. That is wrong.

 

It's real funny you say my game swould fail commerically yet elsehwere I'ma ccused to accepting the pandering of the masses. i wish both sides would get their heads togetehr so I know exactly how I am. Confiusiong soemtime when I'm referred to two opposite things. Weird stuff.

 

Funny things i you forget I'm discussing my ideal idea. Who's to say i couldn't compromise on a reasonable xp cap if asked to if I were actually trying to make money? LOL

 

Besides, not to be arrogant 9even though I am ); but I'd think my good dieas that people would like would outweigh things about my deisgn choices they would dislike. Just a theory I have on my avried test subjects. hehe. not that i'd ever be able to prove it eitehr way sicne I'll never be allowed such an oppurtunity. :angry:

 

Thanks for making me sad.

 

P.S. I'm not really sad as I'm always happy.

[Shdy314]

No 1st level character is significant. At least not in D20. I don't know how you can think that. I don't care what other people have told you. Different situations and different people. They are wrong and I am right. Casual gamers didn't play HoTU to reach level 40 they wanted to get prestige classes. Which they got. I am just saying pretending the level cap is 100 though it is impossible to reach 100 is cheap and basically a flat out lie to consumers. Why not just be honest and say 10? Oh well. I will console myself with the fact there will be a level cap in KOTOR 2 and every time I hit it I will think of you. B)

[Volourn]

LOL

 

Or they could do what BIo did with SOU. Tell peopel the cap is level 20; but they'd probably wouldn't get higher than level 13, or 14 which is true.

 

It's not about pretending; it's baout not having an arbitrary xp cap at all.

 

Le'ts go with your premise that levelling *is* important to role-playing. That just makes the KOTOR scenario worst. Why? Because you reach the cap before end game. Menaing, according to you, you arne't finished the game but one of the important elements of 'role-playing' is now taken away from you. LOL i coudl live with a cap if there is real logical reason to reach it. It's not my preferred style; but I've lived with it in multiple games so i think i can survive another game with a cap. LOL

[Shdy314]

LOL

 

Or they could do what BIo did with SOU. Tell peopel the cap is level 20; but they'd probably wouldn't get higher than level 13, or 14 which is true.

 

It's not about pretending; it's baout not having an arbitrary xp cap at all.

 

Le'ts go with your premise that levelling *is* important to role-playing. That just makes the KOTOR scenario worst. Why? Because you reach the cap before end game. Menaing, according to you, you arne't finished the game but one of the important elements of 'role-playing' is now taken away from you. LOL i coudl live with a cap if there is real logical reason to reach it. It's not my preferred style; but I've lived with it in multiple games so i think i can survive another game with a cap. LOL

Yeah I've already said about 10 times now XP caps are only bad when you hit them mid way into the game. Reaching them at the end is best. There's a nice feeling of accomplishment from it. Because it should require doing practically every quest.

[Iolo]

There should always be a cap. What need would there be for no cap if the game is finite? Besides, eventually you will run out of feats and force powers and class abilities you can get since the developers would only be able to implement so many in the timeframe they have.

[Enoch]

Arguments like these are yet another reason why combat-based XP is a bad idea.