Defender 2.0 beta nerf

[View619]

Disagree, additional engagement is useless if you're chance to land disengagement attacks is reduced. If I want to focus on increasing deflection only, there are talents for that.

 

Defending is about more than just making a single unit harder to hit when enemies are willing to switch targets.

Edited September 1, 2015 by View619

[MunoValente]

I agree that I like the reduction better on deflection than accuracy, because it allows for better disengagement attacks.  Also even in it's current state it does help the defense the fighter some because they are much less likely to get flanked status, which is a bigger penalty than -5.

 

I think in it's current state defender is ok, although it is exclusive with more modals than I'd like, don't see any good reason for it to be exclusive to Savage Attack for example.  I'm not sure if it's exclusive with Cautious Attack, but I don't think it should be.  Which modals are exclusive and which aren't is unclear, confusing and unintuitive,  

 

Wary Defender I think is kind of lacking, largely because I don't think it has good synergy with Defender anymore, maybe if they don't want add deflection to Wary, maybe they could give like +5 to disengagement attacks or something like that.

[View619]

Modal exclusivity in general is pretty poor. I'm hoping the developers add information to the Journal, it's very unclear.

 

I can agree with Wary Defender being weak since the adjustment, the addition of accuracy on disengagement attacks would provide good synergy with the base Defender talent.

[Njall]

Disagree. Fighters still need better defenses, as things stand, they're pretty far behind paladins in terms of deflection and defenses, behind monks in terms of non-deflection defenses and slightly behind chanters as far as deflection goes.

They have other options that increase accuracy and damage (weapon mastery and confident aim).They need something that makes them better at reducing damage and cc duration, since, atm, they're out of luck in that regard.

[Elric Galad]

Make Unbending always active instead of constant recovery as class default ability. Maybe at a lower percentage like 33%.

 

Make constant recovery a class talent.

 

Make the Unbending instantly dispell or suspend any negative effects 3-5 times per rest.

 

That's all fighters need IMHO.

[Njall]

Make Unbending always active instead of constant recovery as class default ability. Maybe at a lower percentage like 33%.

Make constant recovery a class talent.

Make the Unbending instantly dispell or suspend any negative effects 3-5 times per rest.

That's all fighters need IMHO.

Unbending always up would mean +5dr and +10 to all defenses. The bonus dr is huge at low levels, and the healing too. If they scaled with your level and endurance it would work, but as it stands it would need to be adjusted at the very least.

 

My (other) take would be to take the other fighter modal, the one I don't even remember how it's named now( because really, did someone ever take it?), and make it about engagement and defender about boosting the fighter's defenses or vice-versa. This way, you cover both playstyles and give fighters a meaningful choice.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Njall

[MunoValente]

Yeah Guardian Stance is weak, people might use it if it directly added something to the fighters deflection.

[Njall]

Yeah Guardian Stance is weak, people might use it if it directly added something to the fighters deflection.

Thanks, dude, "guardian stance"!I always thought it was named something like "weak-ass modal version of an unused high-level chant", guess I was getting the name wrong

[Elric Galad]

Njall, I was speaking about unbending, not unbroken.

 

It was only an idea. I think Unbending is quite an unique skill that fits fighter perfectly and could be a powerful defining trait.

[Njall]

Njall, I was speaking about unbending, not unbroken.

It was only an idea. I think Unbending is quite an unique skill that fits fighter perfectly and could be a powerful defining trait.

Ops, got the names mixed up, sorry. Uhm, if it were always up it'd be insane. It would be cool if it were 1/encounter, applied a shield in order to mitigate a bit of health loss and had some sort of situational refresh mechanism. That'd make tanking a bit more involved and fun, but being fighters the low manteinance tanks, I doubt it'll happen.

Speaking of which, this game really lacks an "active" tank, someone that can take care of its own health bar but requires more micro-management.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Njall

[Elric Galad]

Melee wizard is an active tank, I guess.

 

And there should be a way to build fighter as an active tank (as well as a passive tank).

 

But I agree with you, I doubt it will happen.

The best reasonnable change would be a better scaling constant recovery.

[Njall]

[...]

And there should be a way to build fighter as an active tank (as well as a passive tank).

 

Yeah, that'd be great, but it'd be really hard to balance.

Ideally, you'd want both builds to be equally viable; however, making all the class abilities equally good would be really hard, even if you keep the builds balanced with each other.

In the end, people would just end up taking the best passives, combining them with the top active abilities and, likely, end up with the best of both worlds and a wildly unbalanced character.

[Luridis]

I saw a youtube video once of an RPG developer's conference. One of the bigger names, Bioware-pre-EA I think, made the comment that when you're going to nerf something, to always overdue it. It was apparently their standard practice. Then, once the balance has been sorted, ease back off the previous nerf until it is just right.

 

Why? He explained nibbling players to death with repeat nerfs that aren't quite enough and, where was adjustment still needed, creates far more forum rage than one big hit that you eventually relent and back off on a little.

 

LOL Sorry Josh, I had to let the cat out of that bag.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Luridis

[Elric Galad]

Well, maybe. Josh Sawyer indeed declared that they might compensate for the nerf later.

 

The point is that defender itself was more changed than nerfed. I think it is pretty balanced now.

 

The real nerf was to wary defender. In 1.06, this talent was strictly better than NPC paladin defining trait. It was strictly better than 4 talents (bear fortitude etc... and the deflection talent)

 

+5 to all defenses except deflection is a rather good talent. I could pick it for any class if available. For me it is now a balanced talent.

 

So basically defender nerf made things more balanced.

 

 

The real problem is that wary defender was hiding that constant recovery is a very weak defining class trait.

A very weak class trait that was even more nerfed in 2.0...

[Njall]

Constant recovery, even if it were buffed, does nothing to prevent health loss, though, it just restores endurance.

High defenses (or DR ) are necessary in order to keep a tank going over the course of the day, and both monks and paladins are now way ahead in that regard (heck, high level chanters, ciphers and wizards, if you build them for defense, are now ahead of fighters in terms of deflection... that's just sad).

Edited September 2, 2015 by Njall

[Elric Galad]

I don't disagree but 2.0 buff to health recovery talents makes it a bit less critical.

[MunoValente]

Well, maybe. Josh Sawyer indeed declared that they might compensate for the nerf later.

 

The point is that defender itself was more changed than nerfed. I think it is pretty balanced now.

 

The real nerf was to wary defender. In 1.06, this talent was strictly better than NPC paladin defining trait. It was strictly better than 4 talents (bear fortitude etc... and the deflection talent)

 

+5 to all defenses except deflection is a rather good talent. I could pick it for any class if available. For me it is now a balanced talent.

 

So basically defender nerf made things more balanced.

 

 

The real problem is that wary defender was hiding that constant recovery is a very weak defining class trait.

A very weak class trait that was even more nerfed in 2.0...

 

I agree Defender and Wary both have their uses, but constant recovery isn't too good, Guardian is poor, Critical Defense is meh, Unbending being per rest makes it unexciting.  Defender being unnecessarily exclusive with a few other modals doesn't help either; really wanted to take Defender and Savage Attack on my current game, but wouldn't let me.

[Elric Galad]

Ok, let's go for Fighter's abilities review then !

Please note that this review is with party game in mind, and all this is only my own opinion ^^.

 

Miscellaneous :

 

Base stats 9/10 : fighters have great accuracy, deflection, endurance and health. They are second only to monks for base stats.

 

Skills 7/10 : Well spread. The best part is +1 Lore which is great for martial classes.

 

Constant Recovery 2/10 : One of the lamest base traits. Compare it to carnage or "faith and conviction" and cry. At least, it is not situational.

 

 

Abilities :

 

Knock Down 5/10 : An OK Tier 1 ability. Not comparable to casters CC, but never useless.

 

Disciplined Barrage 3/10 : weak, a bit short and stacks poorly with buffs. 

 

Defender 7/10 : Even in 2.0, it is still an unique ability. But now, it has to be supported by real tanking abilities.
EDITED : It is also not more powerful than a talent, now. Following the reaction of other people on this thread, I lower it to 4/10.

 

Confident Aim 7/10 : Reliable DPS, specially efficient against ennemies with high defense, which is a bit unique.

 

Guardian 3/10 : Why not for a little support. But not on par with Paladin's aura, and stacks poorly. Accuracy loss is a bit a problem for DPS.
EDITED : KDubya convinced me to lower it to 2/10.

 

Weapon Specialization 6/10 : Good, but other martial classes have better.   

EDITED : KDubya convinced me to lower it to 5/10.

 

Vigorous Defense 5/10 : Not bad, but it stacks poorly with Circle of Protection. Without a priest, it deserves a better grade.

 

Into the Fray 5/10 : Very funny concept, good synergy with engagements bonus, but it lacks a bit raw power for an ability of this level. 

 

Unbending 6/10 : An interesting skill, has the potential to cut half of the damages during big fights with instant casting. Stacks with everything. I think this is a good design for a per rest skill, due its epicness (per rest skills should be epic fight skills). A few more seconds for long term mitigation could still be nice.

EDITED : Not convenient, usually less powerful than a good old Lay on Hand. In spite of its possible potential, I'm finally going to give it a 3/10.

 

Clear Out 2/10 : Poor man's slicken. Fighter is not a wizard and this skill was developped to prove it. Knock Out is forgiveable because it is a Lvl 1 ability, and is spammable. This one is a skill with few uses that is as good as a lvl 1 wizard spell. Not situational at least : that saves this skill from a merciless 1/10. 

 

Armored Grace 5/10 : Armored Grace works also when your armor is a robe. Weird. Mathematically inferior to other fighter DPS passive (due to recovery being only about 60% of attack time) but works with various other action like scroll reading.

 

Critical defense 4/10 : A good tank should not receives critical hits too often anyway. Stacks well, and probably works on build with low deflection. Works also against spells (I think). Not very impressive, but not bad.

 

Unbroken 7/10 : second chance on steroids. Save Adra armor for your other tank. A good skills that would have been better, once more, if it stacked. 

 

I didn't test White March abilities, but they don't sound as good as other martials'.

DR reduction strike sounds good, but now Wizards can do this 4x per encounter with AoE. Trying to imitate casters is not the best way for martial classes...

Damage redirection sounds like a false good idea : Tanking is meant to redirect blows from characters with low defenses to characters with high defenses. This skills basically enables ennemies to strike a warrior as if he has the defense of a light armored rogue... Please Obsidian, redirect a percentage of blows, not damages !
 

 

Talents :

 

Bonus Knock Down 3/10 : Not that much necessary. Fighters, like all martial classes, are talent hungry. This does not sound like a great pick. Sure, Knock Down is OK, but more than 2 times per encounter is a bit situational.

 

Wary defender 4/10 : Not incredibly good anymore but still OK. It's like a good old +1 to all saves from D&D. Good if you pick Defender.

 

Rapid Recovery 1/10 : This is able to cure the wounds from 1 single fly of the ogre druid swarm.

 

Weapon Mastery 5/10 : Not bad. Not great.

 

 

So my conclusion is : Fighters have a lot of very average abilities, with a few ones a bit above average. The good part is that many of them are passive, and therefore easy to stack. That means they don't need a lot of change.

But they really really miss gamechanging abilities.

Once more, this is only my opinion.

 

Hey Obsidian, your game is really great ! This is because its mechanics are so great that I'm so interested in complaining ^^ 
 

Edited September 4, 2015 by Elric Galad

[Mechalibur]

Constant Recovery absolutely needs some form of scaling with level. Early on it's extremely potent, but right now my Eder has about 350 endurance, and it's barely even noticeable. By the same token, the fighter multiclass talent needs some scaling as well.

[spardeous]

 

The question every one seems to be missing is "What class is meant to be a tank?"

 

 

PoE is NOT DnD, it is not Icewind Dale, it is not BG, etc.

If we are all going to persist in thinking this game is the same as the old games, we are all going to sit around being unhappy about the game.

 

[...]

 

On the other hand, if fighters are meant to fight then there is nothing wrong with the nerf.

 

And PoE isn't an MMO either.

 

No class is supposed to be a tank. Fighters have some offensive abilities and some defensive ones. It 'just happens' you can build them as a tank. Or at least you could before the nerf to Defender.

Regardless of what you may think about roles, they are absolutely necessary. Deflection buffs do not last long enough to provide meaningful protection, and decking out every character in heavy armor would be silly.

Edited September 3, 2015 by spardeous

[KDubya]

Ok, let's go for Fighter's abilities review then !

Please note that this review is with party game in mind, and all this is only my own opinion ^^.

 

Miscellaneous :

 

Base stats 9/10 : fighters have great accuracy, deflection, endurance and health. They are second only to monks for base stats.

 

Skills 7/10 : Well spread. The best part is +1 Lore which is great for martial classes.

 

Constant Recovery 2/10 : One of the lamest base traits. Compare it to carnage or "faith and conviction" and cry. At least, it is not situational.

 

 

Abilities :

 

Knock Down 5/10 : An OK Tier 1 ability. Not comparable to casters CC, but never useless.

Disciplined Barrage 3/10 : weak, a bit short and stacks poorly with buffs. 

 

Defender 7/10 : Even in 2.0, it is still an unique ability. But now, it has to be supported by real tanking abilities.

 

Confident Aim 7/10 : Reliable DPS, specially efficient against ennemies with high defense, which is a bit unique.

 

Guardian 3/10 : Why not for a little support. But not on par with Paladin's aura, and stacks poorly. Accuracy loss is a bit a problem for DPS.

 

Weapon Specialization 6/10 : Good, but other martial classes have better.   

 

Vigorous Defense 5/10 : Not bad, but it stacks poorly with Circle of Protection. Without a priest, it deserves a better grade.

 

Into the Fray 5/10 : Very funny concept, good synergy with engagements bonus, but it lacks a bit raw power for an ability of this level. 

 

Unbending 6/10 : An interesting skill, has the potential to cut half of the damages during big fights with instant casting. Stacks with everything. I think this is a good design for a per rest skill, due its epicness (per rest skills should be epic fight skills). A few more seconds for long term mitigation could still be nice.

 

Clear Out 2/10 : Poor man's slicken. Fighter is not a wizard and this skill was developped to prove it. Knock Out is forgiveable because it is a Lvl 1 ability, and is spammable. This one is a skill with few uses that is as good as a lvl 1 wizard spell. Not situational at least : that saves this skill from a merciless 1/10. 

 

Armored Grace 5/10 : Armored Grace works also when your armor is a robe. Weird. Mathematically inferior to other fighter DPS passive (due to recovery being only about 60% of attack time) but works with various other action like scroll reading.

 

Critical defense 4/10 : A good tank should not receives critical hits too often anyway. Stacks well, and probably works on build with low deflection. Works also against spells (I think). Not very impressive, but not bad.

 

Unbroken 7/10 : second chance on steroids. Save Adra armor for your other tank. A good skills that would have been better, once more, if it stacked. 

 

I didn't test White March abilities, but they don't sound as good as other martials'.

DR reduction strike sounds good, but now Wizards can do this 4x per encounter with AoE. Trying to imitate casters is not the best way for martial classes...

Damage redirection sounds like a false good idea : Tanking is meant to redirect blows from characters with low defenses to characters with high defenses. This skills basically enables ennemies to strike a warrior as if he has the defense of a light armored rogue... Please Obsidian, redirect a percentage of blows, not damages !

 

 

Talents :

 

Bonus Knock Down 3/10 : Not that much necessary. Fighters, like all martial classes, are talent hungry. This does not sound like a great pick. Sure, Knock Down is OK, but more than 2 times per encounter is a bit situational.

 

Wary defender 4/10 : Not incredibly good anymore but still OK. It's like a good old +1 to all saves from D&D. Good if you pick Defender.

 

Rapid Recovery 1/10 : This is able to cure the wounds from 1 single fly of the ogre druid swarm.

 

Weapon Mastery 5/10 : Not bad. Not great.

 

 

So my conclusion is : Fighters have a lot of very average abilities, with a few ones a bit above average. The good part is that many of them are passive, and therefore easy to stack. That means they don't need a lot of change.

 

But they really really miss gamechanging abilities.

Once more, this is only my opinion.

 

Hey Obsidian, your game is really great ! This is because its mechanics are so great that I'm so interested in complaining ^^ 

 

 

Here is where I'd disagree:

 

Skills being spread out is bad the way the skill system works. Each additional free point at start saves you an exponential amount of skills at the highest level. If you need level 10 in a skill the last level costs 9 skill points. If you have 1 free one you save the 9 points, two free points saves you 9+8=17 skill points. One person needs mechanics at least level 10, everyone needs athletics 3 or 4, 3 or 4 in stealth is useful, beyond that lore is the best to get high for scrolls unless you eat a lot of food in which case a high survival could be good.

 

Constant recovery - have it scale to be roughly twice as strong as current and it would still not be as useful as lay on hands or savage defiance.

 

You give Defender high marks, 7/10 but say it needs to be backed by real tanking abilities. Defender can't be active when cautious attack is active. The only other tanking ability is weapon and shield style but that precludes using the more damaging two handed or dual wielding set ups. All it gets you is +2 engagements for -5 deflection. Taking hold the line would get you +1 engagement for no malus and let you take cautious attack or savage attack modals if you wanted. I'd give it 5/10 at best

 

Confident Aim gets you +20% minimum damage = +10% average damage and the 20% graze to hit which for deflection=accuracy would convert 7 out of 35 grazes to hit which do +50% damage or 3.5% extra damage on average which increases the harder it is to hit. At accuracy= deflection +50 (0-65 miss) your damage increase would be effectively 35% more damage (35 grazes at -50% damage become 28 grazes at -50% and 7 hits at +0%) Actually 7/10 sounds pretty good.

 

Guardian is pure trash. has anyone ever taken it? Only good for a meatsack punching bag and chanters and paladins can be so much more effective at this then a fighter, not that building for a punching bag is a good idea anymore anyway.  A Paladin gets useful Auras that benefit himself as well as not having a huge malus. 1/10

 

Unbending is only 3 per rest, lasts 15 seconds at base and stops 50% of the damage. Make that once per encounter and it would be something. I've never used this so maybe I am missing the awesome sauce here. EDIT - Let's say you have 200 endurance and in the tough fight you take 200 damage over 15 seconds and die. Instead you activate Unbending and heal back 100 endurance and are left with 100 endurance remaining. That is weaker than a comparable level lay on hands which would heal more over a shorter period of time, can be used on anyone and gets two per encounter. The barbarian's Savage Defiance aloso heals more over a shorter period of time and can be used once per encounter.  I'd give it a 2/10

 

Unbroken is a great ability but it is only available at level 11, can be replaced with any second chance item, does not stack with second chance and how often are you getting knocked out in the first place? Make this the default fighter ability instead of the crappy regen.

 

Weapon specialty - make this a talent instead of an ability and increase damage or add accuracy. A rogue's reckless assault gets 20% damage, +8 accuracy and a malus of -8 deflection. A mere +15% that is restricted to a single weapon group pales in comparison.

 

Weapon mastery only gets you +10% damage and only if you take the weapon specialty and only affects the one group. needs to be increased with accuracy or more damage to be competitive. Ciphers get a +20% talent that works with every weapon.

 

Fighter are the "Other Guys" of PoE. Eder will still have a place in the party since he is a great character and is good enough as a supporting actor in a team of six but a fighter as a main character just doesn't have the star appeal to be the lead.

Edited September 3, 2015 by KDubya

[Njall]

I'll have to disagree on the 5/10 to defender.  I'd rate it even lower, and I don't really understand how people are deeming it a good pick, as things stand.

If you grab defender+ superior deflection, you're at +0 defense, +2 targets engaged, just like if you spent 2 general talents on hold the line ( you can't, obviously, but it's just to quantify the resources invested ), except that with defender, we're talking a class ability, which are supposedly stronger, rather than a general talent instead of two talents, and you're locked out of modals. 

As you note, both ciphers and rogues get class talents or class abilities that complement their role, and that are far better than both general talents and what the other, less offense-oriented classes get; that's exactly the reason the old defender was good but not overpowered in the context it was presented, and, considering what Josh said, I still don't understand why they decided to nerf it in the first place, since, compared to the alternative (cautious attack), it ended up increasing the fighter's deflection by just 5 points, and instead they nerfed it by 20 friggin points.

The way I see it, the issue with fighters is the same it's been since forever in D&D: they're built on a better chassis than most other classes ( high accuracy, good health/endurance, good deflection ) and thus perform better at low levels.

Also, they got some decent low-level abilities, roughly equivalent to 1st level spells, and constant recovery, which is (was?) pretty sweet when you're level 4.

 

Unfortunately, most of their abilities don't scale in either number of uses nor  effectiveness, and, at high levels, when the steam of being built on a slightly better chassis runs off, they just fall behind.  

They're supposed to be low manteinance, so they should get good passives and modals, but instead they get a bunch of low impact passive bonuses and the only really good modal they got was just nerfed.

Also, their self healing doesn't really scale, and that includes both constant recovery and unbroken, which, IIRC, is only impacted by might.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Njall

[Gary1986]

Defender + Superior Deflection = +2 engagement

 

Hold The Line + Superior Deflection = +1 engagement +5 Deflection

 

Why anybody would pick Defender now is beyond me. (plus you could throw cautious attack in there for + deflection). 

Edited September 3, 2015 by Gary1986

[MunoValente]

Defender + Superior Deflection = +2 engagement

 

Hold The Line + Superior Deflection = +1 engagement +5 Deflection

 

Why anybody would pick Defender now is beyond me. (plus you could throw cautious attack in there for + deflection). 

Because 2 engagements is more than one and someone thinks the extra engagement is worth -5 deflection?  The extra engagement is definitely worth -5 if it prevents flanked status and it might also be worth it if keeps more people off your back line or if your fighter can deal out good disengagement hits.  It also frees you up to take an attacking ability rather than hold the line.

 

Obviously if you're trying to max out deflection, you skip defender and take cautious attack instead, defender is either for fighters that are more active and/or have really high CON.

 

Defender's biggest issue right now is that it's exclusive to Savage and Cautious Attack no good reason.  Fighters bigger issue is that a lot of their other abilities are lacking and Defender was masking that.

[Njall]

 

Defender + Superior Deflection = +2 engagement

 

Hold The Line + Superior Deflection = +1 engagement +5 Deflection

 

Why anybody would pick Defender now is beyond me. (plus you could throw cautious attack in there for + deflection).

 

Because 2 engagements is more than one and someone thinks the extra engagement is worth -5 deflection? The extra engagement is definitely worth -5 if it prevents flanked status and it might also be worth it if keeps more people off your back line or if your fighter can deal out good disengagement hits. It also frees you up to take an attacking ability rather than hold the line.

 

Obviously if you're trying to max out deflection, you skip defender and take cautious attack instead, defender is either for fighters that are more active and/or have really high CON.

 

Defender's biggest issue right now is that it's exclusive to Savage and Cautious Attack no good reason. Fighters bigger issue is that a lot of their other abilities are lacking and Defender was masking that.

Defender wasn't masking anything, defender was one of the good abilities fighters are now lacking. "Let's nerf the fighter's only good defensive ability in order to bring it in line with his other bad abilities and then complain that fighters lack good abilities " doesn't strike me as good logic, sorry. Edited September 3, 2015 by Njall