Some questions about timeline (spoilers)

[Madscientist]

I write down what I think that happened in the past and in brackets I write my comments or questions to it:

 

- Since the beginning of time people kill each other in the name of gods that did not exist.

 

- Over 2000 years ago scientists found out that gods do not exist. (Thaos was one of them?)

 

- Ancient scientists create the gods we know. ( Maybe this is the scene where Thaos speaks to a large crowd and sacrifices them to the machine?)

  From now on people can kill each other in the name of gods that do exist.

 

- Woedica gives Thaos power (perfect memory, posessing the bodies of others, being reborn as himself) and she gives him the task to hide the fact that gods were created. He founds the leaden key and manipulates history since then.

 

- After that, but still a long time in the past, Magram fights and defeats Woedica. Woedica is weakened so she cannot do things herself or speak to normal people. Thaos tries to bring her back to power since then.

 

- 15 years ago Eothas shows up as Waidwen. He conquers Redceras and than he attacks Dyrwood. (Why does the god of life start a war?)

 

- Eothas is blown up with a bomb that has been made with the help of Magram. (People want to protect their country from an invasion and the god of war participates in a war. That makes sense.) After that Magram kills everybody who made the bomb except Durance, because he does not return to the cathedral. (She is a god and she does not want that there are people who know how to kill a god.)

 

- Thaos used the towers to send souls to Woedica. This causes the hollowborn crises. People think it was caused by Eothas death.

 

- The game starts

 

more questions:

- It is said that Magram conspired with Woedica to kill Eothas. The only indication to that is the final dialogue with Durance. It make no sense to me. Magram defeats Woedica in the past and she hepls me to prevent her return (Quest for the blessing of Galawain). Why would she help Woedica in between?

 

-I think there was a hint that Eothas started the war to stop Thaos from causing the hollowborn. But the hollowborn thing started after killing Eothas.

 

- Why did Thaos wait over 2000 years before he used the towers to collect souls and bring back Woedica? The towers were there all the time?

[gkathellar]

 

- Over 2000 years ago scientists found out that gods do not exist. (Thaos was one of them?)

 

It's not totally clear if he was one of the researchers. Certainly he was an Engwithan, and the Engwithans determined this - to their satisfaction, anyway.

 

- Ancient scientists create the gods we know. ( Maybe this is the scene where Thaos speaks to a large crowd and sacrifices them to the machine?)

  From now on people can kill each other in the name of gods that do exist.

 

Right. It's implied that the Engwithans sacrificed themselves willingly in order to create the giant masses of soul energy known as gods.

 

 

(Why does the god of life start a war?)

 

It's not really clear - Durance certainly provides the best explanation later in his personal quest, where he guesses that Eothas may have wanted to conquer the Dyrwood before Thaos could make a move on its animancers. If that's the case, it's ironic, because the Godhammer guaranteed that Thaos would get involved in the Dyrwood's affairs.

 

I think the other big possibilities are that Waidwen was just kind of a vainglorious ass, or that Readceras really needed the Dyrwood's natural resources to feed its population.

 

 

- Eothas is blown up with a bomb that has been made with the help of Magram. (People want to protect their country from an invasion and the god of war participates in a war. That makes sense.)

 

Emphasis mine. More than that, it's a matter of opportunity. Magran considers Eothas her enemy, and she's long vied with him for followers in the Dyrwood. She blew him up because she had a chance and she figured could get away with it.

 

 

After that Magram kills everybody who made the bomb except Durance, because he does not return to the cathedral. (She is a god and she does not want that there are people who know how to kill a god.)

 

She also wanted to hide her involvement. Durance and his ilk were the only witnesses, essentially.

 

 

- It is said that Magram conspired with Woedica to kill Eothas. The only indication to that is the final dialogue with Durance. It make no sense to me. Magram defeats Woedica in the past and she hepls me to prevent her return (Quest for the blessing of Galawain). Why would she help Woedica in between?

 

The enemy of her enemy was her friend (until her enemy was dead, at least) - Durance explains that Magran is opposed to Eothas and Hylea. She is the god of strategy, after all.

 

 

-I think there was a hint that Eothas started the war to stop Thaos from causing the hollowborn. But the hollowborn thing started after killing Eothas.

 

Thaos was definitely going to make a move on the Dyrwood sooner or later, since his M.O. is to prevent the development of animancy and the rediscovery of Engwithan science. Again, the whole "killed a god" thing can't have made Thaos happy either, even if that god may have been opposed to him.

 

 

- Why did Thaos wait over 2000 years before he used the towers to collect souls and bring back Woedica? The towers were there all the time?

 

I think we can assume he was waiting for a good moment. Restoring Woedica was a bonus, but his primary goal was the destruction of animancy by scapegoating it for the Legacy.

[Madscientist]

Why do you think that Thaos was not happy about blowing up Eothas.

Magram and Woedica worked together to kill Eothas (if Durance is right) and Thaos is the high priest of Woedica. When his god wants somebody dead he should be happy when Eothas died. And with the killing of Eothas, Thaos can do all kind of things without people blaming him. The death of the god of life is one of the better excuses why there is so many death in the world.

 

Thaos knows almost everything what happens in the world. It would not surprise me if members of the leaden key (or even Thaos himself) were involved in building the bomb and blowing up Eothas. Maybe one of Durance colleagues was a spy.

 

(took me some time of thinking after writing the stuff above. Now comes the result of this thinking.)

 

Magram worked together with Woedica to kill Eothas.

Magram had a chance to defeat her enemy.

Woedica told Thaos to use the leaden key to make Eothas start a war. Maybe they made sure that the situation there will get so bad that a revolution will come and that they will attack Dyrwood. The leaden key is good in conspiracies.

 

This is what Magram knew. All that she wanted was the death of her enemy. She did not know how this could help Woedica to return.

 

But Woedica and Thaos are experts for long term plans. They knew that killing Eothas would cause so much chaos that it would allow Thaos to bring back Woedica without drawing much attention to themselves.

 

When the hollowborn thing started, Magram was shocked like most other people and she was angry that Woedica used her (Magram) for her (Woedicas) revival. Magram wants Woedica to stay weak and so she helps the player to kill Thaos. Magram does not want to kill Woedica because the last time she killed a god, things turned out different than she expected.

[Madscientist]

One more thing.

I think it is safe to assume that Thaos made the Glanfathans worship the ruins.

 

Those people protect the ruins, even though they have no idea who build them and what is their purpose.

This makes them very similar to the members of the leaden key.

Motto: We have no idea what we are doing and why, but we do what our boss says and kill everyone who interfers.

 

What is more secret than a secret organisation?

A group of poeple who do not know that they are members of a secret organisation and who do not know that this organisation exists at all.

[AndreaColombo]

Those people protect the ruins, even though they have no idea who build them and what is their purpose.

 

The Glanfathans are very well aware of the fact that it was the Engwithans who built those ruins and machines; they do not know what the purpose of the machines is or how to activate them, however.

 

They do say that the Engwithans themselves tasked them with guarding the ruins, which smells a lot of preventing other people in general (and animancers in particular) from figuring out how the machines work and what purpose they serve(d).

 

Blindly following something you don't fully understand is, after all, one of the themes in PIllars of Eternity.

Edited August 7, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[Strange_Trees]

 

 

-I think there was a hint that Eothas started the war to stop Thaos from causing the hollowborn. But the hollowborn thing started after killing Eothas.

 

Thaos was definitely going to make a move on the Dyrwood sooner or later, since his M.O. is to prevent the development of animancy and the rediscovery of Engwithan science. Again, the whole "killed a god" thing can't have made Thaos happy either, even if that god may have been opposed to him.

 

 

 

- Why did Thaos wait over 2000 years before he used the towers to collect souls and bring back Woedica? The towers were there all the time?

 

I think we can assume he was waiting for a good moment. Restoring Woedica was a bonus, but his primary goal was the destruction of animancy by scapegoating it for the Legacy.

 

So I've been pondering and I have some thoughts...

 

- Thaos' primary goal was first and foremost was to prevent the discovery of the gods artificial nature by any means necessary. Animancy is the current issue for him, as it seems to be progressing closer towards the technology the Engwithans used to create the gods.

(Okay I just realized something checking the PoE wiki. Aedyr banned animancy 500~ years before the game takes place after an incident where a soul transferred into a dead body woke up and went on a rampage. Isn't that the memory the watcher sees in the asylum when you run into Thaos there? In which case, he's been slowly unravelling support for animancy for a loooong time... I should find a save near there and double-check)

 

- Empowering Woedica so she could rein in the other gods was something he'd have to be careful about. If some catastrophe befell the world right as Woedica ascended to power, someone might make the connection. Scapegoating animancy would have allowed him to collect souls for however long it took people to finally snap and stamp out ALL animancy in the Dyrwood, at which point I assume he would have had the soul stealing stop, letting the population believe that animancy was the culprit. He gets a pile of souls to feed Woedica AND stamps out a threat to his cause at the same time.

 

- Eothas was undoubtedly a wrench in the plan, possibly forcing Thaos to act faster than he would have liked. For one, a god taking on a mortal avatar and acting directly seems to be a massive overstepping of boundaries. Thaos might have seen this as a red-flag that Woedica was needed to lay down some law before the other gods started toeing the line. Kicking the hollowborn plan into action at that point really didn't help his anti-animancy cause. Sure lots of people still blamed it, but the blame was split between animancy and Waidwen, instead of animancy alone.

 

- If Eothas did pull the whole Waidwen/Readceras invasion thing to stop Thaos from empowering Woedica, I wonder why that was his choice of plan? Was he going to use Readceras to destroy the Engwithan machines, something that would have undoubtedly led to bloodshed with the Glanfathans? Did he just not have enough influence with the Dyrwood itself? Questions, questions...

[jsaving]

- 15 years ago Eothas shows up as Waidwen. He conquers Redceras and than he attacks Dyrwood. (Why does the god of life start a war?)

To me, this is the big unresolved mystery in the Pillars timeline.  Why would the god of renewal suddenly change his lifelong tactics and start a war?  One possibility is that new facts on the ground compelled Eothas to adjust his tactics.  Thaos' plan regarding the Hollowborn makes sense as a precipating cause because a) he is a uniquely powerful threat who would b) need to be able to operate freely in the Drywood so that he could c) stop the death-and-rebirth renewal cycle knowing full well that d) his possession powers would enable him to control and then subvert any mortal who might lead an effort to oppose him.  With Eothas' portfolio endangered and any mortal follower susceptible to Thaos' powers, perhaps Eothas felt he had no choice but to take personal command of the effort. 

 

(Alternatively, it could be that Waidwen's tactics seem out-of-line with Eothasian principles because Waidwen wasn't Eothas at all, but rather someone who framed Eothas for a failed war knowing Eothasians would be persecuted in its aftermath.  This seems unlikely given the nearly universally held belief among mortals and divines alike that Waidwen as Eothas, but given the PoE team's occasional tendency to turn expectations on their head, it probably deserves at least a mention...)

[gkathellar]

 

 

- 15 years ago Eothas shows up as Waidwen. He conquers Redceras and than he attacks Dyrwood. (Why does the god of life start a war?)

To me, this is the big unresolved mystery in the Pillars timeline. Why would the god of renewal suddenly change his lifelong tactics and start a war? One possibility is that new facts on the ground compelled Eothas to adjust his tactics. Thaos' plan regarding the Hollowborn makes sense as a precipating cause because a) he is a uniquely powerful threat who would b) need to be able to operate freely in the Drywood so that he could c) stop the death-and-rebirth renewal cycle knowing full well that d) his possession powers would enable him to control and then subvert any mortal who might lead an effort to oppose him. With Eothas' portfolio endangered and any mortal follower susceptible to Thaos' powers, perhaps Eothas felt he had no choice but to take personal command of the effort.

 

(Alternatively, it could be that Waidwen's tactics seem out-of-line with Eothasian principles because Waidwen wasn't Eothas at all, but rather someone who framed Eothas for a failed war knowing Eothasians would be persecuted in its aftermath. This seems unlikely given the nearly universally held belief among mortals and divines alike that Waidwen as Eothas, but given the PoE team's occasional tendency to turn expectations on their head, it probably deserves at least a mention...)

Or Waidwen may have been Eothas' avatar, but still ultimately himself, doing what he personally felt was best under the circumstances. There's no reason to think that being the Vessel for a god would have stopped him from fundamentally being Waidwen.

[Strange_Trees]

Or Waidwen may have been Eothas' avatar, but still ultimately himself, doing what he personally felt was best under the circumstances. There's no reason to think that being the Vessel for a god would have stopped him from fundamentally being Waidwen.

Interesting, I never thought about that

What would happen when a being who is essentially a giant mass of artificially forged soul-essence forces its way into a body already occupied by it's proper, intended soul?

Other than a mess, since we already know that's how it ended

[Madscientist]

Ok, I think there are 2 theories about the saint war:

 

1.) The war started because Waidwen was a fanatic freak. Why Eothas choose Waidwen as his avatar will remain a mystery forever.

 

2.) Eothas knew that Thaos wants to do some very bad things. Thaos may be powerful, but he is not a god. Eothas thought that he can stop Thaos himself. Eothas did not think that other gods get involved and no mortal could kill him without divine help.

Thaos/Woedica knew that Eothas wants to stop Thaos. Thaos was in Dyrwood. Woedica told Magram that Eothas starts a war against Dyrwood (Woedica was too weak to stop Eothas herself). Magram did the whole godhammer thing because he attacks her country (Magram seems to be the most popular god in dyrwood) and he steals her domain (god of war). When the other gods saw what Thaos did later (hollowborn crises) they wanted to stop him. But they did not want to do it themselves (Eothas showed them that even gods can die) so they were looking for a worthy champion.

 

I prefer the second one, but I am not sure. I have one question: Do the other gods know that Thaos has the task to hide their origin?

If only Woedica knows, it seem normal that the other gods want to stop somebody who messes with the cycle of souls.

If all gods know Thaos task, things look different. Maybe they think that Thaos did a good job for a long time but now he went too far. After the game events they will replace him with somebody else. This one would have the same task, but he should do it without disturbing their domains.

 

PS: I with that you have the option to tell the world everything you know about Thaos and the gods (or you can choose not to do so) when the game ends.

 

Edit: After reading what I wrote, I had a crazy idea: The player character becomes the successor of Thaos!

Edited August 8, 2015 by Madscientist

[gkathellar]

1.) The war started because Waidwen was a fanatic freak. Why Eothas choose Waidwen as his avatar will remain a mystery forever.

 

Well, he was (probably) possessed by a god. As self-justifications for extreme behavior go, that's a pretty good one. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," and all that jazz.

 

I dunno that the two theories are even mutually exclusive - he might have known what was going on and what he needed to do by way of divine revelation, and then invaded the Dyrwood in force because he was a damn fool. What Waidwen did or did not know and how much he was or was not Eothas are both up in the air. I'm just pointing out that the needle need not point sharply one way or the other to explain his actions.

 

 

If all gods know Thaos task, things look different. Maybe they think that Thaos did a good job for a long time but now he went too far. After the game events they will replace him with somebody else.

 

They may not actually care about hiding their origins. Certainly Woedica and Skaen think people are best off ignorant and oppressed, but the other gods seem more concerned with their portfolios than ensuring the ignorance of kith. It is noted that they try not to interfere in mortal affairs as a point of policy, and several gods make clear that they feel Woedica has been really pushing it with the whole Leaden Key thing.

 

 

PS: I with that you have the option to tell the world everything you know about Thaos and the gods (or you can choose not to do so) when the game ends.

 

Who would believe you? Some people, sure, but plenty would hold onto their faith. Others just wouldn't care that the gods were works of artifice. Really, nothing serves this end better than just defeating Thaos and dismantling the Leaden Key - science and animancy will reveal what the truth more gradually, but probably also more meaningfully.

 

 

Edit: After reading what I wrote, I had a crazy idea: The player character becomes the successor of Thaos!

 

If you side with Woedica at the end, you can do exactly that. Alternately, you can encourage Aloth to become the new Grand Inquisitor.

[Varana]

The reason for the (majority of the) gods turning away from Thaos is, I think, his collaboration with Woedica. His open support for Woedica's return to power is a relatively recent thing, IIRC, and probably connected to the Hollowborn. That is, Eothas knew or suspected that Thaos was active in the Dyrwood not only to suppress animancy but to use this to hide his real actions, that is to feed souls to Woedica. And this he tried to stop. Thaos hadn't always been Woedica's pawn (or collaborator).

[Madscientist]

Thaos is a priest of Woedica since more than 2000 years. Woedica gave him his special powers (perfect memory, being reborn as himself, take control of other bodies). Woedica gave him the task to hide the gods origins.

 

Everybody says that Woedica wants to return and take vengance on those who wronged her. It is likely (but not sure) that she ordered him to prepare everything for her return. There are many who do not like Woedica (including most gods) and all of them will feel her wrath when she returns.