Keeping enemies in front me. Sloppy wins on PoTD last night.

[Torm51]

On my PoTD Trial of Iron I have been running 2 tanks.  Eder/Pallegina and Me (PC Paladin).  If there is a fight in an open area with no doorway/terrain to funnel the enemy many of them will disengage my tanks and take on my backline (Awesome!).  Neither Pallegina nor I have Hold the Line (I have been told that this really makes no difference) How do you guys handle this? I end up using my Wizard who has his per rest deflection shield and the 3rd level spell that gives high deflection and reflex as a final protective fires type defender but usually if the enemy gets this deep in my ranks it becomes a sloppy win.  Any advice on keeping stuff glued to my tanks in OPEN areas.

[Raven Darkholme]

I use Ectopsychic Echo if melee enemies get to close.

[Torm51]

Very good idea.  I do have a Cipher and have been using echo to clear rooms.  Don't know why I didn't think of it.

[HoopleDoople]

Mental Binding and Ectopsychic Echo definitely work wonders at keeping the battlefield under control. Paralyze/stuck can allow you to deal with enemies piecemeal while Ectopsychic Echo is a nasty surprise for anything that gets between your front and back lines. Buff your Cipher's accuracy as much as possible for maximum effect.

 

One tactic I often use in open areas is to send my best tank ahead to trigger the enemy attack. This leaves enemies a long walk through both a damaging beam and ranged fire before they reach the rest of my party. On trial of iron I'd recommend caution with this tactic, however, as your lead tank can be dangerously exposed against certain enemy types. 

Edited June 24, 2015 by HoopleDoople

[Torm51]

Mental Binding and Ectopsychic Echo definitely work wonders at keeping the battlefield under control. Paralyze/stuck can allow you to deal with enemies piecemeal while Ectopsychich Echo is a nasty surprise for anything that gets between your front and back lines. Buff your Cipher's accuracy as much as possible for maximum effect.

 

One tactic I often use in open areas is to send my best tank ahead to trigger the enemy attack. This leaves enemies a long walk through both a damaging beam and ranged fire before they reach the rest of my party. On trial of iron I'd recommend caution with this tactic, however, as your lead tank can be dangerously exposed against certain enemy types. 

Yep and I have these at my disposal.  I was blowing the CC on enemy mages to try and gib them.  So my Cipher didn't have the focus when my enemies got through my front line.  I need to readjust.  Especially on PoTD where there is more enemies.  I can just keep my back line out of enemy mage range.  They can toss all the spells they want at  my tanks as my Paladin has such great saves it makes mages look like Larpers throwing hackey sacks.  It will force the mages to try and get within range if they want to throw spells at my back line. and then I can gib them if necessary.  Have to save my CC more.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Torm51

[Raven Darkholme]

Or you just cast echo right at the start of every fight and recast only if either there are many enemies in line of it or if your squishies get attacked. You can build focus while Echo is active so it isn't really a waste.

[Torm51]

Or you just cast echo right at the start of every fight and recast only if either there are many enemies in line of it or if your squishies get attacked. You can build focus while Echo is active so it isn't really a waste.

Yep that too.  I didn't take Hold the Line this time like I did last time.  People were saying its a waste of a talent.  But I know I was not having this issue on my last run.  Granted it was on Hard not PoTD so less enemies.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Or you just cast echo right at the start of every fight and recast only if either there are many enemies in line of it or if your squishies get attacked. You can build focus while Echo is active so it isn't really a waste.

Yep that too.  I didn't take Hold the Line this time like I did last time.  People were saying its a waste of a talent.  But I know I was not having this issue on my last run.  Granted it was on Hard not PoTD so less enemies.

 

Hold the line doesn't work if you don't attack. If you're prone, heal or similar it doesn't work. It truly is a waste of talent because you will always engage more enemies than you can. Enemies are mostly stupid and will engage your tanks if you place yourself well.

With the bad pathing as it is right now you will find a safe spot for your squishies in almost any fight, you don't need doors.

[Torm51]

 

 

Or you just cast echo right at the start of every fight and recast only if either there are many enemies in line of it or if your squishies get attacked. You can build focus while Echo is active so it isn't really a waste.

Yep that too.  I didn't take Hold the Line this time like I did last time.  People were saying its a waste of a talent.  But I know I was not having this issue on my last run.  Granted it was on Hard not PoTD so less enemies.

 

Hold the line doesn't work if you don't attack. If you're prone, heal or similar it doesn't work. It truly is a waste of talent because you will always engage more enemies than you can. Enemies are mostly stupid and will engage your tanks if you place yourself well.

With the bad pathing as it is right now you will find a safe spot for your squishies in almost any fight, you don't need doors.

 

 

Yep this fight was specifically the quest you do for the Valian Emissary.  And I could have retreated a bit before the gates and there are smaller fences below the gate in which you can funnel them into.  Use of terrain is always there you are correct.  I was tired and got complacent and it almost cost me lol.

[Nobear]

Hold the line doesn't work if you don't attack. If you're prone, heal or similar it doesn't work. It truly is a waste of talent because you will always engage more enemies than you can. Enemies are mostly stupid and will engage your tanks if you place yourself well.

 

What do you mean that Hold the Line doesn't work if you don't attack? How do you know that? And is it that the talent is bugged, or is it something about how engagement works in general?

 

I haven't been counting enemies, but it seems to me that even on PoTD, you probably have a large % of fights where there are no more than five enemies around your tank. If you take a fighter with Defender and Hold the Line and give him a weapon with Guarding, he will have 10 more Deflection in a significantly higher % of situations than he would otherwise, no? I don't know if this is the only benefit, but 10 Deflection is nothing to sneeze at. So what's this about it not working if you don't attack?

 

Not trying to attack, but to understand. I want to have strong tanks with no wasted talents.

[Raven Darkholme]

You do not engage period if you don't attack in melee.

[Nobear]

So what effect does it have if, say, you are prone? Does it affect the enemy AI, or does it make you flanked or what? I am taking the talent to avoid the 10 Deflection debuff from flanked. Am I getting the flanked debuff anyway, even against one enemy if I am incapacitated or doing an action other than attacking them?

[Nobear]

Hm I just refreshed my memory about disengagement attacks. I guess I really haven't been paying attention to whether I can hit an enemy with one if he runs away. Is this all you mean about the effect of engagement you're losing if you're incapacitated or doing an action other than attacking?

[PrimeJunta]

@Nobear Status effects like prone, stunned, paralysed etc mean that you can't engage. Flanked is a separate status effect, which happens when you're targeted by multiple enemies. Dunno how it affects the AI, but those statuses are kind of bad news as you're not only unable to engage, but also suffer from some fairly serious debuffs.

 

So Hold the Line won't do anything if you're prone (or doing something else that's not attacking), since you won't be able to engage. It's only useful if you park yourself somewhere and use it to block enemies.

[Raven Darkholme]

You can't avoid getting flanked except by not getting surrounded btw.

[Gromnir]

am thinking that hold the line is misunderstood.  is the name that makes it misleading.  hold the line is not 'bout holding enemies, it's 'bout making those enemies pay when they try and get past you.  hold the line isn't a defensive ability as much as a potent offensive talent for front-liners. for a tank with wretched accuracy, hold the line does not offer much o' a pay-off.  conversely, for a high accuracy off-tank that is preventing possible flankers, hold the line will generate much pain 'pon the enemy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PrimeJunta]

@Gromnir with different AI that would be true. With the current one, engagement does (usually) effectively block an enemy. That makes it useful primarily as a defensive feat, to stop them from reaching your squishies.

[Gromnir]

@Gromnir with different AI that would be true. With the current one, engagement does (usually) effectively block an enemy. That makes it useful primarily as a defensive feat, to stop them from reaching your squishies.

am actually gonna suggest the opposite.  a large % of possible foes ignore engagement altogether.  some others have rational ai, but the ai is a bit too simple-- go straight for your squishies.  given how predictable the ai is, it is easy to position your off-tank to exploit hold the line. for the most part, enemies will engage your tank whether the tank has hold the line or not.  if your tank is first to engage, poe enemies will attack the tank regardless o' whether it is a paladin w/o hold the line, or a fighter in defender mode.  

 

we typical end up taking hold the line for our paladin tanks, and we give 'em a weapon that increases engagement by 1, but based on considerable paladin tank gameplay, doing so is not actual necessary to hold enemies.  a doorway is a far better option for holding foes, and there is no shortage o' doorways in poe.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps is easy to see when engagement doesn't hold a foe.  converse, is much harder to determine if engagement actual is what held an enemy.  with eder playing the off-tank role, we get far too many free disengagement attacks for hold the line to be working particular well as a defensive ability/talent. 

Edited June 25, 2015 by Gromnir

[Nobear]

So what I'm gathering from this is:

 

a) We don't fully understand the effects (if any) of whether a tank engages an enemy on the enemy AI, but it appears to make little or no difference, at least in most cases.

 

b) An increased engagement limit WILL raise the number of enemies surrounding a tank required to give him the Flanked affliction, regardless of whether he's attacking, incapacitated, or performing some other action. Therefore, Hold the Line and the Guarding weapon property are at least marginally useful in reducing the percentage of cases where the tank receives a 10 Deflection penalty.

 

c) PCs can hit enemies with disengagement attacks just like enemies can hit PCs with them. Therefore, IF an enemy leaves a tank mid-fight for whatever reason (even though this seems to be a very rare occurrence in practice), the tank will hit him with a disengagement attack if and only if it is one of the enemies he is engaging, meaning he can't be incapacitated or performing a non-attack action for this to happen.

 

d) b and c are independent (meaning you can avoid being Flanked even if your engagement toward enemies is broken), and a-c are the full extent of known effects of engagement.

 

Do I have a solid and accurate understanding of these mechanics? If I do, Hold the Line has two benefits: the situational benefit of a greater likelihood of inflicting a disengagement attack in the rare event that en enemy actually disengages while the tank's engagement is not broken (or will this just never happen?), and an increase, regardless of whether the tank has engagement, in the percentage of cases that he avoids the Flanked debuff. Is this all correct?

 

PS I do recall two examples of an enemy leaving my tank to hit someone else. The first was in the opening caravan map, when the tank would get engagement first, but the enemy would love to break engagement to attack Heodan instead. Maybe this would be more common if I were playing with melee DPS, but I'm playing with two tanks and four ranged.

 

The second example is when a Phantom paralyzes a tank (which would have broken engagement), then goes off to fight someone else. I have not noticed this happening when tanks are just knocked Prone, or when they stop attacking to do something like cast an Exhortation, only in the case of paralysis by a Phantom. My tanks can be knocked prone and enemies will still hit them. They will still serve the role of holding the enemies away from my ranged. Of course, the priest spell Withdraw also causes enemies to find another target, but I'm pretty sure this is fully intended.

Edited June 25, 2015 by Nobear

[Raven Darkholme]

I don't know where you get b) from.

Afaik 2 enemies are enough to flank a fighter with maximum engagement.

[Nobear]

I don't know where you get b) from.

Afaik 2 enemies are enough to flank a fighter with maximum engagement.

 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Flanked

 

I know that Wiki is often outdated in its info, so please let me know if you have a specific reason to believe this has changed. It reads "Engaged by more enemies than the engagement limit." If this is actually how it works, then increasing the engagement limit would increase the enemies needed to trigger this status effect, no?

[Nobear]

Well I'll be darned, that's another case of the Wiki being wrong/outdated. I read the in-game Cyclopedia and it says a flat two enemies, not "more enemies than the engagement limit." I also did some testing and watched closely, unfortunately confirming it. This was my primary rationale for taking the talent, the other being that I thought it might make the tank better at holding the enemies in place. Apparently, this might not be true either.

 

The Cyclopedia does say that, when an enemy is first engaged, it is forced to stop. But it seems enemies almost always stop at the tank anyway (if they're properly positioned).

 

To me, that says there is only one advantage to Hold the Line: the possibility of doing an disengagement attack on an additional enemy. However, in my experience, the only time most enemies will disengage is when there's a melee DPS, which I don't even have in my party.

 

So, for my party, it does seem like a totally useless talent after all. To restart yet again or not, that is the question... argh lol!

 

Edit: Well, I guess it'd be a justification to switch from Shieldbearer to Darkozzi then, seeing as I could use that extra talent to get Inspiring Liberation. Maybe it won't be too boring, as I'll be RPing differently, maybe opening up more options since I'd be free to be Aggressive. I wonder if I should also lower my Per a bit for more Might or Con, in preparation for 2.0. Not dump it, but trade a little...

Edited June 25, 2015 by Nobear

[Torm51]

Why lower your per for might and con...? Isn't per the one that's changing for accuracy? It won't give Deflection then? It's the only reason I would think a tank would not take it anymore. After 2.0

[Nobear]

Why lower your per for might and con...? Isn't per the one that's changing for accuracy? It won't give Deflection then? It's the only reason I would think a tank would not take it anymore. After 2.0

 

I decided to keep my stats the same when I restarted this last time after all  . Only difference is I'm a Darkozzi and will take both Darkozzi talents, instead of a Shieldbearer who takes only one Shieldbearer talent (which isn't as good as I thought, because of small range and duration and not applying to self) and Hold the Line which is apparently completely useless for my party composition, seeing as it doesn't work like I thought it would.

 

My stats are still 10/14/4/18/14/18. It would have been hard to give up the Per dialogue options even without the gameplay considerations. And when Deflection is traded for Accuracy... hey, it's probably not that bad, even for a tank. I mean, it's good for a tank to hit reliably even if they don't do much damage. The Darkozzi talent for FoD I'm guessing depends on FoD actually landing, like the Shieldbearer one seemed to from my experience.

 

Edit: The one thing I have to be really careful of is to not try to be diplomatic anymore, as it might be possible to confuse diplomatic and stoic, which is a disfavored trait for Darkozzi. Honest is still beneficial for quests, so that's what I'll pick if I don't see any options that seem passionate or clever. (I choose to play with the giveaway mode off.)

Edited June 26, 2015 by Nobear

[Nobear]

On second thought: no. After getting to Gilded Vale for the 100th or so time, I thought about what I was doing. I realized it won't make a huge difference in the end whether I give up one of the less exciting talents that give some more consistent benefit than Hold the Line (say, Superior Deflection). Yeah, it's going to be suboptimal based on the current build of the game, but not enough to be crippling, and I can still enjoy the game. Yes, I'm giving myself the therapeutic talk when I say "You can enjoy the game knowing your tanks are going to be some small percentage short of perfection. Let it go."

 

Instead, I would like to appeal to the developers to modify Flanked so that it does indeed scale with Hold the Line and Guarding. To anyone who has played the game since beta or the early versions, did it used to work that way, seeing as that's what it states in the official Wiki? The most common cause of wrong info on the Wiki seems to be that it's outdated. If they changed it, I wonder why.

 

Just look at the names: Hold the Line and Guarding imply that the original design intent was defensive. Would it not make sense for a fighter specialized in defensive techniques to be better able to guard himself against multiple opponents than, say, an untrained fighter or a wizard? Could we not imagine this fighter taking such a stance, and being so alert, as to better avoid being caught off guard or flanked?

 

What would be the best forum so that this appeal would most likely be seen by a developer?