Why dump Dex? Why dump any stats at all?

[Adino]

"Why dump stats? Becuase you're not getting any meaningful use out of them, naturally"

 

Yeah, like I said in my OP, I know why and how to min/max. Was asking for specific reasons why people who hate LoH felt Dex was a Dump stat for Paladins, but they pumped Might. Increase damage/healing but decrease attack rate and neglect to pump Con? Kinda pointless. I could understand if you pumped Con, Per, and Res and lightly dumped Might, Dex, and Int. At least that got you optimal tanking stats.

 

Oh, and leaving a stat at 10 isn't dumping.

[Adino]

Wanted to thank Elerond, MadDemiurg, and Nobear for their help and information.

 

I feel like I know what is driving the stats now and what my stat goals are. Thank you all for your help.

[Luckmann]

Oh, and leaving a stat at 10 isn't dumping.

I know. Hence why I said "dump below 10".

 

 

 

My paladin tank build (I should say my most recent, since I keep starting over to optimize ) is as follows: 10/14/4/18/14/18.

 

Thanks again for responding. I see a new post from you already. It's great to have someone to talk it through with. So, thinking about your responses, and assuming those stats are in order as they are listed in the game menu, I've had some thoughts and wanted to see what you thought about the concepts I've listed below.

 

 

First off, dialogue checks range from 11 to 19 points in an attribute. You can see their numbers by turning on the appropriate game option. There's one option to show the values, and another to show options you don't meet the requirements for. I have these options off, because I want an immersive experience and it feels a little like cheating for me, but feel free to turn them on if it doesn't bother you.

 

[...]

 

This reminds me of how much I hate that. There should be conversation choices lost when you dump Attributes, and checks should range well beyond 19 - it is not uncommon to have up to 24 in a given stat at any one time, later in the game.

 

Limiting it to a range of 11 to 19 and never lose conversation options favours the min/max approach too much and makes it easy to unlock a majority of options on a single character, and makes it harder to differentiate characters in terms of characteristics - such as the rogue acrobat type ending up with practically the same options as the strong knight.

[Nobear]

There should be conversation choices lost when you dump Attributes, and checks should range well beyond 19 - it is not uncommon to have up to 24 in a given stat at any one time, later in the game.

 

 

I think this would be a good idea, if the highest attribute/skill in the party was checked in dialogue instead of just the player's. I don't know though, if there should be something you have to do to make sure a character is "paying attention" when you want them to chime in, kind of like how you can select a character to pass a scripted event check. I'm not sure how this would work in dialogue, though. I guess you could choose to ask other characters for their opinion to see if it unlocks more dialogue options. This would probably be a lot of work to implement though. It would be simpler, if less immersive or interactive, to just have dialogue options automatically take into account the highest party attribute/skill.

[Adino]

Thanks again for all your input guys. Just wanted to update:

I have killed the Skydragon and found it relatively easy, thanks in large part to help on this post. (On Normal Difficulty) My defenses were in the 140-110 range (Aside from will, trailing behind at around 90.)

 

We'll see how I can get 170+ defense to take ont he adra dragon.

[Adino]

Luckmann,

 

One of two things is true:

1. You aren't willing to admit you just said it wrong, but you know the concept full-well.

or

2. You actually don't see why your statement is wrong.

 

In case scenario #2 is true, if you aren't lowering a stat to a number below 10, you're not dumping at all. Using the phrase "Dump below 10" is meaningless. You can't dump above 10, ie "I dumped my might up to 12," for instance. A dump stat is a stat that is advantageous for you to lower well below 10 because it's worth the penalties you incur, due to what you gain elsewhere. 10 is the line of demarcation because, at 10, you incur no penalties, but below 10 you do. Therefore, the usage of the portion of the phrase "below 10" is extraneous. You're either dumping a stat or you're not, which implies you are lowering it below 10 or not dumping at all. I think you are aware of what I just stated and you probably were before I wrote it, just as I was aware of what a dump stat was before you responded. Either way, if you're willing to stop defending a clearly inaccurate statement, we can move on.

 

Beyond that, telling a person something over again, after they stated they already know it, is kind of insulting because it implies you believe that they don't really understand it, as I hope you can appreciate. Your answer completely overlooked the fact you were telling me something I already understood, better than you perhaps, after I clearly explained that I understood why and how to do it in my OP. The entire comment was pointless, other than to throw your opinion out there on what was an off-topic discussion. Then, rather than letting it drop or just admitting you said it strangely and clarifying your meaning, you doubled-down and defended an obviously inaccurate statement that was completely unnecessary in the first place. The statement was wrong, it didn't need to be made or defended, and you defended it. At this point, I don't know if you're a troll or just didn't actually read my post before responding to it with a poor choice of words. I genuinely hope it's the latter and, if so, let's move on. Water under the bridge. (If you're trolling, be advised, this is the last response you'll get from me. I only responded in case you are not a Troll and this was all a misunderstanding.)

 

 

I know. Hence why I said "dump below 10".

[Nobear]

lol that's funny... Luckman a troll. He has over 3k posts and is one of the most helpful guys here. Nothing he or the other guy said was insulting. Are you a troll Adino? Because I'm questioning my wisdom responding to you.

 

Actually I don't think you're a troll, but you are showing a recurring pattern of assuming the worst in people, misinterpreting their words and thinking they're against you. I think you really believe they're against you. Unfortunately I don't know how to help you, because you probably won't believe me that they're not against you (at least not before).

 

I'd like to congratulate you on leapfrogging me and killing a dragon I am probably not close to seeing, but you make it hard to retain good feelings about you when you accuse good people on these forums of unfounded things without ever looking at yourself. Sorry.

[Adino]

Oh, and by the way, for the benefit of those that may read this thread later, I'd like to answer to answer my own question. SPOILER ALERT!

 

The reasons you dump Dex and Int on a Paladin are:

1. You need the extra Deflection - To tank the Adra Dragon, the toughtest enemy in the game, you'll need about 170 deflection. (And, 170 Fort/Reflex if you can.) Getting to 170, particularly without buffs, is very hard. Maxing Perception and Resolve is hugely important if you plan to solo-tank the Adra Dragon. If you don't have 170, you'll HAVE to pre-buff with scrolls and/or spells or you'll have a hard time without some cheese exploits, like scrolls that do way too much dmg or getting lucky with Petrify. Getting as high has possible Deflection, pre-buff, is hugely important. Just about anything below 200 Deflection is helpful against the higher-end enemies. Thanks to help from others in this thread and time spent learning the game, I can tell you that, at 170, you'll still get grazed 33% of the time by the Adra Dragon, which is a 50% reduction in damage, but still high enough to hurt. Just make SURE you're not getting HIT or CRITTED, so that you don't get wiped by bad luck - get 170 Defense.

2. Dex just isn't that important - It's seems like a big deal to a new player, but Dex doesn't make much difference in damage output - the stat doesn't give you enough bonus to make it worth losing Might, Deflection, or Health/Endurance. It also doesn't help that much to swing a little faster when you're in heavy armor and fighting enemies with very high Damage Reduction. (Not to mention, high damage output!) The important thing in this game is to make sure you do enough damage to overcome the Damage Reduction and actually deal more than 1 point of damage with each swing. ie Any way you can deal more damage per hit is vastly superior to swinging faster. After DR calculations, if you can do 6 damage per hit to a certain enemy, or do 1 damage per hit and swing 20% faster, I'd take the 6 damage every time. It's actually higher DPS to hit harder in that case. And, against the kinds of enemies that have massive DR, that's when you'll need the DPS. Another point that often gets overlooked is that you add your shield value to your Reflex defense, which is up to 30 bonus! (16 base +8 enchant +6 from sword and shield ability = 30.) This is assuming you haven't already fought the Adra Dragon to get the scale to make a Superior Shield with +12 enchant! All tanks will be benefitting from that mechanic, so Reflex is BY FAR the easiest defense to get out of Fort/Reflex/Will, if you use a shield. Reflex is hugely important, but it's much easier to get, especially if you have high Perception to compensate. Getting Might and Con outweigh Dex due to the need for Fort and high damage per hit and you can afford to dump Dex if you have max Perception and use a shield.

3. Int isn't that important - Int makes your auras bigger and increases the total healing of Lay on Hands because it heals over a period of time. The rate of healing per second is determined by Might, but the length of time it continues to heal you is Int-based. (6 seconds of healing vs up to 9 seconds, twice per encounter.) While all that seems important, if you have low Con or are taking lots of damage because of low Deflection, you'll either heal to full very quickly or you'll run out of Lay on Hands uses very quickly and it won't do you any good to have Int after that. (Or, you might die before you can cast LoH!) Also, you need HIGH Deflection and Fortitude defense, which Int does not give you. Will is the LEAST needed defense for Paladins because of Righteous Soul, so putting points in INT isn't getting you the stats you really need: Deflection, Fort, and Reflex.There are dialog options you miss out on with low Int, but not many, relatively. And, having 18+ Resolve, Perception, and Might add a LOT of dialog options themselves. In fact, Resolve has the highest number of dialog options of any of the Attributes, by far, according to my experience and what I've read. All in all, losing Int to max Perception, Resolve, Might, and/or Con is a good trade for a Paladin. Getting Deflection, Fort, and higher per-hit damage are all more important than a relatively small number of dialog options and bigger auras.

4. If you could, you'd like to max Might, Constitution, Perception, and Resolve - If you had to choose, and we all do (without console commands or hacks/mods), any one of those four is worth dropping Dex to 2 or 3 to max. Those for 4 stats are how you'll get your defenses that are needed for the most challenging encounter in the game.

5. Why is so much Fort needed and not Will? - Simple answer: some enemies use abilities like Brute Force. With that ability, your Fort is either high enough to tank the enemy or it's not.

 

I wish I'd known all that before I started and now it's there for anyone else who needs to know.

[Luckmann]

It's a matter of semantics, really, which is a common hangup amongst both trolls and autists. I thought "Dump below 10" was clear enough, really, and couldn't be misinterpreted no matter the interpretation of the word "dump". Feel free to replace it with "lower" or "reduce" if it makes you feel better, because it in no way changes the statement, nor does it become any more or any less clear what I meant.

 

I could deconstruct the sentence for you and explain it in detail to you, but honestly, semantics doesn't really interest me, nor is it relevant to the conversation unless you insist on making it so. Nothing I said could be reasonably misunderstood, nor was any malice implied, nor was my response clarifying that I know what I said intended to be belligerent. But if you're looking for some kind of apology, you're not going to get one. This one's on you.

[Adino]

lol that's funny... Luckman a troll. He has over 3k posts and is one of the most helpful guys here. Nothing he or the other guy said was insulting. Are you a troll Adino? Because I'm questioning my wisdom responding to you.

 

Actually I don't think you're a troll, but you are showing a recurring pattern of assuming the worst in people, misinterpreting their words and thinking they're against you. I think you really believe they're against you. Unfortunately I don't know how to help you, because you probably won't believe me that they're not against you (at least not before).

 

I'd like to congratulate you on leapfrogging me and killing a dragon I am probably not close to seeing, but you make it hard to retain good feelings about you when you accuse good people on these forums of unfounded things without ever looking at yourself. Sorry.

 

Me? I'm glad you don't really think I am a troll and I'm not going to get into a debate about whether I am or not. I honestly have no idea who he is or how helpful he is to other people. His posts to me were unhelpful and, to me at least, he did come across as condescending with the explanation of what a dump stat was in his first response, even if he didn't think about it that way. (For instance, does he really think, after my OP, that I needed to know why people dump stats in general?) Also, he did use the dumb phrase "dump below 10" and then he defended it, as if there's any defense for it. And, of course, none of that even mattered, in terms of the convo, because he was explaining something I'm very familiar with and didn't need or ask for a refresher on.

 

For what it's worth, I hope your good feelings for people aren't be based on whether or not they can tell if a person is a troll. I don't know the guy at all and I said it in about the least negative way I could. I could have flamed him with angry words, but instead I gave a rational response - he's either part of option 1 or option 2. And, either way, he doesn't need to continue to defend the phrase "dump below 10." You're better at forum etiquette than I am if you can think of a more reasonable way to tell someone that, not only are they wrong, they're arguing over nothing - which is essentially going to become trolling if they continue. If he keeps arguing about that phrase, I'm done with it and him. I'm responding to you 'cause I'm sure you're not a bad guy. What I said in that post are valid criticisms and factual observations, aimed at someone who is defending an indefensable position and whom I felt was speaking down to me in the first contact I ever had with that person. At the very least, he was wasting my time with the explanation of why people dump stats. Whether or not that insight into my thoughts helps you to appreciate my position or not, only you can say.

 

I started this thread hoping someone like MadDemuirg would be able to give me tangible, tested answers. I'm thankful he replied. I'm also thankful for your attempt to give aid, but I obviously wanted more specific info than you could give. To your credit, you tried to tackle the actual question, but you weren't much further along than me at the time. Even now, I'm still learning, but I'm getting a handle on it. Unfortunately, Luckmann didn't give any valueable insight to me. If what you say is true, ie that he helps lots of people, I hope his attempts are more fruitful in other cases. I'll be sure to reserve any judgement of him, as I was planning to do anyway.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Adino

[Raven Darkholme]

Since you keep referring to soloing Adra. Specifically in that fight dumped Dex is a bad idea. He also has a breath attack which hits even harder than melee.

[Nobear]

Well Adino, I'm glad to see you have come around and your last two posts here were pretty reasonable. The bottom line about the semantics thing with "dump below 10" is that I don't think Luckman actually ever cared enough to argue it fiercely or hold it against you. I think you misinterpreted his tone that way, and the rest of us had already moved on, including him. I'm glad you will hold off further judgment.

 

I'm also very glad that you have now beaten the game and learned a lot based on personal experience. The reality of anything in life is that we will never learn something as well as we can without experiencing it ourselves. We will not think to ask all the right questions, because we don't have the context yet of what types of things matter most.

 

FWIW, I agree with most of your conclusions on all points. I agree about the importance of Deflection and Fortitude, and now you see why hitting harder is usually more important than hitting faster. For DPSers and casters, though, I'd say Dex is good to max after Might (and Int, depending on the class and build), but tanks won't get the same mileage from it. I would add that your Per Encounter abilities get no benefit from Dex, because you will still use them the same number of times per encounter.

 

I still like my choice to have 14 base Int on my paladin because (once they fix the bug where auras currently grow huge and will cover your whole party anyway), 20 Int is the exact breakpoint value I need to cover my whole party. And I do consider Zealous Focus to be very important, especially for my back row. 6 Accuracy and 15% graze-to-hit for everybody is nothing to sneeze at. However, my choice does come with a tradeoff (for instance, in Fort), so each of our choices have their own pros and cons. Neither is the clear winner in every respect.

 

Finally, one justification I never mentioned for my Shieldbearer, in particular, to have "only" 10 Might (it's not like I'm dumping Might, which would definitely be bad), is that the only dialogue options Might opens up, as far as I know, are Aggressive. Aggressive is an unfavored disposition for Shieldbearers, so I can easily do without even the temptation of those dialogue options which would hurt my Faith and Conviction.

 

Overall, I'm glad to read your latest couple of posts, and to know you are apparently enjoying the game. Cheers.

[Adino]

FYI

 

I have reported a bug with Paladin's Faith and Conviction, though I can't imagine I am the first to do so. Until this bug is fixed, all discussions of how to build a Paladin are kind of Mute, as the Fighter is clearly going to be better.

 

Basic explanation: Faith and Conviction doesn't work, at all. Not for PCs or NPCs. Defender/Wary Defender does and, therefore, Fighters will have higher defenses.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Adino

[Nobear]

Adino, F+C does apply a split second after combat starts. Check my response to your thread for a more full explanation.

 

You followed good procedure in reporting it as an issue, but try to wait until it is 100% confirmed as an issue before jumping to conclusions like "all discussions of how to build a Paladin are kind of Mute, as the Fighter is clearly going to be better."

 

Your instincts were right to imagine you weren't the first person to report it as an issue, and fortunately our community is full of smart and knowledgeable players who have taken these things into account. But you are one of them now, and it's how you should report an issue in the future, just try to wait until it's confirmed as an issue (and an issue for everybody) before stating conclusions based on this possibility as definite fact.

 

Fortunately, the only change called for here would be to make this passive effect apply outside of combat as well, so it is less confusing for every new player learning how the game works (and I was one of them).

[Adino]

Since you keep referring to soloing Adra. Specifically in that fight dumped Dex is a bad idea. He also has a breath attack which hits even harder than melee.

 

 

His tail slap also hits ridiculously hard and targets Reflex. On a party member with 135 Reflex and 21 DR to the attack, it "grazed" my party member for 175 points of damage.

 

That said, I find it ironic that you point out Low Dex as a problem. Why?

 

1. You get +30 to Reflex from sword and shield style and an Orlan with max Perception can get +24 to Perception, which results in a total of +58 to Reflex. (+28 from having 24 Perception.)

2. Dumping Dex to 3 and adding +2 from an item results in a -10 to Reflex from the stat. Even if you have 10 Dex and take no penalty, you're still going to get damaged by that breath weapon, grazed by the melee attack, or grazed by that tailslap - all fairly often while in melee. (Depending on if you're behind the dragon or in front of the dragon. A party might have 2 tanks and the the dragon can target any of them. Plus, I've noticed that enemies can and do target Rogues, even though they have been engaged by the tank. This particularly occurs when knocked prone or some such effect occurs to the tank.)

3. The net gain from Perception, Dex, and Sword and Shield Style is +48 to Reflex. Not too shabby.

4. From what I've seen, having done the fight now, It's better to have larger Endurance Pool from Constitution to absorb that damage, with potions to heal and a priest at the ready, than to have a 10% lower chance of being grazed. Even at 170 to either Deflection or Reflex and 25 DR, you'll still take some serious damage from grazes.

 

You have to choose something - you can't have it all. (At least, without consoles commands or hacks.)Your Fort will be low if you lower Might to raise Dex and you'll have a harder time overcoming the DR of the Adra Dragon. Your Health and Endurance will be low if you lower Constitution to raise Dex. If you lower Resolve, you would have lower Deflection and Will. And, you won't be able to lower Int.

 

So, which stat would you lower to gain Dex and why? If I could, I'd have 24 in all stats, but that's not possible in normal play. We have to choose what we max and we have to accept any trade-offs we get for not maxing one stat or another. Are you advocating dumping a different stat or just not dumping Dex and, therefore, not maxing Might or adding to Con? What is your plan/build that gives better defenses, in total?

[Adino]

Adino, F+C does apply a split second after combat starts. Check my response to your thread for a more full explanation.

 

You followed good procedure in reporting it as an issue, but try to wait until it is 100% confirmed as an issue before jumping to conclusions like "all discussions of how to build a Paladin are kind of Mute, as the Fighter is clearly going to be better."

 

Your instincts were right to imagine you weren't the first person to report it as an issue, and fortunately our community is full of smart and knowledgeable players who have taken these things into account. But you are one of them now, and it's how you should report an issue in the future, just try to wait until it's confirmed as an issue (and an issue for everybody) before stating conclusions based on this possibility as definite fact.

 

Fortunately, the only change called for here would be to make this passive effect apply outside of combat as well, so it is less confusing for every new player learning how the game works (and I was one of them).

 

I guess attacking a party member doesn't start combat, so that could be true. I'll test that to make sure it's not just something that I missed.

[Nobear]

Ok. I mean I suppose it's theoretically possible that it could be a bug unique to you, but that seems unlikely. The good news is, despite the confusion from some passives being applied out of combat and others not, it's working for everyone else as far as I know, and hopefully for you too!

[Adino]

 

Adino, F+C does apply a split second after combat starts. Check my response to your thread for a more full explanation.

 

You followed good procedure in reporting it as an issue, but try to wait until it is 100% confirmed as an issue before jumping to conclusions like "all discussions of how to build a Paladin are kind of Mute, as the Fighter is clearly going to be better."

 

Your instincts were right to imagine you weren't the first person to report it as an issue, and fortunately our community is full of smart and knowledgeable players who have taken these things into account. But you are one of them now, and it's how you should report an issue in the future, just try to wait until it's confirmed as an issue (and an issue for everybody) before stating conclusions based on this possibility as definite fact.

 

Fortunately, the only change called for here would be to make this passive effect apply outside of combat as well, so it is less confusing for every new player learning how the game works (and I was one of them).

 

I guess attacking a party member doesn't start combat, so that could be true. I'll test that to make sure it's not just something that I missed.

 

 

Tested and you're right. Thank you! It does activate after combat. And, it effects the NPC Paladin as well.

 

I guess, then, my only remaining complaint is the fact that a "passive" ability isn't passive - it activates. (Actually using the term "activates" in the combat log.) That should definitely be addressed. No reason it shouldn't be added to your defenses while you're sitting in the inn if Defender, a Modal ability that must be activated, is added to the character sheet information of a Fighter in that same situation. That is definitely a display bug - either calling it passive or having it activate during combat.

[Nobear]

 Tested and you're right. Thank you! It does activate after combat. And, it effects the NPC Paladin as well.

 

 

I guess, then, my only remaining complaint is the fact that a "passive" ability isn't passive - it activates. (Actually using the term "activates" in the combat log.) That should definitely be addressed. No reason it shouldn't be added to your defenses while you're sitting in the inn if Defender, a Modal ability that must be activated, is added to the character sheet information of a Fighter in that same situation. That is definitely a display bug - either calling it passive or having it activate during combat.

 

I'm glad it works for you too, and I definitely agree they should make it consistent with the way Defender displays, to avoid confusion, and so it's easier to see what your stats will be in combat, which is all the time that it actually matters.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Nobear

[Luckmann]

Abilities, especially Passives and Modals, are pretty inconsistent in how they work or when they seemingly apply. For example, some Auras are always active, while others only activate during combat. I know I keep harping on it, but the "Combat Only" restriction/state needs to die in a fire. It's probably the cause of 99% of these issues.

 

Mid-game the easiest way to tell that combat has started isn't the musical cues, but the massive sudden spam in the combat log showing all the Combat Only Passives & Modals that just activated.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Since you keep referring to soloing Adra. Specifically in that fight dumped Dex is a bad idea. He also has a breath attack which hits even harder than melee.

 

 

 

His tail slap also hits ridiculously hard and targets Reflex. On a party member with 135 Reflex and 21 DR to the attack, it "grazed" my party member for 175 points of damage.

 

That said, I find it ironic that you point out Low Dex as a problem. Why?

 

1. You get +30 to Reflex from sword and shield style and an Orlan with max Perception can get +24 to Perception, which results in a total of +58 to Reflex. (+28 from having 24 Perception.)

2. Dumping Dex to 3 and adding +2 from an item results in a -10 to Reflex from the stat. Even if you have 10 Dex and take no penalty, you're still going to get damaged by that breath weapon, grazed by the melee attack, or grazed by that tailslap - all fairly often while in melee. (Depending on if you're behind the dragon or in front of the dragon. A party might have 2 tanks and the the dragon can target any of them. Plus, I've noticed that enemies can and do target Rogues, even though they have been engaged by the tank. This particularly occurs when knocked prone or some such effect occurs to the tank.)

3. The net gain from Perception, Dex, and Sword and Shield Style is +48 to Reflex. Not too shabby.

4. From what I've seen, having done the fight now, It's better to have larger Endurance Pool from Constitution to absorb that damage, with potions to heal and a priest at the ready, than to have a 10% lower chance of being grazed. Even at 170 to either Deflection or Reflex and 25 DR, you'll still take some serious damage from grazes.

 

You have to choose something - you can't have it all. (At least, without consoles commands or hacks.)Your Fort will be low if you lower Might to raise Dex and you'll have a harder time overcoming the DR of the Adra Dragon. Your Health and Endurance will be low if you lower Constitution to raise Dex. If you lower Resolve, you would have lower Deflection and Will. And, you won't be able to lower Int.

 

So, which stat would you lower to gain Dex and why? If I could, I'd have 24 in all stats, but that's not possible in normal play. We have to choose what we max and we have to accept any trade-offs we get for not maxing one stat or another. Are you advocating dumping a different stat or just not dumping Dex and, therefore, not maxing Might or adding to Con? What is your plan/build that gives better defenses, in total?

First you talk about soloing and now all of a sudden its a party with priest? Sword and shield also applies to deflection so your point is moot. What you say about reflex could also be said about def (having the stat dumped to 3 don't matter) but it shows you haven't actually done the fight solo yourself.