Adino

I guess attacking a party member doesn't start combat, so that could be true. I'll test that to make sure it's not just something that I missed. Tested and you're right. Thank you! It does activate after combat. And, it effects the NPC Paladin as well. I guess, then, my only remaining complaint is the fact that a "passive" ability isn't passive - it activates. (Actually using the term "activates" in the combat log.) That should definitely be addressed. No reason it shouldn't be added to your defenses while you're sitting in the inn if Defender, a Modal ability that must be activated, is added to the character sheet information of a Fighter in that same situation. That is definitely a display bug - either calling it passive or having it activate during combat.

I guess attacking a party member doesn't start combat, so that could be true. I'll test that to make sure it's not just something that I missed.

His tail slap also hits ridiculously hard and targets Reflex. On a party member with 135 Reflex and 21 DR to the attack, it "grazed" my party member for 175 points of damage. That said, I find it ironic that you point out Low Dex as a problem. Why? 1. You get +30 to Reflex from sword and shield style and an Orlan with max Perception can get +24 to Perception, which results in a total of +58 to Reflex. (+28 from having 24 Perception.) 2. Dumping Dex to 3 and adding +2 from an item results in a -10 to Reflex from the stat. Even if you have 10 Dex and take no penalty, you're still going to get damaged by that breath weapon, grazed by the melee attack, or grazed by that tailslap - all fairly often while in melee. (Depending on if you're behind the dragon or in front of the dragon. A party might have 2 tanks and the the dragon can target any of them. Plus, I've noticed that enemies can and do target Rogues, even though they have been engaged by the tank. This particularly occurs when knocked prone or some such effect occurs to the tank.) 3. The net gain from Perception, Dex, and Sword and Shield Style is +48 to Reflex. Not too shabby. 4. From what I've seen, having done the fight now, It's better to have larger Endurance Pool from Constitution to absorb that damage, with potions to heal and a priest at the ready, than to have a 10% lower chance of being grazed. Even at 170 to either Deflection or Reflex and 25 DR, you'll still take some serious damage from grazes. You have to choose something - you can't have it all. (At least, without consoles commands or hacks.)Your Fort will be low if you lower Might to raise Dex and you'll have a harder time overcoming the DR of the Adra Dragon. Your Health and Endurance will be low if you lower Constitution to raise Dex. If you lower Resolve, you would have lower Deflection and Will. And, you won't be able to lower Int. So, which stat would you lower to gain Dex and why? If I could, I'd have 24 in all stats, but that's not possible in normal play. We have to choose what we max and we have to accept any trade-offs we get for not maxing one stat or another. Are you advocating dumping a different stat or just not dumping Dex and, therefore, not maxing Might or adding to Con? What is your plan/build that gives better defenses, in total?

FYI I have reported a bug with Paladin's Faith and Conviction, though I can't imagine I am the first to do so. Until this bug is fixed, all discussions of how to build a Paladin are kind of Mute, as the Fighter is clearly going to be better. Basic explanation: Faith and Conviction doesn't work, at all. Not for PCs or NPCs. Defender/Wary Defender does and, therefore, Fighters will have higher defenses.

Description: All Paladins with Faith and Conviction/Deep Faith gain no Benefit from the abilites. (Not just NPCs.) Steps to Reproduce the Issue: 1. Progress through a new game as a paladin or go to a game save for a paladin character in which you may purchase multiple NPC adventurers of 3rd level or higher AND you have at least some number higher than 0 for the desired dispositions of the Player Character's paladin order. (And, 0 to the disfavored dispositions of the PC's order.) 2. Purchse 3 lvl 3 or higher Paladin NPCs and a Fighter. (All the same level.) Be sure that 2 of the Paladins are the same order as the player character, then pick an order with opposite dispositions to the player for the 3rd paladin. (Kind Wayfarers vs Bleak Walkers, for instance.) Ensure they are all the same race, base stats, and starting region. 3. Take deep faith at lvl 2 on the player's paladin, ONE of the Paladin NPCs of the same order, and on the Paladin NPC of opposite disposition. Take Defender for the Fighter and, if high enough level to do so, Wary Defender. Take Either arbitrary talents/abilities that do not effect defenses, or take the same ones for all characters. 4. Remove all items, armor, weapons, shields, etc. 5. Compare Defenses between characters. You will find: The NPC Paladins all have the same defenses, even though one does NOT have Deep Faith and one is of an order with OPPOSED dispositions. Defender and Wary Defender work just fine. The Fighter will have exactly the same base stats as the Paladins, but when you turn defender on, his stats will increase accordingly. The Paladin player character will have slightly higher stats, but this cannot be from Faith and Conviction or Deep Faith - the bonuses are too small. (+3 to all defenses if 1 level higher than the NPCs.) They seem to be benefits gained via level difference. (Since, you cannot hire NPCs of your own level.) Not counting dispositions, the Player Character should be getting at least +7 Deflection, and +15 to Fort/Reflex/Will in addition to the +3 to all defenses from being 1 level higher. Party Disposition has no effect on Faith and Conviction for NPC Paladins. (Since it is not being applied to PCs or NPCs, it has no effect in any measureable way, but the window display when you left-click Faith and Conviction in the character sheet of the PC shows a difference.) Check the window display when left-clicking Faith and conviction to verify this. You can attack a party member and see the combat data. This tooltip will reflect exactly what is on the character sheet. If the character sheet shows 62 Deflection, an attack against Deflection will show 62 in the tooltip. This proves that it is not just a display bug. Important Files: NA. Savegames NA. Following steps to recreate includes character creation steps. Output Log No error log assiciated with the issue. System Specs This information should have no effect on the stat generation of the game. However, in case it matters: AMD FX8350 NVidia GTX770 32 GB DDR3 Windows 7 Screenshots: 2 screenshots. 1. 7th lvl Fighter with Defender and wary defender active. 2. 7th lvl Paladin NPC with Deep Faith and same Order as the PC. Predictably, the Fighter has 15 higher Deflection and 10 higher Fort/Reflex/Will, per Wary Defender. Both are naked. Both have Sword and Shield Style and Superior Deflection, with no shield equipped. I can upload more later, if needed, but the recreation steps should be sufficient to show the problem. If it turns out to be a problem with my version of the aplication or that save file and it cannot be replicated, I would be happy to supply screenshots showing all the character screens for the described characters.

Me? I'm glad you don't really think I am a troll and I'm not going to get into a debate about whether I am or not. I honestly have no idea who he is or how helpful he is to other people. His posts to me were unhelpful and, to me at least, he did come across as condescending with the explanation of what a dump stat was in his first response, even if he didn't think about it that way. (For instance, does he really think, after my OP, that I needed to know why people dump stats in general?) Also, he did use the dumb phrase "dump below 10" and then he defended it, as if there's any defense for it. And, of course, none of that even mattered, in terms of the convo, because he was explaining something I'm very familiar with and didn't need or ask for a refresher on. For what it's worth, I hope your good feelings for people aren't be based on whether or not they can tell if a person is a troll. I don't know the guy at all and I said it in about the least negative way I could. I could have flamed him with angry words, but instead I gave a rational response - he's either part of option 1 or option 2. And, either way, he doesn't need to continue to defend the phrase "dump below 10." You're better at forum etiquette than I am if you can think of a more reasonable way to tell someone that, not only are they wrong, they're arguing over nothing - which is essentially going to become trolling if they continue. If he keeps arguing about that phrase, I'm done with it and him. I'm responding to you 'cause I'm sure you're not a bad guy. What I said in that post are valid criticisms and factual observations, aimed at someone who is defending an indefensable position and whom I felt was speaking down to me in the first contact I ever had with that person. At the very least, he was wasting my time with the explanation of why people dump stats. Whether or not that insight into my thoughts helps you to appreciate my position or not, only you can say. I started this thread hoping someone like MadDemuirg would be able to give me tangible, tested answers. I'm thankful he replied. I'm also thankful for your attempt to give aid, but I obviously wanted more specific info than you could give. To your credit, you tried to tackle the actual question, but you weren't much further along than me at the time. Even now, I'm still learning, but I'm getting a handle on it. Unfortunately, Luckmann didn't give any valueable insight to me. If what you say is true, ie that he helps lots of people, I hope his attempts are more fruitful in other cases. I'll be sure to reserve any judgement of him, as I was planning to do anyway.

Oh, and by the way, for the benefit of those that may read this thread later, I'd like to answer to answer my own question. SPOILER ALERT! The reasons you dump Dex and Int on a Paladin are: 1. You need the extra Deflection - To tank the Adra Dragon, the toughtest enemy in the game, you'll need about 170 deflection. (And, 170 Fort/Reflex if you can.) Getting to 170, particularly without buffs, is very hard. Maxing Perception and Resolve is hugely important if you plan to solo-tank the Adra Dragon. If you don't have 170, you'll HAVE to pre-buff with scrolls and/or spells or you'll have a hard time without some cheese exploits, like scrolls that do way too much dmg or getting lucky with Petrify. Getting as high has possible Deflection, pre-buff, is hugely important. Just about anything below 200 Deflection is helpful against the higher-end enemies. Thanks to help from others in this thread and time spent learning the game, I can tell you that, at 170, you'll still get grazed 33% of the time by the Adra Dragon, which is a 50% reduction in damage, but still high enough to hurt. Just make SURE you're not getting HIT or CRITTED, so that you don't get wiped by bad luck - get 170 Defense. 2. Dex just isn't that important - It's seems like a big deal to a new player, but Dex doesn't make much difference in damage output - the stat doesn't give you enough bonus to make it worth losing Might, Deflection, or Health/Endurance. It also doesn't help that much to swing a little faster when you're in heavy armor and fighting enemies with very high Damage Reduction. (Not to mention, high damage output!) The important thing in this game is to make sure you do enough damage to overcome the Damage Reduction and actually deal more than 1 point of damage with each swing. ie Any way you can deal more damage per hit is vastly superior to swinging faster. After DR calculations, if you can do 6 damage per hit to a certain enemy, or do 1 damage per hit and swing 20% faster, I'd take the 6 damage every time. It's actually higher DPS to hit harder in that case. And, against the kinds of enemies that have massive DR, that's when you'll need the DPS. Another point that often gets overlooked is that you add your shield value to your Reflex defense, which is up to 30 bonus! (16 base +8 enchant +6 from sword and shield ability = 30.) This is assuming you haven't already fought the Adra Dragon to get the scale to make a Superior Shield with +12 enchant! All tanks will be benefitting from that mechanic, so Reflex is BY FAR the easiest defense to get out of Fort/Reflex/Will, if you use a shield. Reflex is hugely important, but it's much easier to get, especially if you have high Perception to compensate. Getting Might and Con outweigh Dex due to the need for Fort and high damage per hit and you can afford to dump Dex if you have max Perception and use a shield. 3. Int isn't that important - Int makes your auras bigger and increases the total healing of Lay on Hands because it heals over a period of time. The rate of healing per second is determined by Might, but the length of time it continues to heal you is Int-based. (6 seconds of healing vs up to 9 seconds, twice per encounter.) While all that seems important, if you have low Con or are taking lots of damage because of low Deflection, you'll either heal to full very quickly or you'll run out of Lay on Hands uses very quickly and it won't do you any good to have Int after that. (Or, you might die before you can cast LoH!) Also, you need HIGH Deflection and Fortitude defense, which Int does not give you. Will is the LEAST needed defense for Paladins because of Righteous Soul, so putting points in INT isn't getting you the stats you really need: Deflection, Fort, and Reflex.There are dialog options you miss out on with low Int, but not many, relatively. And, having 18+ Resolve, Perception, and Might add a LOT of dialog options themselves. In fact, Resolve has the highest number of dialog options of any of the Attributes, by far, according to my experience and what I've read. All in all, losing Int to max Perception, Resolve, Might, and/or Con is a good trade for a Paladin. Getting Deflection, Fort, and higher per-hit damage are all more important than a relatively small number of dialog options and bigger auras. 4. If you could, you'd like to max Might, Constitution, Perception, and Resolve - If you had to choose, and we all do (without console commands or hacks/mods), any one of those four is worth dropping Dex to 2 or 3 to max. Those for 4 stats are how you'll get your defenses that are needed for the most challenging encounter in the game. 5. Why is so much Fort needed and not Will? - Simple answer: some enemies use abilities like Brute Force. With that ability, your Fort is either high enough to tank the enemy or it's not. I wish I'd known all that before I started and now it's there for anyone else who needs to know.

Luckmann, One of two things is true: 1. You aren't willing to admit you just said it wrong, but you know the concept full-well. or 2. You actually don't see why your statement is wrong. In case scenario #2 is true, if you aren't lowering a stat to a number below 10, you're not dumping at all. Using the phrase "Dump below 10" is meaningless. You can't dump above 10, ie "I dumped my might up to 12," for instance. A dump stat is a stat that is advantageous for you to lower well below 10 because it's worth the penalties you incur, due to what you gain elsewhere. 10 is the line of demarcation because, at 10, you incur no penalties, but below 10 you do. Therefore, the usage of the portion of the phrase "below 10" is extraneous. You're either dumping a stat or you're not, which implies you are lowering it below 10 or not dumping at all. I think you are aware of what I just stated and you probably were before I wrote it, just as I was aware of what a dump stat was before you responded. Either way, if you're willing to stop defending a clearly inaccurate statement, we can move on. Beyond that, telling a person something over again, after they stated they already know it, is kind of insulting because it implies you believe that they don't really understand it, as I hope you can appreciate. Your answer completely overlooked the fact you were telling me something I already understood, better than you perhaps, after I clearly explained that I understood why and how to do it in my OP. The entire comment was pointless, other than to throw your opinion out there on what was an off-topic discussion. Then, rather than letting it drop or just admitting you said it strangely and clarifying your meaning, you doubled-down and defended an obviously inaccurate statement that was completely unnecessary in the first place. The statement was wrong, it didn't need to be made or defended, and you defended it. At this point, I don't know if you're a troll or just didn't actually read my post before responding to it with a poor choice of words. I genuinely hope it's the latter and, if so, let's move on. Water under the bridge. (If you're trolling, be advised, this is the last response you'll get from me. I only responded in case you are not a Troll and this was all a misunderstanding.)

Thanks again for all your input guys. Just wanted to update: I have killed the Skydragon and found it relatively easy, thanks in large part to help on this post. (On Normal Difficulty) My defenses were in the 140-110 range (Aside from will, trailing behind at around 90.) We'll see how I can get 170+ defense to take ont he adra dragon.

If you had stopped there, it would have been a really great reply. Seems like the rest is an series of insults directed at me. But, ignoring most of the rest of that, can you attest to the damage output of a Barbarian? Do you use one extensively? I know your edit basically said Rogues are better, and I think you're 100% right. From a gameplay standpoint, not RP, what role does the Barb fill? Is that carnage AoE actually enough to make it good damage, compared to a Rogue, Wizard, or Cipher, if it's played correctly? That's what I'm really asking.

Your comment seems to have a bit of animosity. I'm really trying to understand how people are making effective use of this class. I don't know if it's a class you use and you feel I'm badmouthing it or if I said something in another thread that irritated you, but I'll just focus on the reason for the thread. You said it is nice single-target. I don't see how. Because, near as I can tell, the single target damage is no better than a Paladin or Fighter with the same stats and gear, unless you're half-dead. (Might, Dex, 2-hander, etc.) Paladins can use 2-Handers, get Flames of Devotion, and can get the 2-Handed Style Talent. People dog Paladin DPS, but the only thing this class has over Paladin is Carnage and a dmg boost while the character is below 50% endurance, which I hope to not use often. Outside of Frenzy, which has its own drawbacks and limitations, I don't see any real bonuses to damage on all attacks and no real crit advantage... I only see Carnage and One Stands Alone as potential DPS advantages. So, I'm asking what I think is a reasonable question of someone who uses the class: what is it about these that makes them good DPS? Is it just the combo of Carnage and One Stands Alone? (ie weaker extra attacks directed at only very close targets, other than the primary target.) Are those abilities really good enough to make Barbarian a DPS class? I mean, Rogues would seem to be clearly superior for melee damage and many people use them with ranged weapons. So, other than RP as a Barbarian, (Which I'm sure is rewarding in a video game...) why would anyone use this class when Rogues, Ciphers, Wizards, and even Druids exist? And, I'm not just flaming the game, I'm asking what role this class is supposed to fill. it doesn't seem like good DPS. It's not a Tank. And, it certainly doesn't heal the party. I don't see much Mezz/CC, except fear, which a number of other classes have anyway. So, if it's not a Tank, DPS, Healer, or CC - what is its role? (I'm genuinely asking.) It looks like it's just a moderate damage, glass-cannon Melee character with very-short-range-AoE that really only does anything special if it's about to die or is surrounded by a ton of enemies. (And, the second thing probably contributes more than you'd like to the first.) If you make it too tanky, it's low damage. If you make it with low defense to deal damage, it'll die too easy if you don't constantly micromanage it's health - just don't heal it too much or it'll lose the bonus dmg. And, what's the payout? When it takes damage instead of your tank, it can (as long as it's below 50% Endurance) do +25% damage and AoE the few enemies close enough to it to be effected by Carnage? Can anyone that actually uses this class verify what kind of damage potential it has and what mechanics you're relying on when you use it? I'm really tryign to understand how people are using the class. Does carnage reach further with a reach weapon? Anyone that can and has the time, please explain what mechanics you're relying on.

Aside from Carnage, which looks like decent AoE dmg and basically requires a 2-hander to be effective against high DR enemies, what does a Barbarian get for damage that you can't get from just about any class? I understand AoE dmg is helpful, but I've found I'm not generally hitting more than 1-2 targets at a time anyway, Maybe it's my lack of experience in the game. I see Heart of Fury, Carnage, One Stands Alone, Vengeful Defeat, Frenzy, Blooded, and Barbaric Blow. Heart of Fury - AoE attack Frenzy - a nice stat buff for might/att speed Carnage - small area AoE at lower Acc and dmg One Stands Alone - Bonus when being attacked by multiple enemies Vengeful Defeat - Other classes have an ability similar to this Barbaric Blow - Similar single buffed attack and subsequent carnage dmg bonuses after (If they would ever apply) Blooded - requires gettign to 50% Endurance and staying there. Is the combo of Carnage and One Stands Alone that good? Like, how much dmg does it add? Has anyone ever tested it? And, who would want to use Blooded? This seems like a class that doesn't produce enough damage for the trouble it gets into. What am I missing about this class? Why do people use it/like it?

Wanted to thank Elerond, MadDemiurg, and Nobear for their help and information. I feel like I know what is driving the stats now and what my stat goals are. Thank you all for your help.

Yeah, like I said in my OP, I know why and how to min/max. Was asking for specific reasons why people who hate LoH felt Dex was a Dump stat for Paladins, but they pumped Might. Increase damage/healing but decrease attack rate and neglect to pump Con? Kinda pointless. I could understand if you pumped Con, Per, and Res and lightly dumped Might, Dex, and Int. At least that got you optimal tanking stats. Oh, and leaving a stat at 10 isn't dumping.

MadDemiurg, Thanks for the info. You're confident about those numbers? 170 for Adra guarantees grazes and 150 is soild for everything else? Do you know the calculation for defense to counter accuracy? Like, if an enemy has X Accuracy, you need Y Defense to ensure only grazes and Z to be unhittable. If you do, please share. If not, thanks for the info you've already given.

15/18/5/21/3/15 So, that gives: +15% dmg/heal, +24% Endur/HP, -15% Att/cast spd, +16 Deflect, +26 Fort, +12 Ref, and -4 Will. It requires an Orlan race, I think. Compare that to: 19/13/19/10/4/13 This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +9% Endurance/HP, +27% Att/Cast speed, +3 Deflection, +24 Fort, +18 Reflex, and -6 Will. It's a Moon-godlike. Over allcomparison: 1. Fort/Ref/Will are a wash. (I might prefer the higher Reflex.) 2. My build allows for MORE damage to be done if soloing. (Or, just to get more dmg) 3. My build allows MORE healing, including Silver Tide and much larger LoH. 4. My build has LESS HP/Endur. (I counter this with the fact that Priests and Wizards have solo-tanked that thing and I self-heal considerably more with my build than this alternative.) 5. My build has LESS Deflect. ( I counter by considering party buffs and gear's effect on Deflection, which should still allow for over 155 Deflection, based on what I've read with crazy unbuffed numbers like over 170.) Alternatively, I could use: 19/15/10/15/4/15. This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +0% Att/Cast speed, +15% Endurance/HP, +28 Fort, +10 Reflex, -2 Will, and +10 Deflection. Still better DPS, Fort/Ref/Will are a wash, the difference in deflection/Endur/HP is minimal, and I still heal WAY more. The problem with me comparing these numbers is that I can't/haven't tested how much Deflection I could actually get. I guess I'll have to use the Mod program to test it. Once you've gotten enough Deflection, Fort, Reflex, and Will, does is matter if you trade off a little HP/Endur for more DPS and healing? The question still remains, what is enough Deflection, Fort, Reflex, and Will?

So, i'm thinking of a few builds that are meant to be my main character. Constructive thoughts are appreciated. They look like this: 1. Moon-godlike Paladin 19/13/19/10/4/13 Kind Wayfarers This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +27% Att/Cast speed, +9% Endurance/HP, +24 Fort, +18 Reflex, -6 Will, and +3 Deflection. What I'm thinking: Helm apparently doesn't matter and the heals with this are so nice. Getting +3 Deflection, vs +8 or +16, won't matter in the end due to many passive Paladin bonuses and items that add significant amounts of Deflection. Low Will is partially mitigated by Righteous Soul and I plan to get +Int items/enchants and +Will items to improve my Will Defense significantly and help any minor benefits to increased Duration and Area of Effect, but these are not enough of a priority for me to stack them early. Hence, why Int is a dump stat at creation. These increases in Int will help my kind wayfarers buffs to effect my allies, but I'm thinking it would only be the 2 or 3 closest melee that would typically benefit anyway, so i'm not very concerned about the AOE for the Kind Wayfarers heals. Alternatives: 1. Increase Int to 10 by lowering Con to 10 and Dex to 16, which results in 19/10/16/10/10/13. This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +19% Att/Cast speed, +0% Endurance/HP, +18 Fort, +12 Reflex, +6 Will, and +3 Deflection. Benefits over original: Better AOEs, duration on buffs, LoH, and no weakness to Will attacks. Losing some dmg due to attack speed. 2. Decrease Dex to 10, keep Int at 4, Increase Con, Per, and Res to 15 each, which Results in 19/15/10/15/4/15. This provides: +27% Dmg/Heals, +0% Att/Cast speed, +15% Endurance/HP, +28 Fort, +10 Reflex, -2 Will, and +10 Deflection. Benefits over original: More Endurance/HP, incredible Fort saves, and Better Deflection. Losing significant dmg due to +0% attack speed. My analysis: +7 Deflection isn't worth worrying about. Having Ridiculously high Fort and Reflex will benefit me more than low Will can hurt me. Being able to deal some damage means that I can be effective, even with shades and other enemies teleporting to my back row and preventing them from doing good dmg or just killing them outright, despite my best efforts. It will also increase overall party DPS. I know people downplay Paladin DPS, but they truthfully don't try. Aside from AoE dmg or a constant attack dmg buff, like a Cipher, a Paladin can do some damage. And, if I'm not dying because of huge defensive benefits, that makes it that much easier to plow content, especially in a primarily Melee party. (I know... melee is so gimp, but WHAT IF there was so much AoE healing going on amongst the party and all of them had monster defensive capabilities? Might take longer, but the job would be get done, with less "Oops! Time to reload!") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I've also considered a Cipher or Barbarian with something like 18/8/18/8/18/8. Barb: I know Carnage does AOE dmg, but is it really significant and does it benefit that much from Intellect? Can I steal from Intellect to add more Might and Dexterity? Being in Melee, without a shield, do I need Deflection from Res/Per? Cipher: Can it be tough enough with those stats, or does it need really more Deflection? How much does AOE/duration buff from Intel help the Cipher? Can I cheat a little bit there to boost Might or Dex?

I never actually asked that. I was asking why not dump both if you're really worried about tanking stats and not about Damage or heals from Lay on hands. (I've seen many forum posts and article on websites bemoaning how useless LoH is.) I tested this. With 19 Mig and 8 Int, LoH does 79 healing over 4.5 secs. With 19 mig and 18 Int, it does 108 over 7 secs. Basically, it seems to cause the same amount of regeneration per unit of time over a longer period of time, resulting in more total healing at the same rate per unit of time. Considering how people badmouth LoH and the fact I'll have a healer or two in the party, should I really care about this difference and can I easily compensate for it with gear and/or a Priest/Druid? And, should I really care about the duration on Exhortations, if I'm tanking? I mean, Reviving stil revives and those others are party buffs, not tanking abilities. (It sounds like they aren't essential, from what you're saying.)

Oh, I don't. I made a moon-godlike Pally for that ability as well. I just wondered if I was wasting my time with it because I honestly didn't know.

Thanks again for responding. I see a new post from you already. It's great to have someone to talk it through with. So, thinking about your responses, and assuming those stats are in order as they are listed in the game menu, I've had some thoughts and wanted to see what you thought about the concepts I've listed below. 1. You are minimizing Dex and have only 10 Might, so you are essentially doing a variation of the "uber tank" stat line that I was talking about in my original thread. You could have something like 8 Might, 18 Con, 8 Dex, 18 Perception, 8 Intel, and 18 Resolve. This would give you max Endurance, HP, Deflection, and Fort/Reflex/Will - which is pretty much the best and most balanced defensive tank you can make, especially on a Paladin. You can pump Intel with enchants later if need be because, other than dialog options, Intel isn't all that useful for Paladins from what I can see. Your current set up has low Reflex, as opposed to Will or Fort, and you have really high Will saves. Are you doing that because It's optimal or for dialog options or something else? 2.This doesn't seem like a powerful character build. If you're using a tank with such bad damage stats, why not just hire an NPC moon godlike and stat it out this way and play a higher damage build or a different class altogether, like a Cipher or something that uses Intel and Lore more effectively and doesn't need as much Defensive stats? I get playing a Paladin for the early-game solo ability, but with only 10 Might, it seems like you're not doing much of anything but avoiding a little bit more damage by getting slightly higher defenses. 3. It seems like your Might is really low for a Paladin. If you're using a moon godlike for the healing, wouldn't having only 10 Might be kind of detrimental to your cause? Playing a Paladin, wouldn't having 10 Might hurt your self-healing from the class? And, doesn't Might have a lot of Dialog options too? 4. Given your stated reason for using the Moon-godlike race, having a high-Might /low-Intellect Paladin party NPC should be prefereable to playing a low-Might Paladin as a main character. If you only have 10 Might so that you can pump Intel for dialog, why not just make an intel-based character and get an NPC with 18 Might, 17 Constitution, and 3 Intellect so that the character can heal for more effectively and having more HP/Endurance? (Or, just go 18 Mig and 6 Intel so as not to over-nerf the AOE effect of Silver Tide and not take quite as big a negative to Will?) 5. A Paladin that has low or no healing isn't any better than a Fighter. Have you compared the benefits of using a simlar build on a moon-godlike Fighter, since Fighters don't have Lay on Hands and can essentially ignore damage output the same as a Paladin, but they don't have class-based healing abilities that are nerfed by having low Might? Is it just that Paladins get the best/highest defensive buffs in the game? (If so, why even make a fighter? They aren't high damage either and they can't heal. And, with 10 Might and 4 Dex, nothing will do decent damage, anyway. So, it would be pure tanking stats and all that should matter are class bonuses to defensive stats at that point.) If a Paladin is superior defensively, the Paladin has self-healing, they both do low damage, and a Paladin holds aggro and fulfills the tank role just the same, why does the Fighter class even exist? If the Fighter can be better defensively if it ignores offense entirely, Fighter would be a superior choice. So, which is the better pure tank when it has low Might? It seems Fighters can engage more targets via their abilities, so they may be better tanks. 6. You haven't beaten the game yet, so I'm worried this might be a case of the blind leading the blind. I was hoping for definitive information, but so far we're just theorycrafting with eachtoher. That's perfectly fine and fun and all, but I was really hoping for more authoritative answers when i made this post originally. Thank you all the same for your responses as I always enjoy learning other's perspectives. 7. We aren't using a lot of real numbers from in-game items, so this is all speculative and not definitive. For example, you haven't cited what items you have found to be optimal, what dialog options you need intel for, or what minimum Defensive values are needed for an end-game tank. We've only spoken generally about the need for increasing Deflection as enemies get higher Accuracy and that you read that intel has the most dialog options. But, what I'm actually hoping for is a real explanation of what end-game items I should be planning to use and what the optimal defensive stats are to do the job of tanking. (Whether it's by an NPC in my party or my character.) 8. I can't tell if you're min/maxing for good purpose or just feel that Deflection is important for tanks. Having 10 Might on a Moon-godlike Paladin brings into question whether you're really min/maxing or just trying to get better defenses and dialog options and this is the best stat line for those two things, based on how you want to handle the dialog and the fact you're playing a tank. If you're using an average Might score, you aren't minimizing it or maximizing it, so it's like you're luke-warm on healing. You could have more Con and get better Endurance/HP to tank better if you aren't worried about Might. After all, why does a tank have to heal itself when there are Priests and Druids? If you are worried about might to get the healing abilities because of how beneficial they are, why not max it and lose a some intel and/or Con, since you aren't maxing either of those anyway, which indicates being somewhat lukewarn on them? (And, Con has no benefit to dialog, from what I can tell.) I mean, if you wan to be decent at everything, You can get 15+2+1=18 points distriuted among the 6 stats evenly. (+3 to all, so 13.) That way you have better healing, you don't take large negatives to Reflex, you can do a little better damage which helps the party in other ways, and you'll get lots of dialog options. You know, come to think of it, I haven't seen an option that says, Required: "Intel X" or "Resolve X." Do we know what attributes we ACTUALLY NEED for dialog options? Can anyone confirm what is needed? IN CONCLUSION: I mean, if you're really trying to min/max for tanking, but you don't need a helm and the healing/damage just isn't important enough to put points in Might, as you're doing now, be a Fire-godlike and go 8/18/8/18/8/18. That will give you the best possible tanking stats (Deflection, Reflex/Will/Fort, HP, Endurance, and DR) and you're only sacrificing 2 might and any Intel dialog options. Moreover, if you need Intel, you can buff it later with Items OR just have an NPC tank for you and you can play a class that gains real benefit from Intellect and avoid putting so many points in Con, Per, and Res. You could make a Cipher with 18/8/18/8/18/8 - literally the opposite of the tank's build, which will give tons of Dialog options, as I've seen many Dex and Might Dialog options, but I can't think of any Perception or Resolve dialog options, at least in so far as I've played. You can min/max a character, but not benefit from it at all, if you minimize the wrong stats and max others that aren't needed. I'm just trying to find out which stats, if any, can be minimized and why.

Thanks for taking the time to write again. I got stuck at 5 posts due to a forum restrictuion, but I can now respond. (First day on forums....) So, you're essentially saying that these bonuses to stats will not stack with other enchants, and I won't need the stats from the helm? Put another way, are you saying that with the The Pilgrim's Lasting Vigil (it gives +1 Resolve and +1 Perception), for example, I won't need those bonuses later on because I'll get other items with as good or better bonuses to those stats and it won't stack with the helm anyway? Or, are you just saying that I won't have to give up getting a bonus to my favorite stat because I don't have it on my helm and I can get that bonus to that stat elsewhere? (If it's the second option, I'd really like those stat bonuses on that helm. That is, assuming Resolve and Perception are all that, which is kind of the main point of this thread anyway. If 2 Deflection from those stats on that helm isn't worth it, it validates my original question.) So, would the +1 Resolve and +1 Perception matter in the end-game, PoD difficulty, or are these bonuses so low (Assuming the bonuses don't stack) that the helm isn't worth getting beecause other items will give better bonuses to those stats and the bonuses won't stack? PS: the link Nobear provided to the Helms doesn't have anything spectactular and "The Pilgrim's Lasting Vigil" seems to be the best. But, it is something you get in the first major town before you're even level 4. Is the best defensive headgear item in the game obtained at lvl 3? I certainly hope I'm not wearing the same gear when I hit level 10. PS #2: I just found out the maximum level is 12. I've hit level 5 on a couple characters already (On my first day owning the game), just doing the starter quests and getting my keep. Is the scope of the game really only 7 levels beyond that? (Or, less? Seems not everyone would hit 12, from what I'm now reading.)

Nobear, Thanks again. I wish I knew how to do spoiler tags. To follow up, if helms can give +2 and +1 to a couple of stats, that could potentially be +6% dmg, +6% healing, +4 Fort, +3% att speed, +3% casting speed, and +2 Reflex. That's a lot to give up. I know you said it scale with level. I guess the question is now, does it scale well? At 75% health, it heals my guys with 12-14 Con to almost full health. Will I see similar results as I increase Constitution and level, or will it become less effective, relatively?

Thank you for your response. Maybe you can dispute other things I've read on the forums. According to what I've read, the highest accuracy monster in the game is a dragon with like 115 or so. (At the hardest difficulty settings, PoD or w/e. If it's higher, then whatever that number may be.) If that's true, then couldn't I base those relative differences off that number? And, at that point, wouldn't maximum required Deflection be a static number that I could simply calculate and hit, but not exceed without new gear from new expansions or from party buffs? That way, I'd have maximum miss chance against anything currently in game, without buffs or the new gear that will come in new expansions. Wouldn't that eliminate the need to worry over 8 Deflection? (That's a large part of what I was basing my question on.)

First, thank you for your constructive response. I have found I truly enjoy the Silver Tide ability. However, I realized that it prevents me from using headgear because the godlike races cannot use items in that slot. I have two questions about that ability, if you can and don't mind answering: 1. Does Silver Tide scale with level or anything other than increasing Might? 2. What kind of stats would I be missing out on in the end-game from not using helms? Thanks in advance!

Oh, I thought I'd point out that MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependancy) isn't really an issue here. Fighters need all the same abilities - in fact, they have more AOE abilities. Barbarians Need Dex, Mig, and Int for damage too. Not to mention, they're high-HP glass cannons without Con, Res, and Per. (So, not quite glass, but not much better. Especially since they're melee.) Wizards need Mig, Dex, and Int for damage too, but they have really low HP. I guess you want to spend all you time buffing before each fight, killing the enemies with additional spells and/or scrolls, and then camping. (Rinse, Repeat...) Virtually any Caster is in the same boat as the Wizard. The only possible exception I've read about is the Chanter, but I don't know how great that class is for a Player's character. Not to mention, the class seems like it involves area of effect and duration, which indicates Int is required as well. (At least, to the casual observer.) Maybe some of the class's abilities don't have the same prereqs as other classes, like Mig for the strength of Chants or Int for the Area of Effect? Anyway, looking for well-reasoned response. Thanks in advance.